General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
Took me a while to figure my W out. She wants and NEEDS financial stability which I have provided.
But stability - like love languages - has many dimensions:
- Financial stability is good
- Total emotional stability - or if you wish: Me constantly showing her I love her: THAT makes her anxious, tense and combative. She has a strong NEED for a full spectrum emotional relationship. She needs to have the space to chase me. To be able to have conflict - and sometimes combat.
IF - and this is rare - I want her to love me more - I do two things in concert:
- Make the effort to be more present and more fun when we are together AND
- Make sure we are together a bit less than "in theory" she wants
Together includes texts and calls and emails and physically doing things with each other. If it was always me initiating, she would feel smothered - and frankly that is the ONLY sure fired way to make her batshlt crazy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyjman
appreciate the honesty... i think i do a good job... i can certainly get better. i'm not perfect, hope it doesn't come off like that. i just want her to cherish and adore me like i was, you know... sounds kinda mushy for a guy to say that, but that's what i need.
all very good insight, so i appreciate the thoughts.
edit: the other side of the coin on this though, is that i've given a lot... done a lot for her over the years. i could do more, but in some ways, i'm waiting to see how important it is to her to step up and start showing me love in a way that i can feel it. is it really that important? if not, i don't see why i should break my back to do more...
Matty,
Your post below is logical - it just isn't correct. As an example, you insist on doing something she intensely dislikes which goes a bit like this:
You: I am unhappy because you aren't "feeling" the way I want and I can tell because I know you well. At this point she has heard and understands you: The rest of the conversation what she really hears is a long, detailed, highly analyzed explanation of WHY she sucks.
Have you thought about the fact that being Super Man husband is more about reading your W well, so you learn what she likes/dislikes and how to elicit the response you want? Because:
- She does NOT like hearing about your negative feelings and
- Does not wish to have a lengthy discussion of how and why she is failing you
Body language is so powerful and men tend to be so very bad at it. And smart men who are good with words (which is a big asset at work) tend to get MORE wordy and more analytical (smart) when they are stressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyjman
what this really gets at... is thinking that the other person thinks and feels the same way about everything. if your needs are getting met, then of course your partners needs are getting met... right? wrong. dead wrong. (unless you both have the same love language). how you show your love shouldn't be a chore in changing to a different language, because it doesn't impact how you receive love from your partner. it should be a relatively simple task of modifying your thought process of "i want to show love, and so i'll do "x" because i like "x". instead it should be "i want to show love, and he'll like "y" , so i'll do "y" because he would appreciate that."
what makes you uncomfortable, in a one on one situation? For many women, it's 'hammering.' males are typically bigger, stronger, and more aggressive. Hammering is usually more typically a male's way of getting a point across.
Women...are different. Being the weaker sex, over the millennia we've found other ways to get what we need. Talking, reading body language, more subtle insinuations...those are comfortable to us.
When someone 'hammers' on us, we defend ourselves. We rarely listen.
Humor me for a moment Matty. Imagine this for a moment: Your spouse isn't getting enough spontaneous affection/sex from you and they are angry.
Option 1:
They hammer you.
Option 2:
They are friendly and upbeat when with you, they even dress a bit nicer. They also stop saying "ILY" FIRST. They stop hugging you, and calling/texting you FIRST. If you reach out they respond, but they stop initiating. And they are around less - physically - less present.
Those are their two options. Which makes you love them more? Which makes you DESIRE them more?
Getting angry again and again because someone doesn't love you enough (this is NOT a communication problem - she knows what you want/need) actually makes them love you LESS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyjman
what's a man to think, when he does communicate the right way and nothing happens... "she didn't get it". gotta try again. hammer hammer hammer.
tough lesson to learn, this one. but i think in order to consider something "heard", something has to be "done". otherwise, if it's heard, and not done, then what are you left to assume. i'd rather assume she didn't get it, not that she just doesn't care.
so in all fairness, if you don't want "males" to hammer the point, do something about it. just my two cents on that. women are strange indeed... but i love 'em
Matty,
Follow the logic below. It is solid in both cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
A dog thinks: Hey, those people I live with feed me, love me, provide me with a nice warm, dry house, pet me, and take good care of me.....They must be gods!
A cat thinks: Hey, these people I live with feed me, love me, provide me with a nice warm, dry house, pet me, and take good care of me...I must be a god.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My W - who I love (in the way she wants to be loved) has quite a bit of cat in her. If I act like a dog - all hell breaks out.
You Matty - act like a dog - so eager to please and so very obvious about it. And you expect her to respond in kind. At core - if she is a cat - she simply perceives you in an emotionally negative manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyjman
i can't stand cats... hate them really. but i get the analogy. in fact, i can see how my wifes cat hates me, and how long it does take for her to come back around...
the awful realization is that i feel like i've been doing all the giving, and her doing all the taking. my issue in this relationship is that i don't feel that she gives back. i pulled away, and have now come to the realization that things probably won't change, and that i need to move on... in fact, i'm okay with the prospect of moving on. however, i would very much rather work things out.
however, the focus here has been that i HAVEN"T been doing enough, and there is more to give... what the... I'm a pretty logical person, and maybe logic isn't the best thing to use in fixing a relationship. i just don't see how me doing MORE will get her to do more to contribute as well...
this is not argumentative... someone needs to help me understand this from a global, big picture perspective, and then i think it will make sense.
1. You can't hammer her into loving you more - I know you get that.
2. You MUST enforce behavioral boundaries. If she flirts with another man, you simply say "THAT behavior is unacceptable, when you are ready to apologize, and commit to not doing it again let me know"
And then shut up - don't debate the point. And in fact go into a true 180 (only communicate about kids and schedules) until she accepts the boundary or you end the marriage.
And yes - that must be an absolute boundary. She CANNOT love you if she doesn't respect you. And flirting with other men is the ULTIMATE in your face sign of disrespect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyjman
okay, I've posted this in a few other threads, but to bring it all together...
I grew up Mormon (religious beliefs have something to do with this i think), but am no longer religious much at all, definitely not Mormon. She is from Bulgaria, and was also raised Mormon. We met at college when we were young, dated for a year, and go married thereafter, when she was 19 and I was 22. I come from a home where parents are still married, never fought or argued that i knew of, and dad was sole provider. she, while her parents are married, the only reason as she knows openly, was for her, otherwise, her parents wouldn't be together. her father is disabled, and pretty much a bum (not a function of his disability) and mom needed to work, and did most of the parenting it seems as well. She is EXTREMELY close with her mom. She is an only child, while i am the youngest of 5.
as far as personality, i have a very strong willed individual (you can tell) but (used to be) really passive when i want people to like me... (like i said earlier, recovering nice guy). I'm also a thinker and problem solver, and am very successful at work because of this. i prefer to be introverted most times, but am comfortable being extroverted as well... it's just not preferred.
she is (don't kill me here... this is my observation) very strong willed as well. never really learned to share, and so her self absorbed attitude extends into all of her relationships and communication. she likes to be active and do stuff with her hands. she is a social bug, but never likes to be in the spotlight. loyalty seems to be important to her, and she likes comfort, and the status quo - probably why any change is hard for her.
as far as work, i work as a director of a medium sized company, and work consistently with the owners in the development of the business. she works an entry level position, has applied for management and team lead roles, but never been promoted. despite this, she's maintained the job for over 5 years, despite my encouragement for her to venture out and get a job that utilizes her degree.
so, specific arguments/issues ... this one is hard. i'm not sure why, but i've never been one to remember a lot of details, but i certainly remember the feeling. it makes it hard for me to give concrete examples because of this. outside of writing things down in a ledger (which feels so wrong to document issues)... i don't really remember a lot until something jogs my memory.
here are a few things recently that have bothered me (please don't harp on these, they have already been diagnosed as nice guy issues):
wanting to hang out very frequently with her friends
flirting with anyone that would give her the time of day
consistent prioritizing of her needs over mine
a recent example was our 6th year anniversary. i planned a trip and told her to not plan anything for that weekend. she agreed, but the day before we left, she told me that she wanted to delay the trip because she had some homework to complete before the following thursday, and needed time on both saturday and sunday to complete it. i felt completely blown off, and that she was making this homework assignment and subsequent grade (more of a hobby for her anyway, it's spanish elective and she already has a degree) more important than having a weekend that i already spent planning to celebrate our marriage.
i told her that i was going, wanted her to come, but if she didn't want to, that was fine and i was going anyway. after some discussion, she decided (relented) to come. the hurt however, maintained. why would she choose her classwork over me?
there are lots of little things like that, that i have allowed to happen in the past, that have piled up. many times of her deciding that her interests were more important than me or mine.
that's the latest example i have...
the overall feeling that i get, however, and i don't think anyone has agreed with me, but it makes sense to me, is that i'm feeling the way i do, because she really is doing it. she really is taking me for granted, ignoring my needs, making her priorities higher than me or mine. here's the kicker though... she a- doesn't know she's doing it, and b- has no idea how to change it.
being an only child, her mom giving her whatever she wanted, and never having to share anything -- there has to be some implications of those actions.
now, the status quo... when she came out here, i had to do everything for her, with her. it was a cultural shift, and i met her soon after her getting into the states. i took care of her basically... housing, insurance, teaching her how to drive, helped her get a job, etc... and that "helping" and "giving" behavior has persisted for some time. i'd say about 2 years ago i realized that my needs weren't really getting met, and i was getting steamrolled... and so i spoke up about it. passively and not very assertively.. mostly complaining i guess. we would have spats, where we would argue for a few weeks, have a good few months, and then cycle back.
recently i decided i was fed up with it, told her that i needed to see some love, or i was going to walk. i was tired of being used. my sister suggested me telling her instead of just dropping her, and giving it one more shot. she also suggested me looking into some online communities... which is when i found you guys.
argued against the NMMNG premise, then read the book, and i said wow. since then i've started to establish boundaries, be more assertive and less passive-agressive, and started to be a bit more comfortable with who i am. for quite a while i've been deriving complete happiness from my giving to her. after i started thinking about myself again, i've realized i'm a pretty awesome guy. i've performed some functions of a 180 lite, to establish me being bit colder side of the relationship in an attempt to get her to warm up some.
she's noticed and said she hasn't liked it, but have also seen a few attempts to be nicer/more giving.
with all this however, i don't think that "manning up" is the complete answer, and there is a bit more involved here. which is why i sought out marriage counseling -- she didn't want to go, but i persisted and we ended up having our first session the other day.
--oh, that's a good example ... after suggesting MC, and her protesting it, she finally gave in saying that she'd go. only catch was her employer covers three free sessions and she needed to set it up. she knew how important is was to me, and said she would do it the next day. the following day i asked her if it was set up, she said she "forgot", apologized and reassured me it was going to happen the next day. for the next week, it went on like this, each day with her forgetting, and each time apologizing, recognizing that this was important, and that she would do it the following day. eventually that gut us here, but there is another example for you guys... --
so anyway, i've already started to address the manning up, making changes in myself, etc... and i like the new me... honestly, it's great. i seem to have more confidence, not really seeking others approval anymore -- there is really some insightful stuff there.
however, none of this changes her. it just makes me wish she would meet my needs, and long for someone that appreciates me for who i am and what i do. on some levels, i just think that she's incapable of feeling for someone like that. on some other levels, i just want to say "eff it" and move on to someone i know that wouldn't be like that...
issues from us getting married WAY to early in life... we didn't even know what we wanted. but now we are trying to steer our life together, and we just can't come together on any future goal .. except for making money and being great parents... all the filler stuff... it's just ballistic when we talk about it. we don't agree on anything... food tastes are different, cultural ideals are different, parenting perspectives are different. i would guess that she is resentful that i don't really care for the food they eat, and for the way that she was brought up (the same way she wants to rear the kids - when we have them), that i really don't have any interest in moving from country to country (real life goal of hers - no joke) like we were in the military or someething. and i have issues with her because her ideals are so against mine. any time we talk about the future, it's all messed up.
and that brings you up to speed about last night. she doesn't want to talk about it anymore - lots of pressure she says. but that says to me that she just doesn't want to confront the issue and sweep it under the rug. then on the other hand, she feels frustration because a- i want to upset the status quo in our relationship ("everything is fine, what we have is just fine, why do you need anything different"), and b- because she can't understand that concept of going through the actions vs. really wanting to do the actions with love and emotion.
go ahead, rip me apart. tell me i have x,y,z, to work on. in fact, i'd love it if some professional actually told me that the ENTIRE issue was my fault ... because then i could fix it. however, i don't believe it's all me... i'm working on fixing my stuff, that's why i'm here. i just don't understand why she doesn't want to fix hers. it takes two to tango right... and if we aren't dancing right, i don't think it's ever just one persons fault. both need to work, adapt, and change as the relationship changes... i just wish it wasn't so hard. it's so frustrating.
Matty,
You are either benefiting from or contributing to my insomnia. Openly flirting with other men is a VERY cat like thing to do. The physical analog is when you see a cat move into a stalking posture. You can't mistake it, but it is very quiet.
They are now in ready to kill mode. When THAT happens you put your boundaries in place immediately, because the alternative is that the cat kills you and then moves on.
You don't assert your boundaries lightly. That one is quick and absolute. A slower moving response is: I won't stay with a partner who takes me for granted. And that is something you enforce gradually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyjman
^ this is a great example... but at the same time... it sounds like each boundary would be a ultimatum of sorts...
how do your partners react every time you reinforce the boundary with an ultimatum.
i think if my wife did this, after just a couple of times, i'd flip out, say whatever, and if you are so desperate and unhappy with me the way i am, then leave....
one thing for sure, i'm much ****tier at relationships than i thought.
That's kinda what I was getting at when I said you both married young, and it's tough to learn to be an adult person and a married person at the same time.
Marriage and relationship skills aren't necessarily intuitive, and require learning how to interact and communicate with each other in a productive and positive way so that you become a team rather than adversaries. There is you, her, and "the marriage" or "us". Ultimately, both of you have to support the "us", almost as a third entity whose needs might differ somewhat from purely your needs and her needs.
Neither of you are good at it (yet), but both of you are still learning and can learn how to be good at it. Don't despair.
That's kinda what I was getting at when I said you both married young, and it's tough to learn to be an adult person and a married person at the same time.
Marriage and relationship skills aren't necessarily intuitive, and require learning how to interact and communicate with each other in a productive and positive way so that you become a team rather than adversaries. There is you, her, and "the marriage" or "us". Ultimately, both of you have to support the "us", almost as a third entity whose needs might differ somewhat from purely your needs and her needs.
Neither of you are good at it (yet), but both of you are still learning and can learn how to be good at it. Don't despair.
i appreciate that, but i'm honestly just left here wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze, if i'm really wanting to make things work with her, make the marriage work.
it dawned on me this morning, that possibly i'm not feeling her love and affection, because i'm not in love with her anymore. in love with the idea of marriage, and the marriage i want, but not her anymore.
i have no idea anymore... i'm so confused it's downright insane.
The more you are hurt, beat down, ignored, criticized...the less you love someone. It's human nature.
The Love Bucket:
There's this bucket when you get married and it's pretty full of all the loving things she did for you when you were dating (and not having to deal with bills together, kids, taxes, work, etc. - all your time was fun time; easy to fill that Love Bucket).
As you go down the marriage road and have to learn how to get along in the same house, how to let BOTH of you get what you want and still take care of each other, the Love Busters start. Say she shaves in the shower and leaves the remains there without cleaning it up (eww!). Single, she never cared. Married, she needs to remember you're there now and may not enjoy her shavings.
Each Love Buster that she does to you pokes a hole in your Love Bucket. A little of that love you feel for her, stored up, starts to leak out the hole. Another LB, another hole. She may still be loving on you, which replenishes the love in the bucket, but at some point she may start poking more LB holes in the bucket faster than she can replace the love now pouring out of the big gaping holes. There's a tipping point at which no matter what she does, it won't be enough to make up for all the LB NOT-love you feel. Unless she changes and stops LBing you (going out with the girls, etc.)
Same goes for you, of course. But it sounds like right now, you have little bucket left.
You are going to HAVE to address her LBs or you won't stay married. Telling her 'your choice' was a passive aggressive SET-UP so that you get to stay the victim and pull out the 'look what you're doing to me' card. VERY unattractive. I know, I played it for years.
What's needed here is for you to realize you CAN leave her and WILL, unless she becomes the wife you need. Once you reach that, you will then feel safe to say 'Excuse me? After all that's happened, you're wanting to go out AGAIN? I'll tell you what - you go ahead and go out; I'll be here packing your suitcases.'
QUOTE=turnera;866883]The more you are hurt, beat down, ignored, criticized...the less you love someone. It's human nature.
The Love Bucket:
There's this bucket when you get married and it's pretty full of all the loving things she did for you when you were dating (and not having to deal with bills together, kids, taxes, work, etc. - all your time was fun time; easy to fill that Love Bucket).
As you go down the marriage road and have to learn how to get along in the same house, how to let BOTH of you get what you want and still take care of each other, the Love Busters start. Say she shaves in the shower and leaves the remains there without cleaning it up (eww!). Single, she never cared. Married, she needs to remember you're there now and may not enjoy her shavings.
Each Love Buster that she does to you pokes a hole in your Love Bucket. A little of that love you feel for her, stored up, starts to leak out the hole. Another LB, another hole. She may still be loving on you, which replenishes the love in the bucket, but at some point she may start poking more LB holes in the bucket faster than she can replace the love now pouring out of the big gaping holes. There's a tipping point at which no matter what she does, it won't be enough to make up for all the LB NOT-love you feel. Unless she changes and stops LBing you (going out with the girls, etc.)
Same goes for you, of course. But it sounds like right now, you have little bucket left.
You are going to HAVE to address her LBs or you won't stay married. Telling her 'your choice' was a passive aggressive SET-UP so that you get to stay the victim and pull out the 'look what you're doing to me' card. VERY unattractive. I know, I played it for years.
What's needed here is for you to realize you CAN leave her and WILL, unless she becomes the wife you need. Once you reach that, you will then feel safe to say 'Excuse me? After all that's happened, you're wanting to go out AGAIN? I'll tell you what - you go ahead and go out; I'll be here packing your suitcases.'
In a nice, non-LB way, of course. [/QUOTE] Posted via Mobile Device
The more I read the more I think that one day the OP is going to wake up and realizing that he's beating a dead horse here...
True affection is by definition naturally and organically given...it's utterly impossible to give forced affection ...and have it still be defined as and more importantly feel like affection.
And I'm sorry. I get the whole languages of love thing to an extent...but here we must make the distinction between LOVE and ATTRACTION
At the end of the day if you have no desire to "love on" you spouse thats a HUGE PROBLEM...I don't care how many dishes you clean or rugs you vacuum...you have lost your "attraction" to the person at the very least...if not your love for them
You don't clean the house to show someone you're "attracted to them"
That's one thing at the heart of this OP...do you think your wife feels attracted to you? If you don't---she's probably not...not saying you can't reclaim that...but I am saying it's a core problen
Also, even in very emotionally inhibited people you can usually sense a desire to "let the walls come down"...even if they can't act on it well...usually these people will find it easier to be affectionate with a pet or baby...(something that they don't have take a risk of rejection with)
That would involve you "reading" your wife and gauging were her distance comes from
I partially agree with you. However, feeling attracted is still a function of the brain. When our brains get cluttered with things that interfere with being receptive to another person, both men and women can have a tough time feeling sexy or affectionate. On the other side of that same coin, we can feel attraction or develop attraction for someone because of how they treat us.
Matty, I've been away quite a bit this week and just now am sitting back down at my computer. I saw where you asked me to qualify my statement that I see hypocrisy and double standards in your posts (a reply to my post on page 3 of this thread.)
I'll quote statements you've made in this thread, and then insert my thoughts that lead me to believe there are double-standards and hypocrisy by using italics:
YOU: my point was that i typically give her direction, and she does it that day when it's fresh in the head. next day and thereafter, unless i remind her, it doesn't get done. i shouldn't have to remind her every day to show me love and affection.
This sounds very controlling on your part, and very resistant on her part. This would work against her feeling valued and appreciated. It also indicates that you may feel like your beliefs and priorities are automatically superior to whatever hers might be.
YOU: for me, affection is an "untangible" for me... i can't describe it, and i certainly have no idea how to build it... it's just there. so, for me, i haven't a clue how to help her out on this. i could show her the actions, and she could do them, but there again, it's just the actions. it's not done with the "feeling". does any of that make sense? am i just crazy and should i be happy with the actions even if i can' sense an emotional feeling in conjunction with the action?
You're upset that you can't measure something you're not even able to define. This means that no matter what she does, neither of you will be able to say it's satisfactory. In a later post, you described making plans to celebrate your marriage. When she changed her plans to do what you wanted, you still weren't satisfied. This is what her life feels like to her - nothing she does will measure up, and the rules change as she goes along. If she spit shined your shoes every morning, you'd still be able to say there's no affection there. She cannot succeed because you're creating an environment that ONLY allows for failure.
Meanwhile, what SHE thinks is showing affection and love gets completely rejected by you. She does things for you, and you tell her "it doesn't matter." In fact, even when she lets you "tell her" what to do and follows your direction, she's rewarded with criticism. For instance, she didn't make an appointment on YOUR timeline, so you hammered at her until she did it the way you wanted. When it got done, instead of celebrating that she came to your side, you b*tch about it. When she set aside her plans for the weekend to participate in something YOU set up without her influence - and maybe without even asking what she thought was the best way to celebrate your marriage - you don't give her credit for it. Instead, you focus on poor you, who had to face the possibility of going alone.
YOU: i've given a lot... done a lot for her over the years. i could do more, but in some ways, i'm waiting to see how important it is to her to step up and start showing me love in a way that i can feel it.
i just feel like sometimes she doesn't really listen, and i have to "hammer" in the point... it's probably a fault of mine.
Your decision on what is "doing enough" clearly implies that what SHE thinks is enough doesn't count. You've again discredited her efforts and beliefs because you're so focused on your own. Yet this is exactly what you're upset about - that she puts herself first instead of treasuring the things you've done for her.
YOU: what this really gets at... is thinking that the other person thinks and feels the same way about everything. if your needs are getting met, then of course your partners needs are getting met... right? wrong. dead wrong. (unless you both have the same love language). how you show your love shouldn't be a chore in changing to a different language, because it doesn't impact how you receive love from your partner. it should be a relatively simple task of modifying your thought process of "i want to show love, and so i'll do "x" because i like "x". instead it should be "i want to show love, and he'll like "y" , so i'll do "y" because he would appreciate that."
You're not doing this, but you expect it from her. You say only that you "should" recognize that she is "trying." What a crappy attitude! You should feel blessed that a woman in this world cares enough about you to let you influence the way she goes through her days, who loves you enough that she wants to keep a clean home for you, and who loves you enough that she's willing to see a counselor with you. Instead, you're on here criticizing her ways and sticking to your own. What gives you the right to say she should feel blessed for all that you've done for her, when your methods meet her needs as much as a clean kitchen does yours?
That sounds harsher than I mean it to, but I don't know how else to make the point. You are BOTH doing the best you have with the tools you've got. If you want to be treated like her Superhero, you've GOT to learn how to adopt her values and priorities as much as you want her to adopt yours. If my husband gave me so little credit as you give your wife, I would not consider marriage counseling because I'd be busy packing.
18Likes
Re: Just finished our first MC session... 
