General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
I've read through this thread, his situation is similar to walkaway and cheating wives, but different. I do agree that his W is looking to get something more out of life and has convinced herself this is the way.
And suddenly when I got to the end of this thread the words of my all time favorite commenter, BigBadWolf, came to mind: she just needs a spanking... seriously I think it is time to learn to lead a little, you've extended her leash too far and need to somehow bring her back in a little, getting her in the right direction may be a delicate process but once she starts coming in gravity should help you... this is not only bring her close to you but is also to make you a stronger man - I suspect bringing her back may take some time but keep it in your mind that this is your life and you need a W who can meet your relationship needs too. If you still have a sex life together this is where you start, become more assertive in the bedroom, do not feel guilty about taking your pleasure in her and expecting her participation and I feel she will gravitate towards you(assuming you have some of these doormat tendencies, I could certainly be way off base of course).
I know you don't mean "retarded" in an offensive way, but, specificity is always helpful, right? They do seem to demonstrate some psychological retardation, in that there's no depth or sincerity to their actions and that makes them seem to have slowed down in their development of self, despite these efforts.
I meant retarded in a nondescript sense, sort of like "f*** you" doesn't really mean anything but it shows disapproval.
In a more literal sense, I would say that desperate plea for attention and acceptance is some kind of emotional retardation. I can't remember where I heard this, but there's some theory out there that growing up and maturing means caring less and less about what other people think. When you're 15, image is everything. When you're 30, it's still something but not much. By 60, people simply don't care anymore. Wear the big ugly sun glasses because they work better than the trendy ones. Some have argued that this is why people tend to get happier as they get older. Caring less about what other people think means someone can be more comfortable in their own skin.
His wife seems to be going in the wrong direction. Instead of caring less, she cares more. That's going to lead to a lot of unwanted anxiety and drama down the road. Almost everyone I know has said that they felt better when they stopped caring about others.
Thank you for your responses. I have a lot to think about. I will try to answer some of the questions in hopes it will help you all to guide me a little further.
Yes, I do believe that she is no longer in love with me in a romantic way. She has not said that. In fact, she tells me she loves me often. But the winks and smiles are gone, if you know what I mean. She has never been an affectionate person, but now the affection has really vanished.
I have thought a lot about my part in this mess. I can't think of anything big that I have done. I am not perfect, but for the most part I am an honest and loyal family man, a good provider, and I never saw myself as neglectful. But when I think about it, I fault myself for not including my wife in my life as much as I should. I think I have sheltered her from my worries and didn't include her in my successes.
We have lived in the same house for 12 years (sorry, I think my post made it sound like we just moved). She has a few close friends, and they are great women. She has never had male friends (that I know of). Both of us are home every evening with the kids. There is no drinking or parties our outings. She has a pretty conservative nature. Her new style is not provocative, except maybe a little higher heels than she used to wear.
She does not work outside the home. I think the influences on her new style may have come from some the women she admires at my son's school. He goes to a private school with a number of wealthy families. My wife has to drive him to and from school, where she sees these women each day. I also think that she is trying to keep up with my 16 year old daughter who is very into her own fashion.
Her new style is an every day thing. She dresses up to go to the grocery store (red flag), but also dresses up on Saturday when we are home all day painting the kitchen.
I feel trapped. The times when I have tried to bring up our growing distance, my wife does not seem to have the same interest in the conversation. Her response is, "yes, there are some issues, but nothing we can't work through".....then she will slowly change the subject.
There is no financial strain. Even though she is spending more on herself, she prides herself in being very careful with what she buys. She still prides herself on living well below our means.
Infidelity? Certainly would explain her behavior, and is crushing to think about. It is possible, but there have been no lies, suspicious behavior, secrecy, or any other major indicators. It may very well be just a wish to be with someone else.
I am struggling with an understanding of how to lead us out of this. I have instictively done the '180' I have read about over the past year. It didn't seem to phase her much. She has seen my frustration, and I have been up-front that I am unhappy with our disconnect. But her numbness just crushes my motivation to try to work on this with her. If she truly does not love me romantically any longer, I have heard that it will not come back. I am now numb myself.
I feel like I am rambling. Sorry.
Thanks for the opportunity to write all of this out. I know there are people on here with much bigger problems than mine.
Your thoughts and advice are much appreciated. I can't just keep living this way day after day. I will listen to all of your experience as I try to come up with a plan.
IMHO the 180 is NOT what to do. I think you need to engage with her more. Do stuff together. Take her out. Take her places where what she is wearing is appropriate. Romance her. Up your game a bit. Casual if you want but classy.
Over the years I have noticed that when my wife and I get distant that when I put in real effort she gets back to being more engaged and happy. Sometimes there is a delay. She has told me after an extended spell that the reason she did not full engage right away was that she was afraid my efforts would slack off. Very poignant. I got it.
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Infidelity? Certainly would explain her behavior, and is crushing to think about. It is possible, but there have been no lies, suspicious behavior, secrecy, or any other major indicators. It may very well be just a wish to be with someone else.
Not saying she is or not, but just incase she is. Are you able to check her whereabouts, text's, fb or emails?
Honestly I think the red flag that is being missed is that his wife seems genuinely indifferent to the OP. I may be wrong but I think the OP may want to take a more direct approach to root this out.
It seems like so many that come to forum do not want to address the elephant in the room. I would suggest that the OP gets individual counseling for further insight. Of course we all know that this will evolve into the therapist wanting joint counseling. If OP's spouse refuses I believe it proves the point I am trying to make at which point I would lay down divorce as an alternative.
Thanks 3000. I think you are right. She seems to resist my efforts to do things together, but in the past I may just give up too soon. When we are together, she wants to talk about the kids, the house, the weather,...but seems to clam up when I steer the converstaion to relationship issues. The more I think about this, the more I feel like I may have been unavailable and preoccupied in our marriage. I need to think about this, but I am starting to think about my side of this more.
Hi keko. Yes. Her phone is in my name and I have checked calls. She has an old phone and does not text. She does not have a facebook or any other social sites that I know of. I spent almost two years tracking with GPS and VAR. No results. It got almost addictive, so I backed off. But if she wanted to cheat, I know that she could. It just seems I would have noticed something with my hypervigilant searching. She had no idea I was suspicious, so I don't think she is underground. If she was cheating, it would be a severe departure from her normal state, but I have heard so may horror stories from men who were blindsided.
Hi keko. Yes. Her phone is in my name and I have checked calls. She has an old phone and does not text. She does not have a facebook or any other social sites that I know of. I spent almost two years tracking with GPS and VAR. No results. It got almost addictive, so I backed off. But if she wanted to cheat, I know that she could. It just seems I would have noticed something with my hypervigilant searching. She had no idea I was suspicious, so I don't think she is underground. If she was cheating, it would be a severe departure from her normal state, but I have heard so may horror stories from men who were blindsided.
I asked because if you want to "fix" your wife, you have to diagnose the problem. So that check's off infidelity, anything else guys/gals?
you've extended her leash too far and need to somehow bring her back in a little, getting her in the right direction may be a delicate process but once she starts coming in gravity should help you... this is not only bring her close to you but is also to make you a stronger man - I suspect bringing her back may take some time but
I'm sorry, but she is not a dog or an animal in need of taming. The fact that she has changed does not simply mean that she is a misbehaved animal. You can't "rein in her leash" because she shouldn't be on a leash in the first place!
Your analogy is endorsing some seriously controlling behavior. Isn't she allowed to grow and change as a human being? This kind of analogy just reinforces the idea that she should submit to whatever her husband wants her to be because she is a pet or a slave or an object, but if OPs wife doesn't want to be a slave, she shouldn't have to be enslaved just because he doesn't like these changes in her attitude about herself. Talking to her about the effect that her interests are having on him is one thing (most people want to please their partners and will compromise for that purpose if asked; it has to go both ways, though), but you're telling him to dominate her. Manipulating her into changing back (you're saying it's going to be hard to "rein her back in") is like inviting power struggles that could lead toward abuse.
I imagine you're just being "playful" with your language, but, there's an attitude behind it that could be troubling. You shouldn't coerce someone into being who you want him/her to be and you can't assume you own or control another; that's domination and could lead toward psychological abuse. If a guy wants to be an alpha, he should inspire his wife to see him that way by being a better man, not dominate her until she does so.
I am not trying to pick on you. I'm not being too sensitive. I just see this is troubling. Such a mind-set could backfire big-time.
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Originally Posted by Lon
keep it in your mind that this is your life and you need a W who can meet your relationship needs too.
This is so very true!
You sound deeply unsatisfied because your needs are not being met by her and that is a reasonable expectation to have of a life partner, if they are reasonable requests. You can't change her to fit those needs, but you can ascertain whether or not it is possible for you both to meet each others' needs. Maybe you two can date more and talk more and can connect again and you will both voluntarily compromise for each other out of love.
If you are not attracted to the person your wife is becoming and cannot accept the changes she is making in her life, then you should talk to her about this new incompatibility between the two of you. It saddened me to hear that you were "embarrassed of her" when she is just trying to make herself better in whatever way that means, as if it was ridiculous to you that her behavior and attitude could be authentic. How would you feel if she were embarrassed of your complacency? I don't mean to imply that you should change your feelings or be dishonest about them, but they are indicative of a serious disconnect between the two of you. Not only do you see her as undesirable, you see her as worthy of contempt (her attempts at change are seen as pretentious), and you say that she is making derisive comments toward you as well. So, that disconnect is happening on both sides. It's definitely time for you guys to talk about your problems.
You BOTH deserve to be with people who love and respect you; if you're in a place where you're not being loving and respectful to each other, try first to see if that can be negotiated before resorting to manipulation or rejection.
If she hasn't had an affair, she may be ready to. Surely, someone has complimented her on her new style, and she has probably been attracting the attention of other men.
Has she been frequenting the dr's office more often?
moxy, indeed I was being playful with my words, by "leash" I didn't mean a literal one, however I did intend to imply a certain element of control... I don't mean arrogance or unfairness or mistreatment, just simply that SOMEONE needs to be protecting some boundaries in the relationship and it seems over time that the OP's W is becoming more indifferent.
What I am saying from experience, is that if one spouse is becoming disinterested, but could become interested again if the other spouse shows a willingness to take control over things in the marriage, bedroom and household, then why the heck wouldn't they? You say it sounds controlling as if controlling is automatically a bad thing. I agree sometime "too much" control may push the other away, but I know with certainty that too little control just lets them drift away instead, like what is happening in this story.
So my advice still stands to the OP: be a little more controlling, not abusive or repressive, just simply become a dominant force in your own life, and if this even means being more patriarchal, well maybe that is just the role your W needs you to do even if it goes against what you've always tried to believe, and even if she is vocally offended.
Yes I will get some flak for this point of view for sure, but the dynamic in every relationship is different and if OP can easily adapt to suit his W's needs, and her needs fit within the world he wants to make then who cares if this sounds old fashioned or sexist to outside observers.
she tells me she loves me often. But the winks and smiles are gone,
...
She has a pretty conservative nature. Her new style is not provocative,
...
She does not work outside the home....influences on her new style may have come from some the women she admires at my son's school....daughter who is very into her own fashion.
...
Her new style is an every day thing. She dresses up to go to the grocery store (red flag), but also dresses up on Saturday when we are home all day painting the kitchen.
I suspect she is just trying to feel better about herself. She's aging and wants to feel desirable and alive. She wants to feel confident. Dressing up is not a red flag if she's doing it for you, too. It's a sign of building confidence and self-esteem.
Also, I bet she probably does want more romance. Maybe her changes are an effort to spice things up and she doesn't know why you're not responding and feels resentful.
If she's not naturally affectionate and what you're used to is fading, her guards are up and she's being defensive.
You mention you've been distant with her in the past? Maybe you need to be more affectionate and loving to get her to open up, too.
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Originally Posted by Perpetually Perplexed
I feel trapped. The times when I have tried to bring up our growing distance, my wife does not seem to have the same interest in the conversation. Her response is, "yes, there are some issues, but nothing we can't work through".....then she will slowly change the subject.
It may very well be just a wish to be with someone else.
Don't assume she wants someone else. Maybe she wants you and just isn't connecting to you.
Maybe she's afraid to talk about it with you. She is telling you that she is feeling this disconnection too, it sounds like. Maybe she doesn't know how to talk about it or is embarrassed. She seems to think it can be fixed, but won't say what it is.
Have you tried very firmly just asking her "Why are we disconnecting? Why are you withdrawing? Can we do something to make this better? What do we need to be working through?" As long as you make it a "WE" thing not just something you're expecting her to do, you should be able to draw out of her the reason that she isn't giving you that is there.
She shouldn't expect you to read her mind, but you could be more forthright and insist that you guys talk about the problem. Maybe she's 180-ing you and you're 180-ing her and you're both confused. The point is, you're not talking about what the problem is and the cold shoulder isn't going to solve it. If you've been distant in the past, the 180 isn't being more distant, but being more romantic.
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Originally Posted by Perpetually Perplexed
But her numbness just crushes my motivation to try to work on this with her. If she truly does not love me romantically any longer, I have heard that it will not come back. I am now numb myself.
Don't give up. People fall in and out of love. It doesn't have to be over. It can be fixed, if you both want it to be.
Go read "The Five Love Languages" and "His Needs Her Needs" and do the "Marriage Builders" stuff and get a marriage counselor. You can't give up before you've tried everything...right?
moxy, indeed I was being playful with my words, by "leash" I didn't mean a literal one, however I did intend to imply a certain element of control... I don't mean arrogance or unfairness or mistreatment, just simply that SOMEONE needs to be protecting some boundaries in the relationship and it seems over time that the OP's W is becoming more indifferent.
This is fair. It almost sounded like you were saying he needed to make her change back into who she used to be because he didn't like the new her. However, it sounds like you're actually saying he needs to take more of an initiative to win her heart back. I agree with that whole-heartedly!
Hi moxy; Your response hit a nerve. You are right. She should really be more embarrassed of me since I am the one who still wears jeans and a t-shirt to church. Just kidding, but there is some truth there too.
I feel bad about my comments about being embarrassed for her at Easter. I hope I don't dig myself deeper, but both of our families have not been as fortunate as we have, so I felt uneasy when she came dressed expensively, and talked about our upcoming Mexico vacation.
I actually am attracted to some of her changes. I love the new long earrings, higher heels, and some other things she has done to improve. I think I am just defensive and threatened because it doesn't seem like any of it is being done for me. The more she improves herself, the less it seems I matter in her life.
Hi Southern Wife: Doctor's office? I don't think so. I'm not sure I understand your question.
I feel bad about my comments about being embarrassed for her at Easter....but both of our families have not been as fortunate as we have, so I felt uneasy when she came dressed expensively, and talked about our upcoming Mexico vacation.
So, in context, it felt like she was showing off a little and she didn't see that, so you were embarrassed. Sometimes people act like fools without thinking about it because they're just not thinking about how they're coming across. Is she insecure and overcompensating?
I understand this a little better, because you don't want her to be a braggart or a snob or insensitive to the circumstances. I imagine that both your families love you though and wouldn't feel slighted by your successes, maybe she just felt excited and proud of how well you were both doing and wanted to share her happiness. Did anyone else see it as out of place or snobby? If you're worried about that, maybe you might be able to say to her next time you guys go to a family thing, "Maybe we could both be a little more casual, because So-and-so might feel embarrassed that they can't afford what we have and we don't want to seem insensitive?" and you could meet her half-way by dressing up a little while she dresses down a little? Is it possible that it just didn't occur to her that it could be seen that way? Or, maybe you could try dressing up a little more and see how it makes you feel, too?
Neither of you should be embarrassed of the other (nor should you hide your feelings if you are), but the fact that you were embarrassed shows that there's a disconnect.
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Originally Posted by Perpetually Perplexed
I actually am attracted to some of her changes. I love the new long earrings, higher heels, and some other things she has done to improve.
That's good! Do you ever compliment her? If she is dressing up and making an effort and you show her that you've noticed her, that will make her feel good about herself and it will make you feel good by making you aware of the positives. My dad almost never complimented my mom because he always thought, "she's gorgeous, why do I need to tell her?" and she always felt that he didn't really care that much about the efforts she were making to be beautiful, which were both for her sake and also for him.
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Originally Posted by Perpetually Perplexed
I think I am just defensive and threatened because it doesn't seem like any of it is being done for me. The more she improves herself, the less it seems I matter in her life.
Why do you think none of it is being done for you?
Are you feeling a little insecure or like you're not getting any attention from her? Have you ever just said "I miss you. I miss getting attention from you and feeling special. Can we go out on a date, just the two of us and be romantic with each other like we used to be?"? For many women, knowing that we are wanted makes us want the guy, too -- especially when we already like him, which in your case, is true. Knowing that she is wanted by you and desired by you might in turn, inspire her to be more generous with her affection. If you do this all the time like every day, then it seems needy, but once in a while...acknowledging that there's a rift between you just encourages the other person that you don't want that rift to be there.
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Re: Where did my wife go? Mercedes Syndrome. 
