General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
My wife and I have been married for about a month now. About six months ago my then fiance had an emotional affair. This was an older male friend who she hadn't seen for a number of years, started hanging out together while I wasn't home. I expressed concern that I didn't like she was spending time with this man even in the context of friendship but it really didn't connect with her. It started as a mentor type friendship, but he made it clear that he wanted to be with her even though he knew all about me. Instead of removing herself from this situation it continued until I stumbled across her email account that had been left logged in and discovered the nature of things. He professed open love for her in pretty much every single email. Told her he wished he could be with her, would take care of her is she ever needed anything, wondered what their lives would be like together if only they could be, etc. Also his opinions on how I should be more understanding of her and her inner beauty whenever we had a point of contention filled many emails as well, as though he could appreciate her better than I and anything we disagreed on he could "see her side" and I was wrong. I do believe that this was only an emotional affair, nothing physical but it still made me feel awful.
There was also flirting and emails of waking up "aching" for a different person that was another male friend of hers. He lived half a world away but they had met in person once may years ago. She was very angry that she "had to" give up that friend when I became angry about it.
I called off the marriage, however through some counseling the therapist asked us if I felt the relationship was worth saving and I conceded that it was since we were deeply in love with each other.
After a month of marriage I noticed her email account again and saw contacts for another ex boyfriend. This was was actually her first intimate partner from many years ago. When I told her it made me feel uncomfortable it was like rehashing all the old discomfort from before. To be fair here are both of our points:
Mine
1. I am old school traditional family values with strong Christian upbringing. I don't believe anything other than the most casual contact with male friends is very healthy for a marriage, and no matter what the context ex-lovers should be definitely in the inappropriate basket.
2. There has already been strains in our relationship in this regard.
3. All for her having friends, why must they include ex-lovers though? Especially after being married.
Her points:
1. She feels like she has to give up her "friends" and feels like she has cut off so many already (i.e. the two guys mentioned at the top of the post at my request)
2. Wants to know how she knows it will stop at this, what else will I tell her she has to change about herself?
3. Says she does not want to close the door on these people as they are important in her life.
There are more, but those are the basics. Now in the name of fairness this is not a choice I expect her to make "or else", keeping contact with ex's is a choice I want her to make on her own. I will issue no ultimatums or any such thing. That being said I will feel resentful if she maintains contact, and she says she will feel resentful if she has to stop. I know people say compromise, but this feels inappropriate to me, how can I compromise, by allowing it to feel "a little bit" inappropriate? I don't see how one can be reached exactly.
I know there are two positions on this, one is that I am being silly, who cares? Let her have her ex lovers as friends! The other is of course you would be sensitive to this, why are they so important to her that she is okay with making you feel this way? We are both experiencing our mutual resentments now. We've had god knows how many talks about it, and they all end in stalemate. I have asked her that if I maintained contact with ex lovers from my past wouldn't she be upset too? She sais she probably would be very upset.
I also need to mention that I was previously married for over a decade and in that time my ex wife had a half dozen plus affairs. They were actively malicious, I define them as emotionally abusive experiences I was put through. So I am a bit sensitive, and yes insecure, but dang it all considering how much I've been through I think it's a little but understandable. She knows about these affairs that were done to me, I have not hidden them from her. When her emotional affair occurred it triggered a massive depressive episode and with therapy we talked about past regression triggers, PTSD, depression, etc.
So I'm wondering am I wrong to want the whole contact with men while she's alone, and contact with ex lovers to stop? Am I being unreasonable and controlling? I feel like all I'm asking her to do is stop engaging in behavior that makes me feel hurt, anxious, and vulnerable. Is that an act of control asking someone to stop doing something that makes you feel that way?
Especially considering that I do have expressed sensitivity to the issue, and there have been strains in our current relationship with actual inappropriate male contact already. I could see if I had baggage from someone else, but nothing has happened in our relationship maybe having a point, but things [I]have[I] happened in our relationship already.
Please be respectful in your responses as I will probably be openly sharing the results of this thread with her. I only seek help and advice for us as a married couple.
Question: How would she feel if the situation was reversed? Would she feel that these are your old friends that should not be cut off, even if the communication between you guys is often romantic/wishful of the past relationship?
What are her values on marriage? Is marriage forever? Are you the one she will spend the REST of her life with?
Emotional affairs can often be more harmful to a marriage than a physical affair. Emotional affairs are sharing the intimate soul that was only supposed to be shared with your spouse/life-time lover.
It does boil down to some strong, well-defined boundaries that are mutually agreed upon. She will have to meet you half-way if she wants this marriage to succeed. You will also have to face (and it sounds like you are trying too) those fears/hurts that were starting from your previous marriage...and make sure you will not bring those into this marriage.
My husband was very untrustworthy at the beginning of our dating relationship, mainly because he had been walked over before by cheating girlfriends and also because he had never dealt with those personal problems. I had to learn though that I could have guy friends, but that the feelings of my husband came first. Now I'm talking rationally here...there has to be a give and take...and you both have to sit down and find the middle ground that you are both comfortable with.
Marriage is about compromise...it will never be smooth/perfect...and I bet you two knew that getting into it. Also keep going to counseling together, and separate...keeping working through the issues. Its when they get buried/pushed down/ignored when the real trouble begins.
With your background, your reactions are understandable. But the question I have for you is, should she be made to pay for what you ex-wife did? Is it your wife's job to reduce all of your anxieties about other men? Or do you need to get back into therapy to heal over your past? Because I think that's where the compromise is going to have to be. You need to do the work that you need to do, too. She could give up 100 men and meet 1 more and you'll go through the same thing all over again. So #1 -- work on yourself. Get that sorted out.
I have this friend I'll call Lou. Because that is his name. Well, Lou has told me he loves me and he would leave his wife for me and etc. etc. etc. We have been friends for dang, 20-some years now. I've been through boyfriends and am on my 2nd marriage now, and he still feels that way. Neither husband forbade the relationship just because Lou digs me in that way. I would have to dig Lou back for there to be any danger. For you, this would be an intolerable situation. But in fact, there is zero danger. None.
I'm not sure that I even see an EA in the first relationship you describe. I see Lou. You didn't mention your wife sharing his feelings. She was thinking about a third party. With whom she has no contact now.
My husband's philosophy is that if I'm going to cheat, there's nothing he can do to stop me. I wish I were as cool about things as he is. But I'm not. I'm much more paranoid. However, I think that your controlling behavior is out of proportion with your wife's alleged offenses.
There will *always* be other men out there and your wife will have contact with them. Should she cultivate serious emotional relationships with other men? No. But contacts in email are not necessarily serious emotional relationships. Heck, I have a bazillion male acquaintences and old friends with which I exchange the occasional email. But I keep check on myself. I prevent me from having an affair. My husband doesn't.
In a way the baggage is a part of who I am. People are nothing more than the sum of their own experiences, right? I have never concealed it's impact in my life, and we have had some hard talks about it.
As for therapy and "getting myself right first" I have been in therapy for these issues for years. It may well be a life long path to healing. When a person experiences PTSD or similar trauma it's really easy for someone to say, fix yourself and get better when you haven't had to live the trauma they did.
I know and recognize that she is not the same person that did those things to me initially. That being said when she had the emotional affair and the flirting email with another man from her past, yes that did bring about a resurgence of insecurity for me, because then it no longer was just something some other person had done.
The example with Lou isn't so black and white. It's only a matter of opinion I realize, but I think a person who activley wants you in a romantic relationship isn't okay for a married woman to hang around with wether it's mutual or not. I just don't see that as appropriate. You would be completely okay with your husband hanging around a woman without you there that makes it known she thinks your husband should be with her and not you, and that she would dump her spouse for?
Also in that regard yes there was some reciprication. An email said she "really, truly loved him too". Also wistful thoughts were shared of wondering what life would be like with him. Also present was complaining about things about me to him. So no, I don't see that as innocent. To her credit she fully admits it was an actual emotional affair. She takes responsibility for it.
Also I must admit I have a major problem with the concept of if I don't want my wife to do something which causes pain and strife in our marriage that it's controlling behavior. Why does this come as an automatic response for so many people. If someone was hitting you, we'll even say unintentionally and you pleaded with them to stop injuring you would that be controlling behavior? So if she stands up for what she believes in and I stand up for what I believe in I am the controlling person. Does it make her controlling that she engages in behavior that is hurtful to me and I should just be forced to accept the pain and bear it? ( to me the answer is no in either case by the way, merely a difference of perspectives)
I don't believe my wife is doing something wrong. I also don't think my feelings are wrong. I believe it is wrong for us as a married couple because it doesn't work and causes strife between us. I fully get that for probably half of married couples this isn't a big deal. But you know what, for half it is. For some people this works, okay great, for me it doesn't. I honestly believe it doesn't make me controlling because I wanted her to stop doing something that causes me pain. I am completely devoted to her in EVERY other aspect of our relationship and aside from this albiet major issue we have a wonderful, deep, loving connection.
I see your point, and I think my husband and I are on the same page with this one and neither would be comfortable with the other staying in contact with old flames.
In regards to EA's in general, they are not limited to ex-flames and can happen with people from work, etc. so I think it's best to discuss boundaries for friendships of the opposite sex. Mainly, that conversations are limited to things you would say/do if your spouse were standing next to you.
Maybe a good start for the two of you would be to discuss your traditional values vs. hers, in general. You want to come to an understanding of each other's needs so that you can love and respect each other within the marriage and perhaps she will realize that this is a hot button for you and want to respect your feelings, but if she comes to find that you have a long list of things that differ from her beliefs you may need to compromise so neither of you feel you must lose yourself within the marriage.
Thanks Swedish. In some ways we are different, but I think there are far more ways we are the same than not. Our values go hand in hand for the most part, but this one was a biggie.
I say was because last night she came to the conclusion that she would sever contact with the ex. She went through a struggle over wether this was the thing to do or not but I think it is important to say that she went through this struggle and came to her own conclusion after weighing many things on both sides. Although I made my feelings on the matter clear, she did as well for her own position and after I did that I did not pressure her or tell her what she must do. While I would resent being forced to accept the pain of her position being forced upon me I was well aware that her resntment should she feel forced into it would be no less than mine. The ex issue seems resolved and agreed upon, not reluctantly either but genuinely.
We do have the issue though of how to handle friends of the opposite sex, it isn;t a current problem, but could be one day. This is where I could use advice. While talking she said she knows that that could be sticky and she wants to be more aware of how to handle such situations, and what would be appropriate vs. inappropriate. It is especially important to know how to proceede since the man that the emotional affair occured with was simply a male friend and not an ex or anything. She says she can see why my view on it is the way it is, but that previously she never thought about things in this way and she wants to know more about it.
I guess here is my thought on the matter: friends of the opposite sex shouldn't be spending time alone with your partner in any significant way, not that anything necessarily [I]will[I] happen, but in the case of the man that the EA did occur with he initiated it and she fell into it. My opinion is why put yourself in a compromising situation. I think that is fair. I asked how she would feel about me having a female friend I spent alone time with and she said she probably would not like it eiher and it would make her feel all kinds of negatove emotions.
I think having friends of the opposite sex is okay in the example of we as a couple are friends with another couple, but that say me spedning time alone with that wife without mine present or her husband present is just probably not a good idea. Not that anything bad would happen, but it just has the potential to be compromising, so why go there?
We are trying to lay the groundwork for what we are mutually deciding our boundaries on this issue should be so that it doesn't one day become a problem. Please keep in mind we are trying to work this out together as for what is the best fit for both of us as a couple, this isn;t about what I want, or what she wants, but about what works best for both of us together so that we have a solid foundation and can together weather any storm.
In that vein, what are some ways you guys have handled this situation, what are your rules? (unwritten, or otherwise) What do you find works best for you. What are your mutual understandings or perceptions? I understand that many people may have many different thoughts on that but I value different ideas as long as they are respectful.
I'm glad you were able to come to a mutual agreement. It helps that you both seem to be on the same page and that she would feel the same if the situation were reversed.
I think the main thing with avoiding future situations is to put boundaries in place when it comes to friends of the opposite sex. I personally don't think it's a good idea to discuss marital issues (which falls under the 'if my spouse were standing here, would I be saying this?' umbrella and to keep the lines of communication open as far as issues within the marriage so you don't crave opposite sex attention elsewhere.
"As for therapy and "getting myself right first" I have been in therapy for these issues for years. It may well be a life long path to healing. When a person experiences PTSD or similar trauma it's really easy for someone to say, fix yourself and get better when you haven't had to live the trauma they did."
I never said it was easy. And I know of what I have experienced an enormous amount of trauma in my life. So I'm not just throwing out answers.
And while I agree that your wife should be sensitive to your pain, it seems that you are asking more of her than the situation warrants if she isn't doing anything wrong. All this says to me is that you have no trust in her.
Anyway, I agree with Swedish about not discussing your marriage with someone of the opposite sex, especially if it has something to do with an area in which you are unhappy. That leads to comparisons and empathy and "feelings". If you have a problem with your spouse, you go to your same-sex friends or to a neutral third party or to your spouse. You don't confide in the opposite sex...
You also shouldn't flirt, even playfully or jokingly.
As far as my example of Lou, if over more than 20 years I have had no interest in pursuing a relationship with him, I think it is pretty clear that I never will. And that's good enough for my current spouse and it was good enough for my previous spouse. If my husband had the same relationship with another woman I could handle it. Lou has made statements, but he's not pushy, mushy, or trying to woo me or win me away. He's just stated things that are for him, facts about his feeilngs for me.
Thanks swedish, helpful advice, good link. dobo, I'm sorry you feel that I am asking more of her than the situation warrants, please take into account that there was inappropriate contact on her end with more than one male and if that doesn't legitimize my feelings then I don't know if anything I can say about it would ever get you to see my point of view. I can tell we have very different views on this because of your friend situation and your responses to it. I want you to know though that I recognize that it is what works for you I just ask that you are open to the fact that isn't what works for me
There are all kinds of marital commitments that span the gap from no friends of the opposite sex for either partner to open marriages and everything in between. It is important to recognize what works for one will not work for all.
Contact with ex's, etc. advise please...
