omega

I absolutely agree with this and my husband is my first, second, third, fourth, etc priority. I have to go pretty far down the list to find another one. And since we met, I have never gone to visit my family. I haven't seen my father in years and years. BUT the point is that I SHOULD be allowed to do so if I need to.

omega

I wouldn't keep the kids. I never said I would. I said I would think twice about coming back. I don't have children. But I could not believe that a man LOVED me if he wouldn't let me see my family for more than a few weeks at a time, if that's what I needed. So far since I met my husband, I have not seen my family. Do I miss them? Yes!!!!! Like CRAZY. But I would rather be with my husband. However, if I were to want to see my family more than I want to stay with my husband, and he didn't allow me to go, I would feel betrayed. Part of the foreign spouse deal is you accept that they are making a HUGE sacrifice to live in your country. You should be able to make a huge sacrifice yourself, once in a while, don't you think?

How far away is her country? If it's REALLY far, like mine, 2-4 weeks isn't enough. The first 10 days is just jet lag. Then the next week is seeing relatives, then before you know it you're going shopping for the stuff you want to take back home, packing, and going home. When do the kids get to FORM RELATIONSHIPS with cousins, practice the language, visit local attractions, go on trips with the grandparents, etc etc? These things are so valuable. At their age, that may not be as important - I didn't realize they were so young - but it is still important that they be given the chance to form relationships with their grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles, etc., IN the home country. You can't be from the same culture if you're from two different countries - she will always be from the culture of where she's from (even if that's an immigrant-in-that-country culture, it's still NOT the same as your culture).

I wasn't responding to her attitude , plenty of others have done that, but to the incredibly difficult position that foreign wives are often put into. I hope you can understand that a little bit.

shy_guy

THIS is the #1 thing I would like to stress in this situation. A loving husband ABSOLUTELY should make sure this is possible. I won't tell you you should go - that's up to you and you know your situation better than I. But in cases like when my wife's father was diagnosed with stomach cancer, she NEEEDED to go see her father and family while he was still alive. There are times when you go because you want to (depends on your situation, I know), and there are times when you absolutely need to. There are times when you need to phone your family - I encourage my wife to call her sisters for example. Foreign born spouses did not stop being who they are when they married us and moved away from their country and family with us. There are needs in marriages with foreign born spouses that people who have not been there just will not understand.

shy_guy

Wow! Omega! I'm SO GLAD you're in this thread. It seems there are more cross-pond marriages than I thought represented on this board. You are expressing so many things that my wife and I have had conversations about through our years together. You should start a thread specifically about marriages with foreign born spouses and what they need, and how the kids need contact with their cultures and identities, etc. I think there is a lot to be said here.

EleGirl

There is a difference between an adult going to visit their family in another country and a person taking two very young children to spend 3 months away from their father.

As a parent I would not have allowed my husband to take small children away for months. It's not appropriate at all. If the grand parents want to see the children for an extended period, perhaps they could come visit the children in their own home.

There is a real problem with one spouse taking children to their native country and never returning. It's called kidnapping. It happens all the time. I know a young lady who has been concerned about her husband's decision to visit with family in another country for a few months... taking their two boys with him. She has decided that she will only allow him to take one of their sons. I think they are having marital problems and is afraid that he has no intention of returning.

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omega

Thanks shy_guy, there are many issues indeed... I belong to a specific 'support' group in my area - and this particular issue has come up many times. Usually the husband feels that an extended trip home for the wife and children is something being "done to him" and isn't able to see that it's not about him at all - it's about the wife's relationship with her family and homeland, and with enabling children to develop a real, not just nominal, relationship with them also. They feel that they are being abandoned, or that the wife is choosing home over him, or that she is trying to assert her nationality over his, or that she is trying to get the children on board with her to convince him to move the whole family to her country. Sometimes they think it has to do with the in laws as well.

I'm not going to get into a discussion of 'kidnapping,' as I think that is a very extreme situation. What we are talking about is a woman who wants to see her parents and family, and wants her children to see them too and experience her culture. Which is proper, in my opinion.

If 3 months is too long is a discussion that each couple has to have amongst themselves. Asking on a forum 'how long is too long?' when most of the forum members are not foreign spouses and don't really know what is involved in being a foreign spouse is probably not the best way to find an answer.

But I can tell you, Arabian Knight, that if you are being honest that your time-limit on being apart from your children is actually "less than one day" then you are headed for some serious problems.

shy_guy

EleGirl, I hope my posts didn't sound like I was just agreeing with the situation. I do think it is something they should work out. There are situations (such as military) where separation in families for expended periods of time happens. Situations with foreign born spouses are just different from other families and may very well need different boundaries for amount of time for a visit.

I'm not just saying let her go have her way. I'm advising against thinking that just hiding passports is going to solve the problem. If it comes to separation or divorce, the foreign born spouse also has rights where the children are concerned, so the old thoughts about "They're in my country so by golly I'm going to get the kids" are not going to play out the way some think, either. There are going to be tense moments in negotiations even for trips home, I'm sure. My words are saying to work it out at the appropriate level and don't go into negotiations with the spouse thinking you have the hammer in your hand because she is in your country.

I fully understand what Omega is talking about, too. My wife's country is in Asia (I still will not say which Asian country in the public forum - past my anonymity boundary here). 2 weeks is an absolute minimum, and a month is really more reasonable when you're talking about visit like that. Another reason for this that Omega didn't mention is that it's expensive to make those visits so you can't make them as often as most people think. We tended to make fewer visits and make them longer when it was negotiated in our family. But both people have to consider the needs both of the foreign born spouse, and of their kids in these situations. When I say "Both," I mean wife AND husband. I'm not letting either one off the hook here.

omega

Personally, if this were my husband and I, I would not go for 3 months (I would miss him way too much) but if I were going to go, I think 2 months is a realistic period of time for a major trip like that. Anything under 1 month, I just wouldn't bother - not worth the cost of flying - but 2 months would give me the time to actually travel domestically to see friends and family (my whole family is not located in one place - traveling to see them and staying with them and dealing with their schedules and having enough time to be flexible for them as well takes time), deal with any loose-end bureaucratic issues, relax, forget about living in a foreign country for a while, just be myself around people like me for a while. Maybe it sounds frivolous to most people - maybe the idea is that 'once you make the decision to marry someone from another country, you have to give up your entire previous identity - and maybe those ideas are part of why I've never gone home - but I don't think it would be worth going home to spend a few weeks jet lagged and running around like crazy just to come home and be jet lagged some more and exhausted and have so many things I didn't have time to do. I'd rather just not go at all.

If you can't deal with the kids being gone for so long, how about working out a compromise, like she goes with the kids, then after a month you go and visit them for the 2 weeks or whatever you can get off work, and take the kids home with you when you leave, and then she comes home after the 3 months is up?

Beowulf

I think everyone is missing the point. It's not that AK doesn't want his wife to see her family. It's not that AK doesn't want his wife's family to see the kids. It's that she intends to take them for three months and doesn't give a damn what AK thinks. Folks, that is kidnapping any way you slice it.

AK, take the kids passports and tell your wife that she is not allowed to take the children. Given what she has said I would not allow her to take them at all without you. If she wants to go, let her. If she takes the kids you are taking a very large risk.

Beowulf

Did you read what she wrote? It doesn't sound like she cares what he thinks or will compromise. How about this compromise. She doesn't take the kids until her husband can go with them?

omega

Yes, I read it. We can't speculate on what she thinks or cares about.

I don't have children and so my feelings on the children side of things are not as strong. But I understand that parents do feel strongly about introducing their children to their grandparents and relatives. If I understand correctly, she visits her family for 3 weeks at a time (that is an extremely short visit for a foreign spouse - we need to be clear about that) every TWO YEARS but the children are TWO YEARS old. So the children either didn't exist yet the last time she was there, or they were newborns. So this could be their first trip. I don't know - the OP is giving almost no information - but it sounds like she needs more time with her family.

Is she close to her family? Does she miss them? Does she have friends back home that she wants to see? Is it difficult for her parents to travel to your country for health or financial reasons? SHE is the one who left - she can't expect them to travel to see her - that's not how it works. If I had a penny for every time I tried to woo a friend or relative to come visit me here, I'd be rich - but the only one who has done it is my mother. No one else. Traveling is disruptive, expensive, and for some people intimidating and scary. SHE has to go if she wants to see them and if she wants any kind of relationship to develop between her children and her family.

Obviously we're not going to agree on this. Those posters who want to see this as an international kidnapping (ludicrous in my opinion) will never see this the way I do, as a fellow foreign wife. I have no interest in trying to convince anyone but I thought I might get through to ArabianKnight that this is NOT about HIM. This is about the woman he LOVES and her wanting her children to know her family and homeland. Take it or leave it....

shy_guy

Beowulf, I understand what was said in the original post, but when reading these things, I also understand that only one position is ever represented in these questions. I get a hint that gives me a red flag later when he says he can't be away from his kids even for one day. It just sounds like there is more going on than the OP is telling us about. Taking the passports or trying to develop a position of blackmail is analagous to taking the kids without agreement IMO. That is not a negotiated position either, and it is one that is very unlikely to stand should push come to shove ... and an action like that is likely to push and get a shove.

In their situation, there is a very high likelihood that they are going to HAVE to negotiate terms where kids can visit family sometimes, and a comment including "even for a day" indicates at least some unwillingness to negotiate reasonably with her on this. If this is the case, then this sort of position, or at least the attitude behind it is likely to get reactions, and the facebook post we are given may very well be such a reaction. I think it is something they need to work out. All you have to do is put yourself in the foreign born spouse's position to realize what your recommended course of action is most likely to lead to ... and with legalities involved with that, he may be going much longer without seeing one or both of his kids in that case.


I'll add one more thing to Omega's last post about travelling: Most likely, parents, brothers, sisters, etc. of the foreign born spouse also have to work, and have just as much difficulty coming to the country into which the foreign born spouse has immigrated. It is just as much a matter of finances as of difficulty or culture. Often, the only practical type of visit if you want to see more than one or two of them is for the one who emigrated (with an e) to go back to country of origin where everyone is still. That is much more economical because of the number of people who would have to travel if for no other reason.

3leafclover

I was under the impression that the OP thinks there is at least some chance that his wife may not bring the children back. If that's not the case, then he should reconsider. Like I said before, a summer in another country could be a great opportunity for the kids, especially if it means they get to spend time with family they rarely see.

I do understand that 3 months is a long time to be away from your children, though. I liked the idea someone mentioned about negotiating to wait to take the kids when OP is able to go along, too. They could also negotiate a shorter visit this time if the kids do go (maybe 6 weeks instead).

However, if OP has a bad gut feeling about this or if there has been recent talk of separation or divorce, he is well within his rights to insist the kids not go. There's a reason why international travel requires the consent of both of the minors' parents.

Only the OP knows if this is just a disagreement that can be negotiated or if it's a risk that's too great to be negotiated.

shy_guy

Now, I think we're beginning to talk a little more reasonably. This is going the right direction, but let me push this farther with you (since I've already practically hijacked the thread ).

If this is "risk that's too great to be negotiated," then what? Is there no risk presented to his wife if he then decides to do something like hide the passports? What reasonable course of action is open to her in this case?

omega

I think that's really stretching what he said. He posted three times in this thread and none of them even remotely insinuated that he was worried about her kidnapping the children or not bringing them back! He sounds much more concerned about the length of time he's going to be separated from the children during their trip, because he's going to miss them. Of course he will miss his children! It would be extremely weird if he didn't. I bet his wife's parents miss their child too! And maybe even their grandchildren, for all I know. Which I suppose is why she wants to travel there.

He's not the only person missing a child in this particular scenario, is what I'm getting at. And if she goes without the children, she'll miss her children. The only perfect solution is for them all to go together, but he's not able to do that for work reasons, which is totally understandable. So, someone is going to have to suck it up and deal. My opinion is that the only practical solution to this problem is for ArabianKnight to be patient and learn how to use Skype. (although if they can work out a compromise, that would be a healthy step.)