that_girl

That's called dating.

No, hubs won't be dating anyone while married and neither will I...unless it's each other.

__________________

Jeff/BC

OK, Carol and I are in a "sort of open" marriage now. But really, it's more open for me than her. Still, I'd have no compunctions about her watching movies at a male friends house or <insert plausible scenario you dream up here>.

The same has been true long before our marriage turned weird. We started out pretty normal but this sort of thinking has never been a feature of our marriage.

Jeff/BC

You REALLY need to let this go. So Carol and I are 57 and 48 respectively. We've been a couple for 17 years and married for 15 of them. Things seem to be getting better and better year by year. At what age and at how many years of marriage do we gain credibility?

Why can't you believe that this sort of thinking just has no place in our marriage or our brains? We both agree that if we even STARTED to think like this our marriage would already be so broken that divorce would be a great choice.

Everyone is not you.

edited to add
Note that I do not necessarily think that other couples can or should do what we do. That's not the point. The point is that just because YOU can't imagine my marriage doesn't mean that it cannot exist.

And adding further, I gave Carol the most outlandish scenario I could think of that didn't directly involve sex. "What if the model gorgeous 30 year old at work invited me and me alone to go nude hot tubbing with her at her private cottage in the woods." Carol's response? "It'd be good for you. You need to do more things like that." Note that her response has nothing to do with our alternative and semi-open marriage. The same would've been true pretty much any time after the first year or two.. maybe even before then.

By the way, I'd be fine with the similar situation in reverse and again, having nothing to do with any open-ness.

Entropy3000

I had you in mind when I posted this. LOL.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Entropy3000

I had you in mind in particular but also others in general when I posted this.

I am 57. Been married 35 years. I made my worst choices at your stage in marriage. That was just me. I learned from them. I was younger when I made them. I do not dwell on your marriage. You are just outspoken about your views about being sort of open.

Realize that at least one of the people posting this is not married and claims to still be a virgin. Others are getting divorced for other reasons and still another had their husband fall into an EA. Anoher never admitted to dating. Just hanging out with friends.

It is very common with young folks who are still hanging out with high school friends yet "married" to be very naive about what marriage is. Some may indeed want an open marriage. So they could say my spouse and I have an open marriage but these are our boundaries.

So indeed no I will not get off of this. The fact is that having experience in life and in a real marriage is quite different from imagining what it should or might be. It is naivete and idealism. In your case you should indeed know better. So you have made your choices with eyes wide open.

Most young couples are still in their infancy of figuring it out. I agree that we never figure it out altogether.

Lets make note that you go on record ( in a sort of open marriage ) see no problems with what some would refer to dating others. Hanging out with members of the opposite sex is ok.

That said, you have also gone on record that when your wife is propositioned she is to have them call you and explain what they wish to do with your wife and ask you permission to do so. If I have this wrong I sincerely apologize.

I just want to be clear we are not just talking about having friends. We are talking about what amounts to dating other people. A couple choosing to that is cool but lets not be vague about what is going on. Lets not call it hanging out with friends. That is unclear. Lets call it hanging out with an opposite sex friend and spending one on one private time with them.

You are hosest to admit to this. That is very cool. Others kinda kibitz and use vague wording when they really are wanting to cake eat a bit.

But to answer your question. I think you gain credibility over time. Not being married has pretty much zero credibility. It takes a few years to wise up. Sometimes it is more about dealing with events than time itself. I think once a couple has gone through soem tough times that gain some real credibility. Rough times does not mean marriage trouble per se. It is common for single friends to have all sorts of advice for their married friends concerning marriage. Kinda like giving advice to an astronaut about going into space.

Smart people learn from their mistakes. Really smart people learn from others mistakes.

I also think what you do in your marriage is fine for you. But it is good for folks to be able to see what your marriage is all about in the context of your advice.

It makes sense that you would agree to couples dating. So I get it.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Love Song

I speak from experience when I say that a platonic friendship of the opposite sex can work while in a marriage.

When it comes to my male friends I have clear boundaries. There are things I could do with a female friend that I can not with a male friend. But I truly enjoy having both for the reason that guys are such different friends than women are.

I may or may not discuss things about my marriage with a guy friend. It honestly depends on how well I know and trust the guy and how well I know what his intentions are. I have to be sure I always make myself clear (so that I am not misunderstood) that however frustrated I may be with my husband, I still want to work through it with my husband. Sometimes I will mention to a guy friend something my husband does and ask his opinion from a males perspective why my husband is the way he is. Taking this approach has helped me to understand my husband better.

That being said I know that there are some guys who will never have truly platonic friendships with a woman because they don't fell that they can. That type of guy might pretend to want a friendship but in my experience these are the guys that have ulterior motives. They say you are just a friend but are really waiting for the right opportunity. I've come to see a pattern of being more clingy from these guys. Not all of them but usually they are.

Now even though I do have male friendships they NEVER come before my husband just as my female friendships do not. I will not cancel a date with my husband to do something with a male friend.

Also I am very transparent in my friendships with guys. My husband can ask me anything about what we talk about, when I see him, etc. He knows all of this information. And sometimes he will try to warn me "I think this guy likes you" and because we are a team I will have my guard up with this person. And when this person starts dropping hints, I drop them.

I'm a very social person and thankfully my husband has not tried to change me. That would only cause problems. But I have strong boundaries and my husband always comes first.

Entropy3000

An in your case it was actually your husbands best friend who groped you and wanted a threesome with you. So he has been friend challenged for sure. We know this was not your fault. Your husband had an idiot for a best friend.

Does your husband know before you are going to go out to see one of your male friends? I see he is free to ask about it, but does he know up front?

To be clear what are those activities? Lunch. Dinner. Hang out at his place? Are these single guys? Most of us have opposite sex friends. But it varies in the interactions.

You indicate you would not cancel a date with your husband for your friends, but have you ever told your hubby not you cannot go because you are going over to Bob's house and hangout?

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Love Song

Jeff/BC

I totally agree. I've said about as much about my the weirdness in my marriage as is appropriate here. I've at least tried to offer disclosure within the boundaries that would be acceptable here.

My point remains though. The elements you're discussing here have nothing to do with our alternative arrangement. That started maybe 11 years into the marriage. We had a decade when such things were unthinkable. But still, this concept of "trust" that you're talking about is not how we see it.

Even further, while it's true that certain situations portrayed here don't directly apply to us, there are still lots and lots of ways in which we can cheat... act with significant dishonor betraying the trust of our partner. We're not living in some wild wild west, no-rules free-for-all scenario. We are still bounded by things like love, honor and commitment. There are plenty of ways to betray.

Neither of us believe those ways are likely enough to worry about. We both think lightning strikes and asteroid impacts are of significantly greater concern.

Not everyone has to see the measure of trust the way you do. Everyone who disagrees is not necessarily either naive or too alternative to count. Again, the same was true of us long before any weirdness.

Some of us.. me in particular... might choose betrayal over your concept of trust. I could survive betrayal -- it would hurt, I'd down a few gallons of ben & jerrys, but eventually I'd cope. I could never endure a marriage with the kind of trust you talk about.

Entropy3000

Jeff, I never said anyone has to see it as I do. You seem to be a bit challenged by this forum. But I do wish to share my perspective. I also wish to understand other peoples perspectives.

It is Talk About Marriage. This particualr topic is very fundamental and important. It is a nice break from talking to people who have already been in the train wreck.

It is my way to ask questions. There is a broad range between asking are opposite sex friends ok and a full blown open marriage. They are infinitley different questions. There is a broad swath in between. So I ask questions about the shades of gray because people can say very similar things and be envisioning quite different things. Folks use vague terms like hanging out with friends. So is this a a way of winking and indicating that there is dating going on? I don't think so. But I could be wrong. It could be that what folks are saying works for them is indeed dating. I am not judging them but I am asking them to be clear about what they mean. I think this is all about real marriages and where folks put their boundaries. So what is ok with opposite sex friends and what is not? Big territory to choose from. Is this not a good forum for folks to clearly state what their boundaries are? That could be very helpful for other folks.

So what does hanging out really mean? I could construe that to mean going over freinds house and cuddling up on the couch together. In a brotherly way of course. But it could be just meeting for lunch. It could mean sleeping on the couch overnight. It could mean meeting with a group of friends.

I do not have to agree with you and you do not have to agree with me. In many ways we validate each other.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Love Song

Does my husband know before I go for an activity (not sex) with a guy?

It depends. If it was planned then yes my husband will know beforehand. Another reason I like to tell him beforehand is so that if he has a problem with the activity or anything I can change plans. My husband has actually said to me before "I would like to be able to do that with you first." So he may not have a problem with the particular person but regardless there is usually a time to talk about it before the activity.

But sometimes things come up unexpectedly like having lunch at work with (I've had that happen before when I was working) a male coworker. My husband didn't know this beforehand but I told him after. He had a few questions as he always does and that was that.

What are the activities??

I've done lunch, non romantic dinners with several people, concerts, hanging out at his place. For me it's not strictly about the activity, it's about who all is there. Some things are ok to do one on one but other activities are not. And yes some of my guy friends are single and some are married. One guy that I met was involved but the relationship didn't last so he is now my single friend. I talk to a lot of people so it varies.

Have I ever told my husband that I cant go do such and such with him because I'm going to do something with Bob?

No and this is another reason he needs to know my plans in advance. I expect him not to plan anything when I already have plans, the same with my female friendships and plans with them.

For male and female friendships while married, I think the key is communication. If ever my husband has an issue with any thing about it he can talk to me and he knows he can. He knows I put him first and he has no reason to feel there is a threat from anyone. Once he asked me to just not go out so much. He said that he missed me and that he would like me to stop going out so much. He wanted to do more with me. I slowed down because for me my marriage is first and what he was asking wasn't unreasonable.

Entropy3000

Thank you for your candor and not getting upset with my question. We have a much better view of what you are talking about now of what works for you guys.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Love Song

Your welcome Entropy I didn't mind at all.

Jeff/BC

Agreed. In fact I sincerely doubt either of us can be said to be "right" or "wrong". It's merely two different life experiences with two people evaluating things differently.

I don't argue you're right to see things as you choose -- for you. But when it goes further than that... when it begins to read like your viewpoint is the only sane and sensible one... that's when I stepped in.

I do have an alternate viewpoint regarding trust and I'm willing to plant the flag in that ground and defend it. I don't need to deny your flag in your ground but I'm not abandoning mine.

Yes, both Carol and I can have friends of the opposite sex and that has nothing to do with alternative anything except, perhaps, for trust.

Goldmember357

In my experience no not at all it rarely rarely works. Now having friends that you and your spouse both hang out with and they are a couple that can work of course than there is a risk but if you two only meet them than it is different.

Know Self Respecting woman who is worth something would keep set friends and continue to see knowing it hurts and bothers her spouse

and

Know self respecting man who is worth anything would see set friend and continue to see them knowing it hurts the spouse.


To fight over such a thing shows more than a platonic interest in set friend. However this in my opinion only works in marriages when you are dating unless a very long term relationship its rather hard to regulate control friends and nor should you as when you date you need to be open minded also dating is PROCESS OF ELIMINATION .