General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
Post, Elizabeth L., Emily Post On Etiquette, Revised Edition. p. 6
"As to who pays, the guidelines are the same as they would be for two friends of the same gender."
Tuckerman, Nancy and Dunnan, Nancy, The Amy Vanderbilt Complete Book of Etiquette: 50th Anniversary Edition. p. 69
"The custom of a man always paying for a woman's meal is no longer the case. While much depends on the particular circumstance, certainly on the first date the person who does the inviting pays the restaurant bill."
Steward, Marjabelle, The New Etiquette: Real Manners For Real People In Real Situations. p. 412
"As a rule, whoever does the asking pays for the first date. If a girl asks a boy out for a casual date, and she does not have much money, he may offer to pay."
Dunham, Alison, Everything Dating Book. p. 127
"The new rules are that the person who does the asking also does the paying"
Fox, Sue, Etiquette For Dummies. p.80
"The traditional rule that the man always pays has been replaced by greater equality....In general, however, when it comes to a first date, the person who issues the invitation picks up the tab."
Ingram, Leah, The Everything Etiquette Book. p. 96
"It's unfair for one person in the relationship to be constantly picking up the tab, but it may also feel weird for the two of you to split the bill."
Cullen, Ruth and Barbas, Kerren, The Little Pink Book of Etiquette. p. 47
"The foremost rule of dating concerns cold, hard cash. As a general rule, the person who asks for the date, pays for the date."
Morgan, John, Debrett's New Guide to Etiquette and Modern Manners: The Indispensable Handbook. p. 191
"The person who instigates the date should expect to pay. The other party should accept gracefully and with thanks, except in situations where she or he has conceded to the invitation only out of politeness..."
Post, Peter, Essential Manners for Men: What to Do, When to Do It, and Why. p. 88
"When it comes to paying the bill at a restaurant, there is a simple rule of thumb; the person who does the inviting pays for the meal."
I think the OP couldn't afford his internet anymore ... girlfriend bled him dry.
Just the one post.
In that case? Too deep, too fast. The signs aren't good.
As for the whole 'pay for the privilege of my company' thing in dating a woman? My position is simple ... for as long as you assure the privilege of your company yields privilege, then I have no issues in picking up the tab.
The dates that really matter, the ones where I think you truly connect and bond? Are usually on the cheap if not free.
You can build a sense of security, and to some degree attraction, with a fat wallet, but money doesn't build those moments that I have seen several people on this thread point out. The moments that don't have a price-tag.
And for the record, woman I am currently seeing, snatched the bill from our first date out my hand ... with a big grin. Most of my dates have either offered to split, or have insisted to pay for one or more dates.
No it isn't a correct interpretation of my answer.
If the female asks a male out then she should expect to pay.
Most young ladies know what they want.
What attributes and character they are looking for in a man.
Most likely in my daughter's case, she sees how I treat her mom,
my daughters, how I treat their friends, how I treat other woman.
I always pay no matter what.
Doesn't matter if we invite someone skiing, going on vacation, lunch,
dinner or if we get invited by someone else ........I always try and pay.
That is just me.
Thank you. Now, some follow up questions:
If, as you say, the woman sets the date, she should expect to pay, would you further agree that, under those circumstances, a "lady" should not take umbrage at the expectation that she should pay?
Would you still consider a woman who does take exception to having to pay under such circumstances can truly be called a "lady" in the manner you appear to have used the term in this thread? Posted via Mobile Device
I also want to say that just because there are a few bad apples out there
doesn't mean a man shouldn't be a Gentleman and pay for his dates.
For those young men that disagree, remember that the business
world is made of many older Gentlemen like me and when we are
asking open ended questions to determine your character.
Many of us would consider it a character flaw and you would not get hired
or promoted into that job.
We hire and promote the very best but character does really matter.
I respectfully disagree with your business analogy.
Honor in business is a thing of the past. You must be near retirement because today's executives are not rewarded for their character or hiring of people with character. Its all about skirting US tax laws, screwing suppliers, converting permanent postions into contractors, completely outsourcing jobs, cutting back on benefits or suing your competition in order to meet quarterly profit expectations. I hate what its become, but its the new reality.
The model of putting your women on a pedastel was logically nullified by the womens rights movement. I don't see how one can be in favor of equal rights and then rationally expect an "equal" to pay for everything. This expectation implies that the women is the weaker of the sexes and we all know that isn't true. Don't we?
I always pay no matter what.
Doesn't matter if we invite someone skiing, going on vacation, lunch,
dinner or if we get invited by someone else ........I always try and pay.
That is just me.
It should be the man. He is trying to "Win The Heart" of the girl. Isn't he?
If she doesn't want to sleep with him within the first hour, then that relationship is a total write off. "Winning someone over" means they initially don't like you.
9 week relationship is still in the early stages of dating.
It should be the man. He is trying to "Win The Heart" of the girl. Isn't he?
But he should also be honest. If it's going to break his bank
or he is low on funds, he should just say something to her.
Example:
I have my apt payment coming up on the 1st and can we do dinner in a few weeks.
It's always better to be honest because she is going to find out anyway.
If you are living paycheck to paycheck or charging everything and going into debt.
She then has the option to pay if she wants to. But she doesn't have to.
I wouldn't feel funny saying something to a girl but I would feel funny taking money
from her.
When my friend was dating her (now husband), he wooed her by taking her out to dinner a few times a week, tickets to concerts, drinks after work... she was having a grand old time! When they moved in together she discovered he was up to his eyeballs in debt. Owed $50k in credit card debt alone. This wasn't just from taking her out, it was a lifestyle he'd formed for himself over the years. He was on a reasonably high salary at a corporate job but knew nothing about how to manage money.
Anyway, she vowed to help work through the debt with him but she vented to me one day with anger. They are fine together, they are both really lovely people but just because someone is splashing out the money, doesn't necessarily mean they actually have any. There is a different between "rich" and "wealthy". Wealthy being long term sustainable.
So, I guess I'm agreeing with you there Dean - that a man who lives and pays within his means and is honest, could be the way to go. If the woman doesn't respect this, they likely aren't a good match anyway.
As far as financials go, there's also a lot to be said about attitude and potential. And it has to be considered how one would deal with things if low financial times did hit as a couple. Does she up and leave because she no longer feels "special"?
I respectfully disagree with your business analogy.
Honor in business is a thing of the past. You must be near retirement because today's executives are not rewarded for their character or hiring of people with character. Its all about skirting US tax laws, screwing suppliers, converting permanent postions into contractors, completely outsourcing jobs, cutting back on benefits or suing your competition in order to meet quarterly profit expectations. I hate what its become, but its the new reality.
The model of putting your women on a pedastel was logically nullified by the womens rights movement. I don't see how one can be in favor of equal rights and then rationally expect an "equal" to pay for everything. This expectation implies that the women is the weaker of the sexes and we all know that isn't true. Don't we?
Peace
My husband was asked at his interview what motivates him to achieve. He replied "My wife and providing for my family."
They are of a more old school mentality and this answer fit with their culture. He didn't answer with this in mind, he had no idea how they would take it, he was just being himself.
Around the same time he was interviewing with them, he had another more progressive/start up company flirting with him too. That company would no doubt want to hear something about achieving targets etc. The money was slightly more with this company but he knew it would mean working more after hours and potential burn out. With the company he accepted, it's more a work/life balance and better for long term (all being well).
Cultural fits go both ways. It has to be right for the interviewee as much as the interviewer.
The model of putting your women on a pedastel was logically nullified by the womens rights movement. I don't see how one can be in favor of equal rights and then rationally expect an "equal" to pay for everything. This expectation implies that the women is the weaker of the sexes and we all know that isn't true. Don't we?
Peace
It appears to be a matter of equal...when convenient.
You decided to ignore all the signs, and picked a sorry ass husband, but somehow the rest of us are like said sorry ass husband, simply because we disagree with Dean, who believes that a woman, by the sheer virtue of being born with a vagina, is entitled to have cash thrown at her?
Is this the gist?
No, it sounds like you got the bum wrap, because you chose wrong, wish you had a "Dean", and instead of dealing with your own crap the rest of us are, by bitter default, just like your husband.
You have apparently missed a lot of Dean's point of view. He also says that when a woman invites a man out, she should pay for the date.
You have apparently missed a lot of Dean's point of view. He also says that when a woman invites a man out, she should pay for the date.
Thanks, but I read and comprehending his view just fine. And if you seriously think his that little amendment represents his core views, I'd suggest that someone else in this conversation missed the point.
Thanks, but I read and comprehending his view just fine. And if you seriously think his that little amendment represents his core views, I'd suggest that someone else in this conversation missed the point.
Indeed, while some may see it as splitting hairs, I think it's worth noting that Dean didn't say the woman should pay for the date, but that she should expect to pay for the date. Dean strikes me as someone who's very careful in choosing his precise words. So, that phrasing, coupled with Dean's previous posts led me to the inference that if a woman sets the date, she should be prepared to pay, but that the man is still expected to step in and pick up the expense. After all, Dean did also say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Dean*
I may be in the minority on TAM but I believe a man should always pay for his date
and I have very little respect for a man that thinks otherwise.
(Emphasis mine, but the words are Dean's.)
So, the idea of the woman paying for the date if she's the one who sets it would appear to be contradictory with the notion that a man worth respect always pays for his date. Until you look at the phrasing of the statements. Which leads to the conclusion that the woman should never pay, regardless of circumstances.
I'm going to put up my own anecdotes and observations as I think of them:
1. When I was living with my bf in NYC, his brother came for T-giving with his "new" gf. I remember his mother later complaining that he had paid for her flight (from San Francisco) even though he was at that time unemployed. I can't remember how long that relationship lasted.
2. I can think of two ex's in my 20s who bragged to me about the expensive dinners and jewellery that they bought their ex's. I have heard from other women how their current bf's do that as well.
Perhaps some men can explain to me why a guy would be so proud of the money that he spent on an ex when that relationship no longer exists.
I'm going to put up my own anecdotes and observations as I think of them:
1. When I was living with my bf in NYC, his brother came for T-giving with his "new" gf. I remember his mother later complaining that he had paid for her flight (from San Francisco) even though he was at that time unemployed. I can't remember how long that relationship lasted.
2. I can think of two ex's in my 20s who bragged to me about the expensive dinners and jewellery that they bought their ex's. I have heard from other women how their current bf's do that as well.
Perhaps some men can explain to me why a guy would be so proud of the money that he spent on an ex when that relationship no longer exists.
Bragging, I don't get. Although I can see complaining about significant time and money spent on what was ultimately a failure of a relationship.
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Re: Should he pay for everything? 
