I'm now sitting here in a half empty house. It's an odd feeling, it's like a bad dream that I can't wake up from. It's really happening. My love has walked out on me. I've been on an emotional roller coaster since late Oct.
Thats when she told me that she was thinking of divorce and that she'd be leaving in January.
I love my wife, I'm a good guy, I won't even consider cheating, I'm not abusive verbally or mentally. I don't play games, we always are able to work out our problems and don't go to bed mad.
This is the "nice guy" scenario, all too common I'm afraid.
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I am still stunned about what has happened. She says we don't connect emotionally, don't communicate. She says she needs time to figure herself out. She seems to be a totally different person that I've never known. I'm very confused.
Sexual attraction and emotional connection are intertwined. A woman will not connect emotionally to a man she is not attracted to, and especially who does not make her feel sexually attractive herself.
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Someone at lunch had commented that one cannot honestly truly be happy in a relationship unless they are happy with themselves.
She said that our whole relationship has been a lie. So basically i've been living in a dream for the last 5 years, 2 of which we are married. we even got remarried recently and have been trying to have children.
When a woman "checks out" like this, which is just saying the emotional connection is broken, it is startling how cold and changed the woman can become, even a woman that a man has known and been together with for years.
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We are both busy people, but even though i'm a dense dumb guy, i still live and learn and make adjustments, thats just life. She's been busy all year, and when she finally got unbusy I've realized that we've changed roles. I'm now the one wanting to spend time and just be together.
Earlier in our relationship, she said that I wasn't giving her what she needed, (quality time, physical touch) I'd just play games, watch tv, study for work etc. so she put up a wall, a wall that would she would just continue building to tell herself that she doesn't need what she wants. The wall has gotten so tall that she isn't able to see over it or move it. She's like a totally different person. We're on opposite sides of the lets stay married spectrum. (she stopped going to marriage counseling after two sessions, but says she'll continue again later after being moved)
I got the I love you but I'm not in love with you bit there.
Again this is the lack of sexual attraction has killed the emotional connection.
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It's like some sort of identity crisis she's going through and the only way she can figure it out is to move out. I volunteered to give her space etc....to no avail. She says she needs to do this. There is nothing I can do. I've started to see a counselor myself in the meantime.
This is often contested on this site, but my opinion is unchanged, the "giving space" is merely the woman letting the man down easy over time, rather than crushing him all at once.
And if there is another affair man in the picture, this is double bad news.
Often the last chance a man has to show his woman he is man enough to stand up for the relationship and for her, is to see this request for "space" for what it is, a test of his love for her.
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We just went through the most akward holidays ever. At least the families were being nice.
I really want things to work out, but at the same time I think its messed up that we both have to move and I have to wait for her to make up her mind as to if she wants to stay married or not.
Do not fall into this trap. A woman "needing space" because she is "confused" is doing just one thing, wanting to see her man stand up for her. Even I feel like a broken record to have to keep beating this drum, but it is important.
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I mean who wants to start over again? i dont. (with dating, relationship building etc.)
You will be starting over, the dating, relationship building, everything. This has already been decided by your woman.
Your decision will be, will you start over with your wife, or find some other woman in the future.
Your woman is already moving to happiness for herself.
The sooner you resolve to not be reactive, but instead proactive to this truth, the sooner the ball is in your court to resolve the relationship trouble and move toward happiness for yourself.
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I'm so confused, I'm dying on the inside, I don't know what to say, and I know the only thing left to do is wait. (time will tell and time will heal i guess) I really do love her and this is killing me.
Time is not on your side. If you "wait" to see what happens, I will tell you right now what you will end up seeing, and it will be not make you happy.
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She's calling it a trial separation, so i guess thats positive. but i dont want to be strung along. I dont deserve that.
The action you need to be doing is just the thing as mentioned above, to have the resolve to build the relationship.
This is just what it sounds like, do not grovel, beg, cry, or bring up your past history together to try to guilt your woman. This is going to do only one thing, repulse her from you.
Instead, as if you were to date her for the very first time, focus instead on pulling yourself together, improving your appearance and confidence, and show the resolve to become this thing, a man in control of himself and his environment, the dominant man.
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gonna go to work and try to forget about it. its so hard to stay positive.
thx for reading the rant, had to get it off my chest.
thank you wolf,
I appreciate the insight. I know what you speak of is what must be done and I do want to start doing these things.
My head is still spinning and I still dont know what to do. It's been a week now and we haven't talked. I don't know if thats good or bad, but I'm putting it on her to make first contact.
I will not grovel, beg or cry. These are things I've told myself I will not do.
I know she is physically sexually attracted to me, but i think you hit the nail on the head with 'Sexual attraction and emotional connection are intertwined. A woman will not connect emotionally to a man she is not attracted to, and especially who does not make her feel sexually attractive herself. '
I will focus on pulling myself together now as if i were to date her for the first time, and for myself.
If you can only read one book about this stuff read "Mating in captivity". That comment about dying for her - is part of a pattern of being too nice, and emotionally crowding her.
I know this sucks but I really believe that the things that have kept it hot for us are:
- We have both stayed fit for ourselves and each other - this is a sign of commitment to passion that really means something
- I make an effort to keep it fun and light most of the time. She is happy to be around me as I radiate an upbeat vibe. I don't avoid serious stuff but don't dwell on it.
- She knows she is my highest priority but I don't crowd her. I never try and pull her off a call with friends - never pressure her to come home soon when she is out or working late - really and truly never. In fact I stay a half ratchet further away from her then she wants so she gets to come to me - call it a light chase. She knows I love her and am committed - but that is way different then crowding someone. I say I love you just a bit less then she does. Stuff like that matters. I think she considers me a little bit of a challenge but NOT a flirt and NOT a cheat. High trust factor - low emotional claustrophobia factor.
- I make sure to playfully overpower her physically on a regular basis. I never hurt her - and am not jerky about it. Think lion cubs when they wrestle - except I always win.
- When we argue she usually wins. If she is biitchy about something I inflict serious emotional pain before it resolves. Who cares if you say your sorry even when you weren't really wrong. Make it painful enough and wife is not going to be nasty to you very often. My primary pain infliction is simply the absence of the really fun/helpful guy she is used to. He gets replaced by quiet / unhelpful guy.
- I made sure to learn just how aggressive/dominant she wanted me to be "in bed" and I am that way because it is what works best for HER - also fun for me . This last matters a lot in the friendzone avoidance scheme.
- I am NOT conflict avoidant with her. But I don't yell and scream and / or threaten when we have conflict. I have worked hard to learn how to ask a very tough question in a sharp tone of voice and then let her answer hang and hang and hang. Very uncomfortable to be on the receiving end of this. I only do it when provoked.
thanks for sharing what works for you....i will try some of these things if ever given the chance.
It just sounds like you bored her out of any interest in you. You are nearly pure Beta Male. You need to add some Alpha Male excitment and flair.
I am afraid that i may have. I also fear she gave up years ago
i do have some of that 'flair' but it doesnt help when she's totally not into anything sexual. she didn't even try the last year, that didn't help me either.
If you can only read one book about this stuff read "Mating in captivity". That comment about dying for her - is part of a pattern of being too nice, and emotionally crowding her.
I know this sucks but I really believe that the things that have kept it hot for us are:
- We have both stayed fit for ourselves and each other - this is a sign of commitment to passion that really means something
- I make an effort to keep it fun and light most of the time. She is happy to be around me as I radiate an upbeat vibe. I don't avoid serious stuff but don't dwell on it.
- She knows she is my highest priority but I don't crowd her. I never try and pull her off a call with friends - never pressure her to come home soon when she is out or working late - really and truly never. In fact I stay a half ratchet further away from her then she wants so she gets to come to me - call it a light chase. She knows I love her and am committed - but that is way different then crowding someone. I say I love you just a bit less then she does. Stuff like that matters. I think she considers me a little bit of a challenge but NOT a flirt and NOT a cheat. High trust factor - low emotional claustrophobia factor.
- I make sure to playfully overpower her physically on a regular basis. I never hurt her - and am not jerky about it. Think lion cubs when they wrestle - except I always win.
- When we argue she usually wins. If she is biitchy about something I inflict serious emotional pain before it resolves. Who cares if you say your sorry even when you weren't really wrong. Make it painful enough and wife is not going to be nasty to you very often. My primary pain infliction is simply the absence of the really fun/helpful guy she is used to. He gets replaced by quiet / unhelpful guy.
- I made sure to learn just how aggressive/dominant she wanted me to be "in bed" and I am that way because it is what works best for HER - also fun for me . This last matters a lot in the friendzone avoidance scheme.
- I am NOT conflict avoidant with her. But I don't yell and scream and / or threaten when we have conflict. I have worked hard to learn how to ask a very tough question in a sharp tone of voice and then let her answer hang and hang and hang. Very uncomfortable to be on the receiving end of this. I only do it when provoked.
i really didn't crowd her at all, i was actually happy that she would go out with friends.....she doesn't have many. as for the 'die for you' comment, she said that i should live for myself, dont ever say that.....and I had no objective when i said that. I just said what i feel. I wasn't angling to make her feel one way or the other.....maybe it did crowd her and i didnt even know it. thanks for reading and the insight.
wow, BigBadWolf really had some tough pills to swallow, but I think most of it rings true.
Although I'm still very confused about things, i think i see a glimmer of light through the fog.
I am confused by this one topic - Is her leaving me really a test of love? "Often the last chance a man has to show his woman he is man enough to stand up for the relationship and for her, is to see this request for "space" for what it is, a test of his love for her."
i'm a little confused by this because she knows damn well i love her. change isn't enough for her. she mentioned whatever i do will never be good enough for her during a marriage counseling session.
is it her messed up thinking and doing a test?
things are getting harder each day.....its only been a week on my own in my new apt. its so strange to me still. and stranger is that we arent even talking.....(normal i guess) just sent a few administrative emails back and forth about money and the last place we lived. nothing else, no phone calls....(i guess its still early?) we did agree to see eachother at least once a week....it hasn't happened the first week.
i guess i'm just overanalyzing things since i have more alone time myself.
i guess i'll give it another week........but my friends all say put it on her to make contact since she instigated this whole thing...
wow, BigBadWolf really had some tough pills to swallow, but I think most of it rings true.
Although I'm still very confused about things, i think i see a glimmer of light through the fog.
I am confused by this one topic - Is her leaving me really a test of love? "Often the last chance a man has to show his woman he is man enough to stand up for the relationship and for her, is to see this request for "space" for what it is, a test of his love for her."
i'm a little confused by this because she knows damn well i love her. change isn't enough for her. she mentioned whatever i do will never be good enough for her during a marriage counseling session.
is it her messed up thinking and doing a test?
things are getting harder each day.....its only been a week on my own in my new apt. its so strange to me still. and stranger is that we arent even talking.....(normal i guess) just sent a few administrative emails back and forth about money and the last place we lived. nothing else, no phone calls....(i guess its still early?) we did agree to see eachother at least once a week....it hasn't happened the first week.
i guess i'm just overanalyzing things since i have more alone time myself.
i guess i'll give it another week........but my friends all say put it on her to make contact since she instigated this whole thing...
thanks for reading...
It is easy to overanalyze, but I will say this, based on this post.
Do NOT assume in any way, shape, or form that your woman knows any more than you do about this situation.
Read that sentence again many times if necessary.
It is too easy for a man to think that his woman knows the solution to the relationship trouble, and is merely withholding it from him deliberately, and for him to resent her for this.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
At best, your woman will communicate truthfully how you are making her feel, and during these times even that is over and above what to expect. Do not expect or rely on any more information than this, especially do not put stock into words, instead look for the actions and behavior. There is where the truth resides.
For a woman to say "it will never work" or any such thing, do not take that as anything other than this:
You are making her FEEL right now that it will never work.
If you are to save this marriage, you must change how you make her feel.
And again on the "space" issue.
To take this time to become the man in control of himself, and his environment, and in this case to begin "dating" your wife again, is the only beneficial thing you can do to win your woman back.
If instead, you choose to "wait and see" what your woman "decides" after she is no longer "confused", then you are merely communicating to her, again in your actions not words, that she is not important enough for you to fight for.
And regarding advice from your friends, remember to pursue the action that will lead you to happiness, no one else can decide that for you with certainty.
And if that is that you want to fight for your marriage, then fight hard with everything you have.
today was the first day of contact....yeah it was me i broke.
i was holding out.....but it was exercise night (we take a class, i dont want to specify to be too obvious if someone is lurking) and i needed to give her stuff back and get keys for the house to return to the landlord.......
i talked to her over the computer...IM....just being nice, asking how she's been etc....not a whole lot, but its been 15 days of silence.
i see her at class and she leaves, she isn't feeling well. i walk her out to the parking lot and feel awkward, i dont even know if i should hug her.....i just pat her arm and say bye.....
so yesterday was our first weekly 'date' just dinner after an exercise class. I tried to keep the mood light and pretend that I'm doing ok and everything is going ok. we go to a favorite place that we used to frequent...i pay (the usual) and we sit and chat a bit....we ask how eachother is doing and such.....my goal is to give her a marriage counselor's number that she can call and schedule a few appts by herself before we do it jointly. to my suprise she asks before i get to it. I give her the number. she says March is when we should begin jointly again.
she does mention how she loves living by herself now (she's never lived by herself before) and how she hasnt bothered to unpack fully or anything....that doesnt surprise me much. anyhow, i went into it positive, and got her to agree to counseling, but i feel like its over for good as each day passes.
I think this forum is going to attract "nice guys" because only a nice guy would visit this forum because their marriage is/was important to them, right?
As usual, I find BigBadWolf's advice dead on and agree with it.
If this is any help at all, if you are a visual/imagery type of guy, I "mentally" took the "Nice Guy" in me out behind the shed and shot him. It was time to end that person. I am much happier as a result.
Or if you need another form of imagery. . .Good Kirk/Bad Kirk. Good Kirk in that old Star Trek episode realized he needed the Bad Kirk to pilot the Enterprise, that that was where his command abilities lay. So in the end, the crew decides to "morph" them back together so he is fully functional
You are going to need the Bad Nice Guys Finish Last person to pilot you through this now whether it's divorce or reconciliation.
Also, if I can add a piece of advice, if this proceeds to divorce (and I sincerly hope it does not), remember this -
Divorce (and marriage) is nothing more than a business transaction. It's kind of cynical and cold. . .but the mantra helped me really get a decent settlement in divorce. . .I negotiated my terms, held firm on some, surrendered a few others. . .knew when to fold (custody is a losing battle) on others.
Try to drive her into mediation and work towards settlement as the goal.
Also, I use to my advantage that she was itching to move on and I was in no hurry. . .had all the time in the world. This will drive a settlement more to your favor.
Good luck either way. Despite my "coaching", I hope she has a change of heart.
Love,
Bad Scannerguard
PS: For the forum who are not Nice Guy Star Trek nerds. . .this was an old but memorable story. The transporter goes awry and splits Captain Kirk into two people - the "Bad" Kirk and the Good Kirk, identical twins. The crew is puzzled by the apparent change in behavior. . .Kirk was just not himself doing bad things but then Good Kirk would walk in and it seemed like the normal Kirk.
Spock finds out about it and connects with Good Kirk but when Good Kirk sits in the captains chair, he finds he's indecisive. He just can't make command decisions.
Of course, they both reason (Spock and Good Kirk) they need the Bad Kirk back for him to be fully functional again so they trick him back into the transporter and morph the two together, making him whole again.
Far-fetched science ficition but a memorable episode becuase it spoke to the reality of human nature and the God and Devil in all of us. I have come to embrace "Bad Scannerguard" over the last 6 months. . .just have to ride that fine balance and not let him rule me.
Anyway, since the theme is "nice guys" in this thread, I thought I'd explain it out some more, probably boring the females
Last edited by Scannerguard; 02-02-2010 at 10:38 PM.
Far-fetched science ficition but a memorable episode becuase it spoke to the reality of human nature and the God and Devil in all of us. I have come to embrace "Bad Scannerguard" over the last 6 months. . .just have to ride that fine balance and not let him rule me.
Anyway, since the theme is "nice guys" in this thread, I thought I'd explain it out some more, probably boring the females
This "Bad Scannerguard" and "Bad Kirk" concepts are most intriguing to me. Thank you for sharing these.
It has not escaped me, during these last few months on this Talk About Marriage forum, to think very similar ideas, but not of "Star Trek" but instead of the movie "Fight Club", that many men on this forum would benefit to meet "Tyler Durden" each for himself.
To have a strange shot at reversal you can always try the romantic "unsell" which goes like this.
I reluctantly agree that the best thing to do is part. I don't think I will meet any else quite like you and that makes me sad. I do however take with me the many happy memories we shared and the genuine desire that you find what you wish in life.
I do think a period of LC would be good - say 6 months - just communicate if needed to return each others physical belongings. After that lets play it by ear
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Originally Posted by BigBadWolf
This "Bad Scannerguard" and "Bad Kirk" concepts are most intriguing to me. Thank you for sharing these.
It has not escaped me, during these last few months on this Talk About Marriage forum, to think very similar ideas, but not of "Star Trek" but instead of the movie "Fight Club", that many men on this forum would benefit to meet "Tyler Durden" each for himself.
The theme in literature is repeated over and over. . .Dr Jeckyll/Mr. Hyde.
The Incredible Hulk. . .the monster that lies dormant in every male - probably the "superhero" I could most identify with.
(My stb-x has learned the David Banner lesson - "Don't make me angry. . .you wouldn't like me when I am angry."
All stories retold with the same theme/moral. There is a dark/necessary side to every human male.
I think "Nice Guys" (this probably deserves a separate thread) sort of are taught if you hold down a job, be a good father, be nice to your wife, be forgiving, that your wife will "reward you" with love/sex/understanding/etc.
It just doesn't work that way unfortunately.
Just like "Good Kirk" who couldn't command the Enterprise. . .I have come to realize that Good Scannerguard was not piloting the relationship well and "the inmate" (my stb-x) was running the assylum. . .thus, I need Bad Scannerguard.
In the end though, Good must subjugate (sp?) the Bad. . .always leaving him just beneath the surface, just slightly tamed, ready to be released. The Good Scannerguard will emerge again.
Well, enough of the philosophical babble. . .back to work, lol. Interesting group of "nice guys" here going through divorce.
Re: wife left me day 1
. This last matters a lot in the friendzone avoidance scheme.
