If my wife ever became pregnant to someone else, I believe I would end it instantly as well. So I certainly don't disagree with that. It's disappointing that she was so stupid. It's one thing to have an affair... I understand the temptations there, but she getting pregnant was just frakking stupid. I'm not sure I'd be divorcing for the affair itself, but I just personally couldn't stay married to such a dumbass.
If I were to speculate on this a year ago, these would be my exact sentiments.
bestplayer, you are exactly right and I know I am still being a NG, and although I am strugling to ignore that right now and focus on what is 'right', I strangly still feel bad for her. I know that the feeling would not be mutual if the tables were turned, so wtf?
whatever, 'feeling bad' for her is an easy one to get over, the kids are the primary concern in this whole mess. my/our 'happiness' will come in time regardless, but their immediate wellfare depends upon some very crucial decisions in the upcomming days.
sisters, very insightful, I am weighing the odds very carefully at this point. If you do get the chance to read p3 you will get a pretty good idea of where I stand. I have contemplated deeply on 'saving the marriage' for the very reason that I would be giving up 50% of my 'say', but honestly I think that I could be a much better father to them 50% of the time, then if my life were consumed with 'making my marriage work' 100% of the time. At this point I think divorce is the lesser of two evils. I also agree whole heartedly with you on the 'splitting' issue. Ive mentioned this before, but my situation is strikingly similar to what a good friend of hers did 4 years ago, and the W ended up brainwashing kids into thinking their father was evil. Personally I would never say 'bad' things to them about their mother. I agree with lots of love and reassurance, and letting them figure it out when they are ready.
Quote:
All you need to say is that h&w sometimes have problems they cannot work out and that leads to divorce. When people get divorced, they may have new bfs or gfs. If they want to know what the "problems" are, you need to let them know these are adult problems that children cannot solve
This is basically where we stand right now with them, (without D or bfs yet). Diplomacy is realy important right now; if I try to 'kick her out completely' she would soon realize that the kids are her biggest bargaining chip, and a this point I have no idea how far she would be willing to go. Thanks for the feedback everyone, it realy helps.
I haven't read everything on p3 yet but I'm seeing some very misleading and damaging advice/ideas here.
You cannot control what she does with the kids, period. If you get divorced and she has 50/50 custody, what they do when with her is up to her. Absent some true negligence or physical endangerment, the court will NOT care about anything she does. The court does NOT judge morality.
Think long and hard about this. You get divorced, you lose the ability to control what she does with them--completely.
2nd, everything you say to them about their mother's affair is "splitting" them--that means, it will leave them feeling they need to "choose sides," and that is what damages kids in divorce. Read the research. You should say nothing judgmental about her relationship with the OM. Refer all questions about it back to her. Your actions now, by NOT splitting them, will demonstrate to them, down the road, that YOU are the better person. If they see her affair, and then see how you used it to sway them against their mother (and that's what it is, b/c it cannot be justified as "the truth" since it is a partial truth, that does not focus on the breakdown of the marriage and your mutual roles in it) they may well end up forgiving their mother and angry at you. Bitterness in the name of honesty is very hurtful to your children. Please, take heed. Most people do not understand this. They think, why should I "protect" my cheating spouse from the consequences of her actions? You are not: you are protecting the kids from those consequences until they are old enough to figure it out on their own and make their own judgments. Your actions--forgiving her and taking her back, or getting divorced--will tell the kids a lot about you--and either choice will show them you are a good, multi-faceted person who acted in their best interest.
All you need to say is that h&w sometimes have problems they cannot work out and that leads to divorce. When people get divorced, they may have new bfs or gfs. If they want to know what the "problems" are, you need to let them know these are adult problems that children cannot solve (because that's why they want to know, so they can offer solutions, sweet kids!) and you are o.k. with the divorce. You love them and NOTHING they did caused the problems in the marriage; you will always be their dad and part of their life; and they will be safe and secure. These last three things should be repeated in various ways over and over again. They will need lots of reassurance. Your anger and bitterness--and desire for revenge, which is why you want the kids to know it is "her" fault--will only hurt them.
I've done a lot of research on this issue and you will find I am right. The advice to tell them anything about what mommy did is dead wrong and hurts the kids. Any attempt you make to justify doing so will simply be rationalizing a reason to pursue your real goal: getting the kids to blame mommy. That is so bad for them. They'll figure it out when they are older--that she cheated--and be more able to handle it. Don't force on them something that should NOT come from you and that they are NOT ready to handle.
great advice sisters359 ,
except I couldn't understand when u said " and that's what it is, b/c it cannot be justified as "the truth" since it is a partial truth, that does not focus on the breakdown of the marriage and your mutual roles in it
breakdown of OP's marriage was only because his wife has done something disasterous where do u see the mutual role of OP in this ? I think in this case OP's only role was that he trusted his wife.
sisters, I've done a lot of research on it too, and I can tell you that if you don't tell your children that cheating is wrong and 'it's wrong for mommy to have a boyfriend when she's married to me,' THEY will go on to either cheat or be cheated on. You show them you are the good person by not accepting cheating. They can be told it's wrong and still be shown that you love their mommy. And they will learn that, if anything happens to the family, it was because mommy cheated, not because there were 'problems.'
Plus, if it does come to pass that she leaves you for OM, the children knowing he helped break up their family will keep him from becoming entrenched in their lives, which only reinforces a warped sense of morality for them growing up.
Children learn the truth. They accept the truth. It's when we lie to them that they grow insecure and make things worse.
I think what sisters was saying here is that affairs usually happen as the result of a serious fault in the marriage, (which then would be the 'truth'). In my case I'll admit my faults and argue that this was no more than a 'grass is greener' situation, and I bet if you caught my W on an 'honest' moment, she would say the same, she was just curious.
Anyway, as a follow up to my last post:
In regards to my Ws friends situation let me clarify that the father was NO deadbeat dad. He would do anything for his kids, and although the courts granted 50/50 custody, there was nothing he could do to be with them on the weekends after she had her way with them all week. They were literally brainwashed. So although I whole heartedly agree with you sisters on the "splitting" issue, how do I protect myself from this?
turnera, I see the wisdom here too, I just think it is all a matter of timing. I think kids can only digest so much at any given time, and the actual morality of the situation is one that has to be introduced gradually, but firmly.
Last edited by hyndsight1; 02-07-2010 at 01:51 PM.
Now that's funny. sorry, this is a serious issue but the comment really cuts to the heart of the matter in such a great way.
Thanks
__________________
I do a lot of commenting here and love helping, but much of my best work and most coherent overview of how married men can have the best sex and relationship with their wife is done on my blog at http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/
sisters359 I could not disagree with you more. It is not his job to judge her or try to make the kids pick sides--but it is DEFINITELY a father's job to teach morality to his children, and by telling them "sometimes h&w just can't work it out" effectively teaches children that it is okay to do immoral actions that disregard your marriage vows. It also teaches children that if a h&w run into a situation where one behaves immortally that it is okay to just leave rather than address the problem.
Nope I highly disagree!
Children need to know that dad loves mom and is dedicated to her and only her, and will not leave her, but what she did is not what mom's and dad's do. They need to be taught that they should stand by their vows even when it's hard. They need to be taught that even when it's scary or hurts you tell the truth to people you love (you don't lie and then try to leave). They need to be taught that it is okay to do the wrong thing, admit is was wrong, and be forgiven.
Right now it is being demonstrated to them that mom's and dad's have boyfriends and girlfriends--that if you like the boyfriend more you leave dad "to be happy"--that if dad is hurt by that he's the bad guy--that if mom has a boyfriend she can lie about it. No these are all VERY WRONG MESSAGES. Further, they are children and will not have the courage to come talk to their dad about things that are scaring them--things are CLEARLY wrong in the household between their parents and no one is talking to them!
Thus, I strong believe that hynd would be wise to speak to his children--not to attack his wife or her decisions but to speak the truth in love. Speak to them at their level and focus on answering their questions, honestly and not covering it up. By saying "sometimes h&w can't work it out" that just leaves children confused and with no moral compass.
Please note that I am not encouraging that he stir bitterness or address his adult emotions with children. That WOULD be harmful to them. Nope! I'm saying "Mom had a boyfriend. As you know, when people marry they are supposed to love each other. Since she had a boyfriend, it hurt me a lot and that's the trouble we're having. Now, I married your mom and I love her and intend to honor my promise to her, but this is a hard thing and I'm not sure how it will work out." Telling the truth is never a bad thing, and here it is -- the truth is that she had an affair, got pregnant, hurt her husband and hurt her children. Further, she could have a chance at fixing it all and returning to her "charmed life" if she admitted she was wrong and spoke the truth to her children and asked forgiveness of her husband and tried to work on herself. Instead she's too proud to admit her mistake and the cost is going to be her charmed life, her family and everything valuable to her.
Saying "sometimes h&w can't work it out" does not aim toward the goal of giving every possibility to save the marriage....telling the truth in love does.
__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare
I think what sisters was saying here is that affairs usually happen as the result of a serious fault in the marriage, (which then would be the 'truth'). In my case I'll admit my faults and argue that this was no more than a 'grass is greener' situation, and I bet if you caught my W on an 'honest' moment, she would say the same, she was just curious.
Okay as I hold others to this standard, it's the same standard I hold myself to. As you may or may not know hynd, I had an emotional affair. I sort of (possibly) understand your wife's point of view in that it's not so much that you think to yourself "Oh hey--I think I'll have an affair today." It's that there are increasing Love Extinguishers at home (like angry words, being disrespected, being closed down/shut out, etc.) and decreasing Love Kindlers (like doing fun things together, sitting and talking deeply, being romantic, silly love notes, etc.). At the exact same time, some person at work, school or online comes along and is interested ...and a little interesting. The new person gradually does more and more kindlers and since you don't live with them, they don't ever do any extinguishers and there is this fantasy that "s/he REALLY knows me and accepts me--they are my perfect match." Pretty much every affair is that way: a combo of Extinguishers at home, Kindlers by the new person, and unrealistic fantasy. And think about it--if someone who knows all about it like me can slip and be imperfect, how much moreso someone who has never even heard of love kindlers and all that?
You said yourself you work 50 hours a week. This in an of itself is not a "fault" but one of those things that makes the marriage (and your wife) vulnerable. Then I bet there were a few times of arguing, saying a hurtful thing here or there, maybe fewer compliments...that kind of thing. Those are not the loyal spouse being "at fault" for the affair but rather the situations that make the disloyal one vulnerable (and the loyal one too, to be honest).
Quote:
In regards to my Ws friends situation let me clarify that the father was NO deadbeat dad. He would do anything for his kids, and although the courts granted 50/50 custody, there was nothing he could do to be with them on the weekends after she had her way with them all week. They were literally brainwashed. So although I whole heartedly agree with you sisters on the "splitting" issue, how do I protect myself from this?
Hynd honestly this is easy. The kids had no one telling them that affairs are wrong, or that H&W stay together when the going gets tough, or that you tell the truth when it's hard to admit it. Do you think it's easy for someone like me to admit that even *I* fell into an emotional affair? HECK NO! I'm ashamed! But my kids know their dad wasn't the issue and that sometimes you can do something really wrong, admit you were wrong, and be forgiven! In the case of the "non-deadbeat-dad" did he tell his kids that sometimes h&w couldn't work it out? Cuz I'll bet you $1million that while he was telling his kids something like that, his kids were getting the message that it's okay to leave your obligations for "happiness", that it's okay to lie to people you love, that it was not okay for him to want to protect his family from her actions, that he was wrong for wanting to stop her from "being happy" and messages like that--either out loud or by actions. See, kids do learn by our words but they also learn a LOT by our ACTIONS!
This is why no matter what I encourage you to do the right thing. Be honest but loving. Be open to your kids and demonstrate commitment. Behave in a way that is fair. And do all this whether she does or not!
__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare
the truth is that she had an affair, got pregnant, hurt her husband and hurt her children. Further, she could have a chance at fixing it all and returning to her "charmed life" if she admitted she was wrong and spoke the truth to her children and asked forgiveness of her husband and tried to work on herself. Instead she's too proud to admit her mistake and the cost is going to be her charmed life, her family and everything valuable to her
couldn't have said it better myself..........
Quote:
such a dumbass.
(still chuckling to myself)
OK, play nice guys! seems like some strong oppinions around here, and I value them all highly. What it boils down to in the immediate future is what she decides to do. I wish I could tell you which way she was leaning, but I have no idea myself. She hasn't asked for the kids overnight again, so I think I made my point there. I won't push the issue untill I am more legaly prepared, and I would guess the 'lull' from her reflects the same........
By the way, hynd, I get what you're saying about it being 99% no way and 1% maaaaaaaybe... and wondering if that 1% is worth it. Can I give a thought on that?
I'm not saying it would be an easy row to hoe, but I could see that 1% maybe being worth the effort, and here's why. If things really are over between your wife and OM, then she's likely to be hurting pretty much right now, missing him, feeling lonely, and withdrawing from the affair drug feeling. Once she is through some more withdrawal though, her wits will start to come back to her and she may be more like her old self (your wife) and less like the affair woman. Thus, your moves now should be like protecting you and the kids from harm but not necessarily aggressive. Know what I mean? You absolutely can not stop her from making any choice she makes--she is completely free to do so. But she is also free to experience the consequence of her choice. Further it is loving to allow her to experience the consequences because hopefully she'll learn faster! But for now, be more like "Mr. Defender" and give her a chance to go through withdrawal and get out of the "Disloyal Dizziness."
Once that happens, there may be some part of her that thinks "What in the WORLD have I done?" That would be your chance to be a real hero to her and to your children. If up to that point you've just protected yourself and the kids, you can say, "The life we had is still here. You made some mistakes but I did too. I meant it when I made my vows to you, and I'm not gonna say it would be easy, but I'm willing to do everything I can to repair this. Are you?"
Yes, I realize that in this world often people are too proud to admit they made a mistake. Yes I realize that usually/often people would rather destroy their family then humbly say they were wrong. But...if she can get there and you can get to saying "this will be hard but I will work on it" (and mean it...for real), then that 1% just grew.
So it may look sort of bleak right now, but that's why I use a lighthouse as a symbol. Sometimes the loyal spouse has to light the way back to the marriage while the disloyal one is out there in a bad storm.
__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare
LOL I know! Is it just me or do turnera and I seem to agree on most things? LOL
It's the background in psychology, I suppose. It IS a science, though some would dispute it. There really ARE causes and effects, and expected results. Human nature is human nature.
Believe me, I have played that out soooooo many times in my head, and I always end up with 2 problems: 1) I have not seen ONE honest tear from her to date. 2) We were both virgins when we met! I realize that it is perfeclty acceptable to have multiple partners in a lifetime, and even I personally would have no quams living in that world after divorce, but can you imagine how that would change our relationship? I can. (btw, our sex life was GREAT!)
Not just screwing someone on the side, but unprotected? And then comming home and without missing a beat jumping in the sack with me? she not only put both our LIVES in danger, but oppened up the possibility that our kids could have NO parents! and now she is going to have an abortion to save her marriage! Yea, Id'e consider that pretty bleak...........
Re: foresight
