General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
View Poll Results: is spying (keyloggers, fake profiles) right or wrong for any reason?
My wife used the "you betrayed me" tactic when confronting me right up until I threw her secret bank account in her face. I didn't betray a thing. If anything I demonstrated that my marriage was important enough for me to sneak home and pay money to install the truth on her laptop that I wasn't getting from her.
Betrayal? She spent time trashing our marriage to a friend on the lap top I just bought her with the high speed internet service I provide at 3 pm while lying in bed because she doesn't have to work. I'm getting pissed thinking about it. The only regret I have is the tear I shed while installing it because I couldn't believe my marriage had come to this. Guess what? My actions were completely justified.
maybe I am naive, but I trust my spouse and she has never given me a reason not to.
I trusted my wife more than I have ever trusted anyone else. We have gone through so much together during our 13 year relationship that I had no reason to ever doubt that she would always be behind me fully, and would never do anything to hurt me. She was the love of my life, and I had absolute trust for her.
Needless to say, she betrayed me, had an affair and destroyed all of that. I now doubt that I will ever be able to trust anyone again, at least to the extent that you seem to think that we should.
I confronted my wife three times before I finally got her to admit to the affair, and I only found absolute evidence by, you guessed it, spying.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If I am expected to invest in arelationship; to forsake all others; to either spend all my free time with my partner or else account for it....and never mind what you sacrifice when you actually get married and live together......then dammit, I am owed the truth and when I am not getting it I will go about getting it whatever possible.
If my partner wants to think that SuzyQ is much nicer because she doesn't worry about those things when the the truth is that SuzyQ rubs his ego for a few hours and then goes back to her partner.....this is just crazy.
No I will not be led to buying a house or investing in my partner's business venture when he is cheating on me.
Have you of naysayers ever heard of the expression "due diligence?"
If you want to save the world from snoopers why don't you first start with employers who hold people's livelihood on the lines. Those people who are influencing legislators for the right to demand user names and passwords to a job applicant's social media memberships.....Facebook and all the others.
why are you dogooders coming after the little guy. Do you prefer being ****ed over by Corporate America while **** over your own partner?
I am new to this forum and I have never suspected my wife of cheating. I have learned a lot of new terminology and my wife and I do have a Transparency (thanks po12345).
I do not know what I would do if I was in that situation and I could turn to such "devious tactics" but I would like to think not. thanks for your input, I have learned much.
the betrayal is there when you use these tactics. of course your spouse will not come out and say "yeah you caught me, ha ha ha" but fake profiles and keyloggers to me is a violation of privacy if i want to talk to a friend, family or tam and I my wife is reading my every word, that would piss me off when all she has to do is ask. And to those where this is a reoccuring issue...common denominator? and yes I have been cheated on by a girl before but it is kinda obvious especially if you pay attention to your relationships.
i think taking those measures violates the trust. my wife knows all my passwords as well and I have never erased the history unless i was trying to suprise her with a gift.
my question has been answered and I learned that I am naive(ha ha). thanks I enjoy hearing others perspectives and i will agree to disagree
Indeed you are on the ball about privacy issue! consider this though, my wife is having an EA. When I discovered this by helping to fix her computer, she never told me about the EA. Over the past month my life has been brutal to say the least. She deleted her history, most of the incriminating texts (a few hundreds), clean the trash, delete email messages, everything to cover her track. The only way I figured this our all of this out because I am quite fluent with the computer and Iphone, but It was hard work to recover deleted messages. I now know she is underground, because I realized she has another email account. So what do you say about this? Is a keylogger acceptable in this case? Oh, we been married for 20 years!
Indeed you are on the ball about privacy issue! consider this though, my wife is having an EA. When I discovered this by helping to fix her computer, she never told me about the EA. Over the past month my life has been brutal to say the least. She deleted her history, most of the incriminating texts (a few hundreds), clean the trash, delete email messages, everything to cover her track. The only way I figured this our all of this out because I am quite fluent with the computer and Iphone, but It was hard work to recover deleted messages. I now know she is underground, because I realized she has another email account. So what do you say about this? Is a keylogger acceptable in this case? Oh, we been married for 20 years!
I've found it's pointless arguing with someone who's never been betrayed by their spouse / love-of-their-life / long-term marriage partner. Just about everyone says an affair is a deal breaker and they wouldn't bother to stop someone who wanted to leave them. They just can't conceive of a spouse who does everything physically possible to secretly cheat without lifting a finger to exit the marriage. It is just not something within the realm of their imagination. Let them cross that sad bridge when the come to it. Their eyes will be opened. Maybe they still choose not to snoop--but they will finally gain an understanding of what it's like to be in our shoes. Until then, wish for them the good fortune of never having to face the choice.
Whats devious, cheating, lying and destroying a family or trying to bring transparency to a marriage?
more to the point--the thread starter says they have transparency. I certainly always have been an open electronic book as far as my husband is concerned.
So what happens in a marriage where one partner is transparent, and the other is not? Do not pass Go, do not collect $200, straight to divorce? Hardly.
Well, once lawyers are involved, it's beyond me why someone would spy. Spying at that point is about getting the best of someone in a divorce. That is not what moxy and I are talking about. That is about revenge; moxy and I are talking about saving marriages. And no, of course it doesn't always work. Of course there are marriages that were irreparably damaged, and marriages where the disloyal subconsciously wanted to get caught so the loyal would end the marriage.
I understand the importance of detecting a transgression early enough for reconciliation, so I'm extremely sympathetic to your perspective here.
I want to emphasize though that the point if no return is not when attorneys get involved; it's much earlier than that when the boundaries the law has set on a person's privacy are actually breached. When this is done with an electronic device, it leaves evidence that can be detected for a long time.
In the end, we all have to judge the risks versus benefits of any decision for ourselves, so I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do.
I'm just pointing out that on this subject, the 'tribal wisdom' of the internet is wrong, wrong, wrong. Spying on your spouse with a keylogger can in the worst possible case, result in a felony conviction and four year prison sentence. This has happened in Texas twice now.
I understand the importance of detecting a transgression early enough for reconciliation, so I'm extremely sympathetic to your perspective here.
I want to emphasize though that the point if no return is not when attorneys get involved; it's much earlier than that when the boundaries the law has set on a person's privacy are actually breached. When this is done with an electronic device, it leaves evidence that can be detected for a long time.
In the end, we all have to judge the risks versus benefits of any decision for ourselves, so I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do.
I'm just pointing out that on this subject, the 'tribal wisdom' of the internet is wrong, wrong, wrong. Spying on your spouse with a keylogger can in the worst possible case, result in a felony conviction and four year prison sentence. This has happened in Texas twice now.
Yes and no....remember Deep Throat. If he had been discovered at the time, he would have probably been thrown in jail as well. But at least, he gave W & B enough info to ask the right questions.
And I am sure most Americans, old enough in any case, still breathe a sigh of relief.
Yes and no....remember Deep Throat. If he had been discovered at the time, he would have probably been thrown in jail as well. But at least, he gave W & B enough info to ask the right questions.
And I am sure most Americans, old enough in any case, still breathe a sigh of relief.
--Not trying to be argumentative. Maybe I just need a second cup of coffee. I think I see the analogy with W.M. Felt from an ethical standpoint, but I believe the legal issues were very different.
It's been asserted more than once on TAM that joint property law trumps privacy law. It's been asserted more than once on TAM that marriage provides a legal right to any and all information where your spouse is concerned.
I understand the importance of transparency in marriage a lot better now, then I did six months ago, but that transparancy is an ethical, not a legal right. When it comes to marriage, the two are not the same at all.
I guess in the end, the reason I keep pointing out that the use of keyloggers is often illegal is to salve my own conscience as an I.T. person.
Octillo, but bosses check up on us as well. they read e-mails, sometimes as they come in and unabashedly comment on them. They engage in gossip with other people in the department to find out how you're doing. In some ways I agree with, a boss needs to be in control of his business /department / whatever.
But then we can say the same about personal relationships. I don't see too many people balking over a parent's need to know who their child is interacting with. The opinion is divided between the married partners......but I think after reading a few my posts, my opinon about it is pretty clear.
i never said take them at their word. but i dont think two wrongs make a right.
you find proof or you suspect an affair based on whatever facts you have, so now you make a fake profile on a cheating site and add to the population of the site! once you find it confront and put an end to it or end the relationship cause most likely your spouse is cheating.
if your spouse is getting text's from a strange number...confront your spouse, find out whats going on from your spouse. dont settle for "its nothing" an explanation is in order at that point. your spouse should prove their point, if they take it offensively and choose not to prove it, maybe thats your answer.
maybe I am naive, but I trust my spouse and she has never given me a reason not to. throughout our relationship we have both expressed actions that the other was doing and we did not like it (friendships with opposite sex that could be mistaken for something else). it did not break up any friendship but we changed the way we interacted with them for the sake of the relationship.
and to "the guy" you are extremely sarcastic and you misunderstood what i said. i hope you enjoy your rainbows and unicorns (that was sarcasm)
I do have communication problems (as do most people here)in my relationship but if something does not feel right I know I can say it without snooping or being devious. I am just amazed with how many people are spying on their spouse when it boils down to communication. i have never lied to my spouse or caught my spouse in a lie!
so to all the responses so far enjoy your snooping and devious ways, thats what works for you and thats the type of person you choose to be.
but thats my opinion and maybe I have too much faith in honesty, trust, rational and love.
There is no moral equivalence between cheating and a spouse trying to look out for the marriage.
So no this is not two wrongs.
Marriage is about love and respect. Trust can be a by product. Blind trust is naive, lazy and ambivalent but mostly it is just flat not understanding the dynamics of an EA. You either care enough about your marriage or you don't to put in the work.
That said, I am personally more likely to engage something like this head on and confront anything that looks suspicious. However, if I thought that transparency was broken then I would not be beyond using these means. My marriage is the #1 priority. Everything else takes a back seat.
I definitley believe in transaparency. No secrets. lack of transparency would be a deal breaker for me. In this case I need look no further. My dealbreakers would likely be satified before going to these extreme measures. However, some folks, especially those with children feel they need more proof. I cannot critisize them for that.
__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."
Last edited by Entropy3000; 05-09-2012 at 11:28 AM.
The use of keyloggers and other surveillance software on another adult without their permission is wrong when it's illegal at either the state or Federal level, which is usually the case in the U.S. Title III has been extended to interception of email and the majority of the Circuit Courts have ruled that it includes interspousal relations. A number of states have specific laws against it.
I understand that sometimes you 'gotta do what you gotta do' if you suspect infidelity, but attorneys are coming more and more to people like me to document the existence of this stuff on their client's computers.
My marriage would be more important than any such thing. If my spouse needed to hide behind said law then that in itself would be grounds for a divorce. Laws is not about right and wrong. Laws can be applied in ways that were never intended. Still other laws are ingnored.
I confess the other day I crossed a double white line to avoid an accident. Was I wrong? This is much the same IMO.
I relaize that Marriage 2.0 is now a business partnership. That said then something has to give. If it is just a business protected by laws then one needs to treat their partner as a business partner. This I find absurd.
__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."
Last edited by Entropy3000; 05-09-2012 at 11:31 AM.
--Not trying to be argumentative. Maybe I just need a second cup of coffee. I think I see the analogy with W.M. Felt from an ethical standpoint, but I believe the legal issues were very different.
It's been asserted more than once on TAM that joint property law trumps privacy law. It's been asserted more than once on TAM that marriage provides a legal right to any and all information where your spouse is concerned.
I understand the importance of transparency in marriage a lot better now, then I did six months ago, but that transparancy is an ethical, not a legal right. When it comes to marriage, the two are not the same at all.
I guess in the end, the reason I keep pointing out that the use of keyloggers is often illegal is to salve my own conscience as an I.T. person.
I get what your saying about the ethical / legal distinction.
I also take your point that in the digital age, traces remain that can last for a very long time. In other words, there weren't any lawyers in sight when the snooping began, and the snooping ends, but the evidence of long-ago past snooping remains, sufficient for a conviction
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Re: keyloggers, fake profiles, spying? 
