The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!
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Old 07-22-2009, 09:57 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

If your thinking about movies where the poor women was deceived and manipulated, get over it. I'm not talking about brainwashing or any crazy **** like that. Manipulating can be as simple as acting like your sick to get out of having to mow the grass, or as complex as getting your hubby to have a threesome. It is natural and human nature to do it but its how you do it, why you do it and whether or not you should do it that determines whether or not your right to do it.

My wife is going to set up an account to help explain what I mean. No it won't be me posing as someone else. I am mindful of my manipulations and no longer do it to my wife because I don't need to. Most marriages are not built on manipulations but most people stay married because they are manipulated to being empathetic, or understanding, everybody is just too dense to see it. You can tell me all day long that you don't or didn't used to manipulate your husband or wife, my wife does it to me and I let her because I don't mind doing what she wants most of the time. Even though she thinks she has to manipulate me to do stuff that are part of the things she usually does, it doesn't bother me, because its usually an act of desperation and I am empathetic so I understand that the kids and house can be overwhelming at times, and I'm glad to help.

Consequences to negative actions are a form of manipulation and are necessary for all of society.

If you think about it, it isn't any different than the show Intervention. They manipulate them into a dialog, then manipulate them into self reflection, then the person sees what they have become and chooses to change for the better, and after its done they have better relationships etc. They know that that person is unwilling to change and they hurt the ones they love. You can say well they have an addiction. True, but being a **** hurts too and can be just as difficult to open a dialog with that type of person. Usually only the person who's problem it is can fix it. You can help them be a better person. You can't just say "well if your not going to talk to me I give up". People usually have to be coaxed into a situation where they can fix their problems, because you cannot fix their problems for them.

The wife who is tired of housework asks her unwilling husband to help around the house. He says he will but never does, so she goes on strike. Good for her right, the house is a pigsty for 2 weeks before he "understands her position" and starts helping out. Now she happy, and he's more understanding.
He had to go through several stages to get there:

resistance, to what she wanted him to do
witness, the consequences to his actions
anger, because of loss of control
guilt, from seeing what she had to do every day
self reflection, questioning whether he was right or not
empathy, from realizing how hard this is on the one he loves
giving in, because he realized it was the right thing to do

She manipulated him into undergoing a self reflecting session, he felt empathetic and started helping around the house. She may not have even realized she was manipulating him, but she still did it and was not wrong for doing it.

Even though you may not see it, the way I manipulate people is to force a positive self reflection. I create a setting to induce empathy, and therefor self reflection. It may seem superficial but if you read into it you will see. I can't put up with years of counseling, fighting, and heart ache. I get to the root of the problem then generate a setting for self reflection for the one issue through manipulation. The outcome is normally beneficial, and if it makes everyone happy who cares. We need less science and more common sense. Believe it or not I have taken complete strangers (usually men) who are having marital problems and in 20 min made them realize its their fault, then they fix it. Not seek counseling which costs more money and creates more stress, or waiting years for the problems to "fix themselves". I am a realist, up front, and brutally honest. Bleeding hearts are great for support if that's whats needed because there is no fix, fine that's not me and I'll stay out of it. My wife went from no sense at all to completly self aware through lots of self reflection about her actions and the way they effect others; after a while I didn't have to force it. Now she does it on her own and very rarely makes mistakes especially socially. I think she is brilliant. That doesn't mean she does everything I ask her to like a slave, because that is definetly not true. We have a very open relationship and talk about our problems all the time. We constantly work to have a better marriage. She is aware that I have had to manipulate her into seeing that something was wrong or to make her a better person, and shes fine with that because she has done it to me as well and I am glad she did. Maybe its just the way I do it? I am not mean. I don't do it to make people do what I want them to, I do it so they see whats right. Sometimes people just needs to get off of his high horse and making them feel inferior is the fastest way to open a dialog. People are less complex than the sciences that study them. There is beauty in simplicity. It doesn't have to be some long drawn out solution. Sometimes its best if people see who they really are.

AND NO I'M NOT TRYING TO GET YOUR GOAT! I'M A REALIST AND NOT A BLEEDING HEART.

What do you think?
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

Everyone needs to be in control............

of themselves.
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:05 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

Most people are not and have to be shown the way, by being shown their wrong. You can't just tell someone their wrong and expect them to fix it, and if they do fix it by just being to ld they already knew they were wrong.
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:12 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

I find it an interesting proposition Goatz. I think get what you are saying.
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:12 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

whats wrong to you may be right for them...
you are dealing with adults, right? as most adults will not like or appriciate your trying to enforce your opinions and preferences upon them.
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

In a way your right, but I know when I'm right and wrong and admit it freely. That is very important when you are trying to light the way for others.
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:46 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

You would be better to spend your time learning to control yourself, not others.
You know what they say...

its not what happens to you in life, but your reaction to it.

Your ideas of becomeing a master manipulator, are going to be a waste of time. People need to be able to control themselves and their reactions far more than learning to manipulate others.
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:59 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

And how do you propose we teach them how to control themselves. I have helped a lot more people than I have hurt by the way, and if I hurt them it was intentional. Besides it doesn't have anything to do with becoming a master manipulator, and I'm not putting myself on some sort of pedestal. It simply has to do with teaching others empathy, that's what it all boils down to. It isn't how you always get there, it is the end result. Despite the way I do it, if you can resolve a a problem in 3 days as opposed to 3 months and the result is the same and both people are happy even knowing how I got there, whats the problem? They are happy and don't care how it was done, as opposed to months of fighting and therapy and talking their way through it. Everyone just wants to be happy, I'm not stealing anything from them. They don't do anything that they aren't willing to do, I just open a channel so that they can let themselves. I don't do it for selfish purposes any more, I now know that is wrong. I make things better not worse. I prevent a lot of unnecessary bs. I do it faster than talking. It is more effective and longer lasting. If you want to talk till your blue in the face for weeks or months go ahead but in the end your still only trying to get them to see how their wrong just like me but I do it faster.
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:49 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

i think you should wear a cape.
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

Quote:
Originally Posted by recent_cloud View Post
i think you should wear a cape.
I do.
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goatz View Post
I do.
and tights.

spandex tights.

i assume tights go with the cape.
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:48 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

Yup, but they are so tight I have to manipulate my ass into them.

The problem everyone has with manipulation is it brings out a sense that you are not in control. If you think you are in control you are already out of control. Nobody is in control, they cannot always control the way they feel, who they have to be around, or what they have to do. Understand that I speak of the literal definition of manipulation not the kind you see on Jerry Springer. There is no brainwashing, hypnosis, or slave like states of mind. It isn't so you can cheat on your spouse or swindle money from family. It is to create a sense of empathy that they already have but just bringing it out in them. It is a way to break communication barriers, and make them show themselves how they have wronged someone.

This is not some form of nazi mind control. Besides society and your parents have manipulated you into who you are today. If you were bad there were consequences to teach you right from wrong. But how do you punish an adult? You could just leave them but that will not solve anything. Or you could show them how they have wronged you by taking them down a few notches and make them think about what they have done and how they hurt you. After that it's up to them to change and fix it. You can't just tell someone they are mean and expect them to change, it's ridiculous. So tell me you don't manipulate people and I will tell you your a liar. Even if it isn't for selfish reasons you still do it, you all do it. Good or bad it's human nature and unavoidable. So get over it and come to terms with the fact that everyone in some form or another does it!

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Old 07-22-2009, 02:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

lol

Well... all very flowery goatz. But, still - if you are in the 'deciding seat' all the time when it comes to control, how on earth will you know when you need to be *cough* persuaded to change?

You say you know what is right and wrong. all the time. But, doesn't that make you infallible? are you willing to accept the responsibility of having to be right every. single. time?

And isn't it ALOT of work going around setting up all these 'lessons' for people to learn? I mean, call me lazy, but even to save my own marriage I don't think I have it in me to go around setting up complex 'lessons' to my hubby to learn.

He loved me once. He knows what right and wrong is (and looks good in his cape and is a hell of a swordsman but chose pants over tights as his package was just too large to fit in the standard tights ) with regards to loving me back. But FREE WILL. CHOICE.

That is his. He can choose to ignore me. Or love me. Or say he's sorry. Or manipulate me. Or any number of good, evil or other CHOICES.

So when you are right all the time (aka God) and when you have taken it upon yourself to teach those under you (everybody?) lessons (parental / godlike stuff) and chosen as your means of doing this to play games and manipulate to bring others to self realization and positive change (parables, miracles, manipulation - typical usual god stuff) no wonder the monotheistic gods finally chose to let the lesser beings use "free will" They got sick and tired of trying to help them see the light and having to show them the way all the time.
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Old 07-22-2009, 02:39 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

i never said i did or did not manipulate anyone.

i just said your should wear a cape.

and i guessed you wore spandex tights.

and you responded that your were good at manipulating asses,
especially your own.
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Old 07-22-2009, 02:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: The truth about manipulation. It's not what you think!

Commonsense will tell you what is right and wrong, and I have a lot of that. But I understand your female perspective, because you are usually the victims of selfish manipulation. Everybody is their own god and their own temple. You went a little bit overboard with the whole god thing though, it's kinda weird. Call me not lazy but I never give up on people I care about. I too am manipulated but at least I am aware of it. I pay taxes, I work, I shop at Walmart, and I was in the military, we are all manipulated to do these things, we don't have to but we do. Guess what? The military is where I learned how to manipulate people, because I watched and paid attention to how they used people. I don't use people or manipulate for selfish reasons unless those people have done it to me. Nobody is perfect, but we can help each other to become better people. My way is quicker, less painful, and longer lasting. And it still gets the same results!

You seem like the type who is unwilling to give in even when your wrong, you like to think your in control all of the time and that you think you know everything that is going on around you. You get mad if you are left out of the loop. You think of yourself as a strong women who is wise and will argue to the death if its something you don't like again even if your wrong. You most likely don't show a lot of affection to your husband mostly because you don't trust men. You can't stand the idea of someone being in control of you especially a man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by recent_cloud View Post
i never said i did or did not manipulate anyone.

i just said your should wear a cape.

and i guessed you wore spandex tights.

and you responded that your were good at manipulating asses,
especially your own.
I just like the way they hug my oo 's. LOL
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