General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
renegade, the thing you're not seeing is that an affair is insidious. Except for the vampires, no one goes out intending to start an affair. It almost ALWAYS starts with a friend, a coworker, a tennis partner, who notices your spouse, when you take her for granted. Who listens to your spouse, when you're too ingrossed in your video game. Who flatters your spouse, when you don't even notice when she cuts her hair any more. Who sympathizes with your wife, when you see her and think of your own baggage with her and thus you remain silent.
Bottom line, that friend, that coworker, that tennis partner, makes her feel GOOD. And thus the first step in an affair. Just like heroin, once that first 'taste' is done, there's usually no going back.
Yes and no. I think, if you unconditionally and without question listen to and implement all concerns your spouse has, you might open another door to emotional abuse from inside your marriage (not saying, that this has to happen). I believe there is a limit here as well.
If one had an old friend and the spouse is uncomfortable with it, would you immediately give the friend up? I think that is not a no-brainer.
I am personally not in any of this situations. I'm really just curious to understand. So far, what an EA really is seems to be a quite fluid concept.
I would ultimately get rid ot the old long time friend. I think you should talk it over and try to work it out first, but ultimately yes you should respect the person you vowed to respect and live the rest of your life with. Your spouse comes first. If you are not willing for this to happen then you really a not commited to the marriage. The thing is that if your spouse does not accept your continued relationship you have to be prepared to end your marriage for the sake of that friendship.
Yes, I've used those very words myself many a time. An affair is a symptom.
But a symptom of what? No one should be so quick to jump on board with the idea that it's always a symptom of x or y.
It is EITHER a symptom of a problem that is in the marriage, and that problem is contributed to by both people
OR it's a symptom of a problem entirely inside the cheater,
OR it's both.
Many affairs are conducted by damaged, broken people. Not all, maybe not even half, but a significant number. It makes sense, if you think about it; they are seeking validation, affirmation, etc. for low self-esteem or other issues of self-respect. Who better to shore this up than multiple people telling them they are sexually attractive? At least, that is what these damaged people tell themselves.
Many other times, of course, it's due to vulnerabilities in the marriage. Or you can have the combination, of a damaged person who alienates the loyal spouse, and then uses the gap as an excuse to cheat.
But to turn to the affair never being justified--just what problems, precisely, are solved by going into an affair? Because that would be the only circumstances under which it is justified. In the United States, a divorce can be readily had. Counseling is readily available and many therapists take clients on a sliding scale based on income. Books can be had at any corner library. No American (at least) can complain that there aren't about a thousand different resources, many of them cheap or free, to aid a troubled marriage. Availing yourself of an affair is cowardice, pure and simple.
Sometimes the marriage problems are a symptom of an affair.
Totally agree with what you're saying. I also think it is the honest and honorable thing to do to break up a relationship that one doesn't see fit anymore before any affair starts.
And that's quite obvious when it comes to PAs. The understanding of what an EA is compared to a close friendship, however, seems to vary. Some partners are more tolerant than others.
And that is also to follow up on Maricha's post. I've been once in a relationship some time ago where she aimed to control every contact I had on the outside (actually cut it off). She saw an affair in everything where I had no intentions whatsoever. Therefore, I mentioned, it's probably not always a no-brainer to follow what your partner is concerned with.
You wrote that in your post. Discussing it, not necessarily accepting what the other one sees as law. So, I believe, we are on the same track here.
Not sure what you are saying exactly but just to be clear one does not wait to intervene after a PA. One needs to intervene before unfaithfulness. When things are inappropriate. The best way to deal with this is to not play the game at all. Having opposite sex friends is ok. Having close ones is just too much risk if your marriage is #1. If the marriage is not so important then fine. You might get lucky.
Sometimes the marriage problems are a symptom of an affair.
Great response, although I would argue that if this is the case, then the problems lie somewhere inside the cheater.
The other thing to point out to people reading this (about the affair being a symptom of "something" but not necessarily troubles in the marriage before the affair) is that repairing the marriage is nearly impossible while the affair is going on. That's because the cheater is continuing to channel the majority of their fears / hopes / dreams and most if not all of their affection and frankly ENERGY toward the affair partner.
Marriage counseling is very hard work, it requires the two people to open up and be vulnerable to each other as perhaps they never have. To turn toward each other. But if you can picture two people on a couch, while one of them is holding hands with someone just outside of the room, you can see why this is a nonstarter.
That is why friendships with the opposite sex are by their nature are an emotional bond.
But there is a distinction here that is determined by the brain chemicals.
Both a friendship and and EA have oxytocin in common. But an EA has dopamine at work.
Dopamine is the euphoria. The cacain chemical. One starts with increasing the oxytocin which leads to the dopamine.
EA partners are friends first. So many folks in an EA do not realize that saying I love you and miss you is inappropriate because we do love and miss our friends. However, in an EA these feelings for the AP are like overnight. Meaning that have an obsession to see them now. Being apart hours is tough. That is not a friendship. That is an EA. When a freindship rivals the primary relationship you know you have an EA. Defending a friendship to a spouse in the face of a divorce over it, validates that this friendship is something that has surpassed the primary relationship.
Hanging out with oppisite sex friends doing dating type things ... is dataing. Intent does not matter at all. I repeat for emphasis it has nothing to do with intent. if you are doing dating things with another and say no no we are just friends ... you are dating and in denial. That is an EA.
To put this into the context of the excellent book His Needs / Her Needs. Dating meets (at least at the beginning) two important needs: the need for intimate conversation, and the need for recreational companionship. Obviously friends can also fulfill these two needs, but a friend isn't going to demonstrate the additional ingredient that leads this relationship into an affair--that is, intimate affection. It is the mere possibility that this may arise in a friendship between sexually attracted people that makes spending time alone a risky choice.
I make choices that will prevent me from getting into situations that may cause me to fall into infatuation with someone. I limit my conversations with these people (I can think of a couple--I'm human!!) to public interactions. But there are probably other men I know who I'm not attracted to--but given the right mix of being alone / intimate conversation / recreation, I could still become infatuated with them. The point is you don't see the danger coming--I'm not different than anyone else--this is the core idea that you either believe, or you don't.
This is how I see it--I am the first guardian of MY OWN HEART, not my husband. I choose to be faithful to him by preventing affairs far ahead of the curve, particularly now that I fully understand how they occur.
To put this into the context of the excellent book His Needs / Her Needs. Dating meets (at least at the beginning) two important needs: the need for intimate conversation, and the need for recreational companionship. Obviously friends can also fulfill these two needs, but a friend isn't going to demonstrate the additional ingredient that leads this relationship into an affair--that is, intimate affection. It is the mere possibility that this may arise in a friendship between sexually attracted people that makes spending time alone a risky choice.
I make choices that will prevent me from getting into situations that may cause me to fall into infatuation with someone. I limit my conversations with these people (I can think of a couple--I'm human!!) to public interactions. But there are probably other men I know who I'm not attracted to--but given the right mix of being alone / intimate conversation / recreation, I could still become infatuated with them. The point is you don't see the danger coming--I'm not different than anyone else--this is the core idea that you either believe, or you don't.
This is how I see it--I am the first guardian of MY OWN HEART, not my husband. I choose to be faithful to him by preventing affairs far ahead of the curve, particularly now that I fully understand how they occur.
And this IS the takeaway for folks that it is first on them to protect their relationship by understanding the risks. Since this stuff can be very gray and emotions can drive us, we all need appropriate boundaries.
So when someone says it is about trust, for me then I trust my wife and she trusts me to not put ourselves in harms way at all. To be savvy enough to avoid these situations. Trust is not about putting oneself at risk and saying trust me to play this dangerous game.
A further safety net is their partner who can sometimes see things from a different point of view. It is not on the partner to be the first line of defense. It is just that we all have our blindspots to certain people and certain situations. We all have our more vulnerable times. Understanding this is key.
So while there may indeed be spouses who are over zealous, the kneejerk of calling a spouse jealous, insecure and controlling seems to me a red flag about the person using those terms. It just may be that the spouse is observing some risky behavior. A big way to deal with this is to discuss, agree on and implement some fundamental boundaries. Implementing such boundaries and not breaking them is a way to ease such tensions and validate trust. So if you are well within the agreed upon boundaries then you need to find out why your spouse is feeling jealous. If you are pushing your boundaries you have your answer. Stop that.
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Re: What's an EA? 
