General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
Quite often an EA is what a betrayed partner calls a PA when they can't accept the truth that their partner had sex with someone else.
And then there are the times, like mine and my husband's, when it never went PA... neither of us had sex with our EA partners... unless someone has figured out how to do it 1000+ miles away
Quite often an EA is what a betrayed partner calls a PA when they can't accept the truth that their partner had sex with someone else.
An EA can be a PA, but a PA can be a stand-alone. The EA just means they have romantic feelings. It's usually used as a shorthand to mean it wasn't PA too, and people sometimes say EA/PA to mean that it was also physical.
The distinctions can get lost on people who haven't been through them.
But a friendship you will/can/should share with your spouse. That friend should be able and willing to be around your spouse with no reservations and no secrets.
But a friendship you will/can/should share with your spouse. That friend should be able and willing to be around your spouse with no reservations and no secrets.
I agree with that.
Thank you all for posting. I am really learning a lot here.
In the end, I think the key lies on the word "secret".
I also believe that the target of an EA is always a PA. Sometimes it is pursued only by one partner in the EA and it will never really come to a PA. It just gets stuck in an EA.
I personally believe, that particularly men are never interested in EAs. But they can stay stuck in an EA for years because they never find at any point that it is the right time to make a move.
Friendship, to me, is also an emotional connection. I am not sure why you shouldn't be able to do anything with somebody of the opposite sex that you couldn't do (or talk about) with somebody of the same sex. Even if it is marriage problems. That is, where marriage would become to restrictive for me (and I really do perceive that as not healthy).
In fact, I know of some people who seek advice especially from someone of the opposite sex on marriage issues, because they acknowledge the difference between the sexes and feel advice from someone of the same sex will not get them any further. They would discuss problems in their marriage with someone outside, of the opposite sex and would still not be telling about it at home. But their focus lies on fixing something in their relationship, not on creating a new one.
I also know of people (particularly women) of the other extreme. They would not allow for themselves to be in any meaningful contact to someone of the opposite sex as there is the slight risk that it could be misunderstood. That, I think, is sad as well.
If, say, I hate to play tennis and my wife loves it. She finds a male partner and they play together twice a week, after that they sit together for a drink to cool down. There is some emotional connection built up. They might discuss things that I don't know about. He might even be interested in her, but that still does not mean they are in any kind of an affair. I, personally, would have no problem with that.
Again, I think, ongoing secrecy or not makes all the difference.
Renegade, I see what you are saying. And, tho both my husband and I have had EAs, we still have friends of the opposite sex. The difference now is that NOTHING is hidden. And, I am more selective of my opposite sex friends, and what I discuss with them. My husband and I have one particular friend who is going thru a nasty divorce. I had befriended the wife in the beginning, until it was shown that she wasn't what she presented. And now, when it comes to the husband, I defer to my husband...for one reason: my history. I don't want to take the chance. It isn't worth jeopardizing my marriage.
And I think that's the big thing... is the friendship causing friction in the marriage? If so, why/ Listen to your spouse, don't just dismiss his or her concerns. If you dismiss your spouse's concerns regarding an uncomfortably close friendship (to the spouse), it shows that your loyalty does not lie with your spouse.
So, yea, I'd say secrecy and half-truths regarding interaction are definitely big indicators. I mean, your spouse could be friends with the person as well. They could both speak regularly...the difference is the content.
renegade, the thing you're not seeing is that an affair is insidious. Except for the vampires, no one goes out intending to start an affair. It almost ALWAYS starts with a friend, a coworker, a tennis partner, who notices your spouse, when you take her for granted. Who listens to your spouse, when you're too ingrossed in your video game. Who flatters your spouse, when you don't even notice when she cuts her hair any more. Who sympathizes with your wife, when you see her and think of your own baggage with her and thus you remain silent.
Bottom line, that friend, that coworker, that tennis partner, makes her feel GOOD. And thus the first step in an affair. Just like heroin, once that first 'taste' is done, there's usually no going back.
renegade, the thing you're not seeing is that an affair is insidious. Except for the vampires, no one goes out intending to start an affair. It almost ALWAYS starts with a friend, a coworker, a tennis partner, who notices your spouse, when you take her for granted. Who listens to your spouse, when you're too ingrossed in your video game. Who flatters your spouse, when you don't even notice when she cuts her hair any more. Who sympathizes with your wife, when you see her and think of your own baggage with her and thus you remain silent.
Bottom line, that friend, that coworker, that tennis partner, makes her feel GOOD. And thus the first step in an affair. Just like heroin, once that first 'taste' is done, there's usually no going back.
Renegade, I see what you are saying. And, tho both my husband and I have had EAs, we still have friends of the opposite sex. The difference now is that NOTHING is hidden. And, I am more selective of my opposite sex friends, and what I discuss with them. My husband and I have one particular friend who is going thru a nasty divorce. I had befriended the wife in the beginning, until it was shown that she wasn't what she presented. And now, when it comes to the husband, I defer to my husband...for one reason: my history. I don't want to take the chance. It isn't worth jeopardizing my marriage.
And I think that's the big thing... is the friendship causing friction in the marriage? If so, why/ Listen to your spouse, don't just dismiss his or her concerns. If you dismiss your spouse's concerns regarding an uncomfortably close friendship (to the spouse), it shows that your loyalty does not lie with your spouse.
So, yea, I'd say secrecy and half-truths regarding interaction are definitely big indicators. I mean, your spouse could be friends with the person as well. They could both speak regularly...the difference is the content.
Yes and no. I think, if you unconditionally and without question listen to and implement all concerns your spouse has, you might open another door to emotional abuse from inside your marriage (not saying, that this has to happen). I believe there is a limit here as well.
If one had an old friend and the spouse is uncomfortable with it, would you immediately give the friend up? I think that is not a no-brainer.
I am personally not in any of this situations. I'm really just curious to understand. So far, what an EA really is seems to be a quite fluid concept.
renegade, the thing you're not seeing is that an affair is insidious. Except for the vampires, no one goes out intending to start an affair. It almost ALWAYS starts with a friend, a coworker, a tennis partner, who notices your spouse, when you take her for granted. Who listens to your spouse, when you're too ingrossed in your video game. Who flatters your spouse, when you don't even notice when she cuts her hair any more. Who sympathizes with your wife, when you see her and think of your own baggage with her and thus you remain silent.
Bottom line, that friend, that coworker, that tennis partner, makes her feel GOOD. And thus the first step in an affair. Just like heroin, once that first 'taste' is done, there's usually no going back.
In that sense, you would have to restrict every contact your partner makes with the outside world. Or, automatically assume that, if he/she is not willing to do this by himself/herself, he/she does not love you enough.
I believe many a marriages suffer exactly because of those efforts or that assumption.
If somebody else makes a spouse feel good, that does not automatically mean, I don't. Maybe we both make him/her feel good and maybe many more people. That would be wonderful to my idea.
In that case, I think the affair is not where it starts. Here is the point that one does not make the partner feel good in first place (or takes him/her for granted). the affair is then the symptom, no matter if EA or PA and one might argue if it can actually be justified (I'm sure a lot of people hit me here and say "An affair is never justified") - just saying.
Yes and no. I think, if you unconditionally and without question listen to and implement all concerns your spouse has, you might open another door to emotional abuse from inside your marriage (not saying, that this has to happen). I believe there is a limit here as well.
If one had an old friend and the spouse is uncomfortable with it, would you immediately give the friend up? I think that is not a no-brainer.
I am personally not in any of this situations. I'm really just curious to understand. So far, what an EA really is seems to be a quite fluid concept.
Hold it. I'm not sure I follow now. Maybe it's because of how late it is, I don't know. In a marriage you should listen to your spouse's concerns. Why would you not hear him or her out when they express concern over something? That is unfathomable. It doesn't mean that you accept if they "lay down the law" so to speak, each and every time. What it means is that if he or she has a concern, you sit and discuss it. You don't just dismiss it as insignificant.
As far as ceasing contact with old friends. I think it IS a no-brainer. My husband's "friend" was supposedly MY friend as well. We knew her for 4 years before their EA started. They maintained "we're just friends"... but I knew the signs because of MY behavior. It follows a pattern, and his was following the pattern. When the choice was given "her or me"...it was a no-brainer. He picked me. His wife. The woman he vowed to spend the rest of his life with. The mother of his children. The woman he loves. And I did the same with a friend I knew for about the same amount of time. Because my marriage was, and is, more important than any outside friendship. He doesn't dictate who my friends are. I don't dictate who his friends are. But we now don't hide anything from each other (surprise parties and presents don't count).
Not sure if that was what you believed I was saying or not... that the spouses pick each others friends, etc. But that wasn't what I was saying at all.
In that case, I think the affair is not where it starts. Here is the point that one does not make the partner feel good in first place (or takes him/her for granted). the affair is then the symptom, no matter if EA or PA and one might argue if it can actually be justified (I'm sure a lot of people hit me here and say "An affair is never justified") - just saying.
Yes, I've used those very words myself many a time. An affair is a symptom.
But a symptom of what? No one should be so quick to jump on board with the idea that it's always a symptom of x or y.
It is EITHER a symptom of a problem that is in the marriage, and that problem is contributed to by both people
OR it's a symptom of a problem entirely inside the cheater,
OR it's both.
Many affairs are conducted by damaged, broken people. Not all, maybe not even half, but a significant number. It makes sense, if you think about it; they are seeking validation, affirmation, etc. for low self-esteem or other issues of self-respect. Who better to shore this up than multiple people telling them they are sexually attractive? At least, that is what these damaged people tell themselves.
Many other times, of course, it's due to vulnerabilities in the marriage. Or you can have the combination, of a damaged person who alienates the loyal spouse, and then uses the gap as an excuse to cheat.
But to turn to the affair never being justified--just what problems, precisely, are solved by going into an affair? Because that would be the only circumstances under which it is justified. In the United States, a divorce can be readily had. Counseling is readily available and many therapists take clients on a sliding scale based on income. Books can be had at any corner library. No American (at least) can complain that there aren't about a thousand different resources, many of them cheap or free, to aid a troubled marriage. Availing yourself of an affair is cowardice, pure and simple.
Yes, I've used those very words myself many a time. An affair is a symptom.
But a symptom of what? No one should be so quick to jump on board with the idea that it's always a symptom of x or y.
It is EITHER a symptom of a problem that is in the marriage, and that problem is contributed to by both people
OR it's a symptom of a problem entirely inside the cheater,
OR it's both.
Many affairs are conducted by damaged, broken people. Not all, maybe not even half, but a significant number. It makes sense, if you think about it; they are seeking validation, affirmation, etc. for low self-esteem or other issues of self-respect. Who better to shore this up than multiple people telling them they are sexually attractive? At least, that is what these damaged people tell themselves.
Many other times, of course, it's due to vulnerabilities in the marriage. Or you can have the combination, of a damaged person who alienates the loyal spouse, and then uses the gap as an excuse to cheat.
But to turn to the affair never being justified--just what problems, precisely, are solved by going into an affair? Because that would be the only circumstances under which it is justified. In the United States, a divorce can be readily had. Counseling is readily available and many therapists take clients on a sliding scale based on income. Books can be had at any corner library. No American (at least) can complain that there aren't about a thousand different resources, many of them cheap or free, to aid a troubled marriage. Availing yourself of an affair is cowardice, pure and simple.
Totally agree with what you're saying. I also think it is the honest and honorable thing to do to break up a relationship that one doesn't see fit anymore before any affair starts.
And that's quite obvious when it comes to PAs. The understanding of what an EA is compared to a close friendship, however, seems to vary. Some partners are more tolerant than others.
And that is also to follow up on Maricha's post. I've been once in a relationship some time ago where she aimed to control every contact I had on the outside (actually cut it off). She saw an affair in everything where I had no intentions whatsoever. Therefore, I mentioned, it's probably not always a no-brainer to follow what your partner is concerned with.
You wrote that in your post. Discussing it, not necessarily accepting what the other one sees as law. So, I believe, we are on the same track here.
That is why friendships with the opposite sex are by their nature are an emotional bond.
But there is a distinction here that is determined by the brain chemicals.
Both a friendship and and EA have oxytocin in common. But an EA has dopamine at work.
Dopamine is the euphoria. The cacain chemical. One starts with increasing the oxytocin which leads to the dopamine.
EA partners are friends first. So many folks in an EA do not realize that saying I love you and miss you is inappropriate because we do love and miss our friends. However, in an EA these feelings for the AP are like overnight. Meaning that have an obsession to see them now. Being apart hours is tough. That is not a friendship. That is an EA. When a freindship rivals the primary relationship you know you have an EA. Defending a friendship to a spouse in the face of a divorce over it, validates that this friendship is something that has surpassed the primary relationship.
Hanging out with oppisite sex friends doing dating type things ... is dataing. Intent does not matter at all. I repeat for emphasis it has nothing to do with intent. if you are doing dating things with another and say no no we are just friends ... you are dating and in denial. That is an EA.
__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."
Thank you all for posting. I am really learning a lot here.
In the end, I think the key lies on the word "secret".
Secret implies a willingness and intent to be unfaithful. To isolate themselves from their partner. EAs often are right out in the open because the APs think they are doing no wrong. They are effectively living in an open relationship. It is not just about secrecy. If left unchallenged the betrayal will be right in your face. When challenegd it will go underground. So being ok with things as long as they are open is just accepting an open marriage.
I also believe that the target of an EA is always a PA. Sometimes it is pursued only by one partner in the EA and it will never really come to a PA. It just gets stuck in an EA.
Nope always so. It is not the target in all cases. It may be the inevitable comclusion, but nope there is no conspiracy to cheat at the start. That said, if one of the APs is a predator then this is true. If someone ios intending to cheat then they are a cheater before the ever cheat. Cheaters will engage in an EA that leads to a PA. But I do agree that the BS should understand that an EA is not a stable state and if they do not intervene the affair will likely go to a PA. My piunt is that intent is not always the same at the beginning but the results can be the same if not interrupted. Why is this significant. I think it is better if not easier to reconsile with someone who did not intend to cheat. I would say kick someone to the curb if it was their aim all along.
I personally believe, that particularly men are never interested in EAs. But they can stay stuck in an EA for years because they never find at any point that it is the right time to make a move.
Men get caught up in EAs. Women have to connect to have sex. Men have to have sex to connect. A generality. Do not make the mistake in assuming that men are the evil ones here. That women are not the predators or the cheaters. This said, I trust no man with my wife who is not her direct relative. But you know what? My wife trusts no woman with me. Not because I ad an EA but because she knows women are not all so sweet and innocent. I also contend that male friends are pretty much open to sex with their female friends. I am not saying a married man will cheat automatically but he is interested at some level. A single guy is likely to sleep with any of his female friends. This does not make me trust married men any more though.
Friendship, to me, is also an emotional connection. I am not sure why you shouldn't be able to do anything with somebody of the opposite sex that you couldn't do (or talk about) with somebody of the same sex. Even if it is marriage problems. That is, where marriage would become to restrictive for me (and I really do perceive that as not healthy).
If there is a need for very close opposites sex friends I question whether that person is ready for a mongamous marriage. I think there is too much risk in it. If you do not want to deal with this level of commitment I agree don't get married. Just my opinion. I learned the hard way.
In fact, I know of some people who seek advice especially from someone of the opposite sex on marriage issues, because they acknowledge the difference between the sexes and feel advice from someone of the same sex will not get them any further. They would discuss problems in their marriage with someone outside, of the opposite sex and would still not be telling about it at home. But their focus lies on fixing something in their relationship, not on creating a new one.
But unfortunately this is a related rates problem. Meaning it has a huge cost. Which happens quicker. For every step of good advice the hole gets deeper. So hire a person of the opposite sex who will not have a conflict of interest. Getting this advice from an opposite sex freind is inviting intimacy and it becomes a secret from your spouse. Naive at best. The advice is tainted by the friendship. Not good. I am sure folks of all ages can think this way but this seems a younger persons mistake more often than not. Young folks are so used to discussing the dating part of their relationship with friends they wish to extend it into a married situation which is far different. But this is how they tend to float in and out of relationships often then dating the person who was giving the advice because ... they connected.
I also know of people (particularly women) of the other extreme. They would not allow for themselves to be in any meaningful contact to someone of the opposite sex as there is the slight risk that it could be misunderstood. That, I think, is sad as well.
I think they are absolutely correct. The appearance of an inappropriate relationship can cause deep and lasting issues with a marriage. maybe not immediately but is will always be there at the first stress. Those women are the smart ones. They value their marriage over the friendship. Again my opinion.
If, say, I hate to play tennis and my wife loves it. She finds a male partner and they play together twice a week, after that they sit together for a drink to cool down. There is some emotional connection built up. They might discuss things that I don't know about. He might even be interested in her, but that still does not mean they are in any kind of an affair. I, personally, would have no problem with that.
This is folly. She can play tennis with the ladies. That said my advice to you would be to play tennis with your wife unless your marriage is not your #1 priority. Your wife is on a tennis date. Then she goes for drinks. This is very risky in my opinion. naive.
Again, I think, ongoing secrecy or not makes all the difference.
In either caae there are problems with close opposite sex relationships in a marriage. I think that secrecy means that the intent to cheta is there. Intent would make a difference to me. But yeah EAs occur in the open. The point made however is a technical one. If a spouse allows an EA to occur in the open it is really that they are openly allowing an open marriage..
__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."
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Re: What's an EA? 
