So my own defenses kicked in, and here I sit happily behind my wall right now.
and you know how frustrating that can be, with us sitting on this side of the wall, being all good and everything. we're saying "hey, i'm cool, you're cool, just come on out here. i wanna play."
it's kinda how i feel every night, sitting there on the loves seat, beth is within arms reach, but she's still not settling into my arms like she used to do. i can't/won't hurt her, but there's only one way she'll find that out.
pleasant details: beth is finding ways to be around lately...bringing dinner over a couple of nights ago...having my boy call to bring a blanket over, etc. kinda nice i think.
That sound very nice voi, and I am sorry we put up those deffenses. I know your frustration.
All I can tell you is to keep reminding Beth that you NEVER want to hurt her ever again. Eventually she will start believing it, and it is nice to hear. Remind her that you want her to be totally honest with you, even if she thinks it will hurt your feelings. Let her know that you are a big boy and can handle them now.
I did have the guts to tell Dan about how he is much like my step mother..this hurt him immensly, but I felt great for revealing that to him. He understood and actually explained to me how it made me feel, and exactly what he did to make it that way.
Just what do you think is the one way she will find out you can't/won't hurt her? Im curious as to what your thinkng is on this.
Just what do you think is the one way she will find out you can't/won't hurt her? Im curious as to what your thinkng is on this.
y'know sprite, i brought that up once. i think if she would allow herself to be put in a situation that reminded her of i time when she was hurt, and it didn't repeat itself.
like...one time when we were in the bahamas, we had a really bad one way blowout. i acted like a f-ing jerk. now she doesn't ever want to go back there. same thing in vegas one time. i invited her to go weith me last summer...she said "if you'll remember, i didn't have such a great time the last time we went there." and she declined my invitation.
if she would return to the "scene of the crime" and have a good time, like we've done so many times before...i don't know, maybe the safe feeling would come back. as i look back, i was such a stupid jerk...i get it...god what a fool, momentarily, but i know it sucked for her.
Drac is right. I think you neeed to discuss some of these things with her. She may not want to discuss it, but the more you own up to how you messed things up in the past, the eaiser it will be for her to see that you truelly are sorry and don't EVER plan on doing that again. Dan has had such a clear vision of things, just like you are having. He is actually remembering things he used to say and specific instances of when he treated me badly. He didn't really remember anything, he mentally blocked it out for some reason. But, now that HE is remembering, I KNOW he understands what he did to me and his boys. Up until these past couple weeks he was depending on ME telling him the things he did wrong, but now that HE remembers them, it makes me feel much MUCH better because I KNOW it isn't just me being a nag. He cries at some of the things he did when he remembers them...especially when he threatened me with never seeing my kids again..that killed him..he can't believe he ever did that. When he can cry about those things, and actually admit he did those things, it does more for me, it does more for US. We are still trying to get used to the new him, and there are moments when he says something or gives a certain look that will take us back in time. It isnt just happening to me(I thought it was), but it happens to my kids too. We were playing an awesomely fun game of monopoly the other night(something we used to have to BEG for....and he still never played with us) and my oldest son piped up and said "oh Dad...I forgot to talk to my teacher again today, I am so sorry"..and he kind of cowarded away from Dad after he said it. Dan was so put off by this that he wanted to cry..but he knew that his reactions in the past taught my son that he should be scared of Dad. He simply told my son "I am so sorry I ever made you afraid of me...its ok you didnt talk to your teacher, you can talk to her next week". This insident made my son feel so much better because he then realized that he put his Dad in a situation where he would have gone off the handle before...but he didn't this time. My son smiled and I know he thinks everything will be ok as far as him and Dad.
So, when ever you find yourself in that situation where they think you are going to act a certain way because of how you USED to handle things, you have to own up to it, apologize, let them know you understand that it is your fault and that you understand you did this to them. That goes a long way in our healing process.
What you need to do is NOT go back to those places...find new ones. I honestly thought you were thinking of intimate contact at first, that's why I asked. I was ready to go off the handle on you about that one, but you have shown me you are growing and that you are really honestly and truelly "getting it". You can go back to the scene of the crime, but it has to be a new scene. Make new memories, don't try to fix past ones. Trying to fix past ones and returning to past places starts us out on the negative right away before we even get there. Not a good start for you when you are trying to prove anything to her. Is there some place that she has always wanted to go to, but never could? Now might not be the time to take her there tho..save that one for when you 2 are on the same page again, it will mean so much more to both of you. Is there something that she has been wanting to try or do that you didn't support her on? Is there something you 2 used to do that you havent since you got married? What about a concert she may be wanting to go to? Any little thing, most of the things we feel we missed out on in the past are little things that don't add up to much until you put them all together.
Going off the knowledge of MY relationship, you have to find a way to allow her to open up to you and be able to discuss things openly. You won't truely understand what those things she feels she missed out on are, until she can do that with you. So for the time being, you are just going to have to pay attention to what she says or what she has said in the past that you didnt pick up on. Pick up on it now....this shows her that even tho you seemed like you were not listening to her, you really were, but in your own back of the mind kind of way.
Have you discussed Valentines Day with her? I know this sounds odd that you should have to discuss it, but you don't want to do something that YOU want to do, because it might not be what SHE wants. My husband was scared about Vday coming up, and wanted to plan a nice romantic dinner with just the 2 of us, BUT, he didn't want to pressure me into anything, so he ASKED what WE are going to do. I told him that I am not in the frame of mind to do a typical romantic Vday thing, so we decided to just take the boys out to a nice dinner with us. He completely understood that last week wehn we talked about it, but by last night he forgot. Its not that he forgot really, he was hoping for more...but when he asked me(and this was so sweet cuz it was like he was asking me out on a date) if I would go to dinner with him, I had to remind him of our talk last week and what WE had already decided to do. He then informed me(in a dog with his tail tucked between his legs kind of look) that he was going to have to take that pink teddy back that he bought me....lmao..he was joking, but it made it easier to deal with. Instead of him getting upset that he didn't get his way, he joked about it, but is ok with it. See, we are both growing in the same direction for once. He has shown me that I CAN open up and talk to him and tell him like it is without him getting upset or sideways. In the past I would have just taken it as....he forgot, or he doesnt want his boys around...but THIS time, I was able to remind him, and he DIDNT get sideways, it felt GREAT!!!!
One of the major things we discussed this past week was how I have been so overwhelmed with all these decisions he is "allowing" me to make on my own. I told him exactly how i feel and that if I make the wrong choice, I don't want it to be all my fault. So, he took that as his que to tell me what he thougth about everything without telling me what to do about it. By discussing it together, we found we are both on the same page. He gave me his thoughts, and I gave him mine, and we both came to the same conclusion. That is that us moving out of state will benefit everyone. We put every twist on it that we could. We left the boys out of the mix and discussed what it would do for or to US..then we left US out of the equation and discussed what it would do for the boys. It came down to being a win win situation. I had no idea he felt about this house we are in now, the same way I do....too many bad memories. I look around this house and see things that were supposed to get done, or things that were a battle but I still had to settle for whatever it was that he felt was good enough.(i have a few examples but i wont put them here...too long to explain)
It will take Beth a long time to be able to open up with you and be as blunt and to the point as you may need her to be to get her point across....but there is hope that it can get there. It is just going to take time on her part, and she needs to be able to feel enough trust in you to be able to do that. Take baby steps. Have you opened up a topic of conversation to her that you KNOW you will have different view points? Did you let her voice her opinion without condemning her? Did you agree with her on at least one of her points of view? Trust me, this goes a LONG way in us finding a little bit of self esteem we have been missing. It helps us to become stronger and realize that we arent as "stupid" as we have felt in the past. I know she is not stupid and neither am I, its just a general term I used!
You have to be honest with her and tell her exactly how you feel. We are not mind readers either, and we need to be told what you think and feel. You will learn a LOT about each other in this process. Do you apologize to her on a regular basis? If we hear it enough times, we will begin to believe it. Dan does that a LOT. He will see my facial expression change and at that moment he KNOWS I went back to the past....he immediately apologizes for being like that in the past and assures me he does not have the same intentions this time, and tells me he doesnt mean it the same way he used to. He will then explain to me exactly what it is that he meant. He is not real good at relaying his thoughts into words, so it takes him some time to get to his exact point, but when he can do taht, it shows me that he does understand, and he will NEVER take me back to that place ever again.
I am sorry, my thoughts seem to keep jumping around this morning, so to summarize.....you need to find a way to
1) get her to open up by openeing topics of conversation that will allow her to have a different view point than your own...allow her to express them without telling her she is wrong or without pushing YOUR view points on her...this goes BIG for self worth/esteem
2) apologize immediately when you see her go back in time..it may take you a day or 2 to notice that this happened, but dont hesitate to apologize the moment you notice it....if this doesnt happen, apologize anyways...before you say good night for the day...apologize for the way you treated her in the past, and assure her you will NEVER do that to her EVER again....it assures us that you understand when we can hear you say it outloud
3) be totally honest with her in your feelings. Now is not the time to hide anything....even though you may think she doesnt want to hear it...tell her anyways, but don't expect a response
4) find an interest that SHE has and make it a better experience for her...don't take her to the past, find something new or something she already has that you can build on to make it easier or more comfortable/fun for her to do. You say she likes scrapbooking....is there a tool or piece of equipment that will make it easier or put some new fun into it?(i used to scrapbook so if you need some ideas here, just ask) maybe this would be as simple as YOU sitting down with her and let her teach you a little about it, ask her if you can do a page...or start your own book with her. If we can teach you something we know, it too goes along way in the self worth/esteem department
Good luck....oh..and one more thing...STOP OVER ANALYZING....I think this is one of the biggest issues you guys have. Allow her to have a "bad day" and just leave it at that...don't try to figure out why or what you did...chances are its nothing, just let it pass, but be there for her.
Have you discussed your feelings and your self discovery with her at all?
draconis
yeah, drac, about something off the wall tonight. you'd have laughed. i wore some older work clothes to work tonight. something i haven't worn for like eight years the pants fit very well, but a little tight on the waist. remember i have lost over 100 pounds. now understand, i wasn't always a lard ass through that fat period. i've been blessed/cursed with a frame that carries weight well. anyway, i was telling beth about the funny thing that happened to get me to try on these skinny clothes and i said "and my shoes size is even smaller. beth said "because your feet were fat. i said yeah, but why didn't you tell me about that back then. she went on about how my feelings would have been hurt if she'd have said something like that.
so i said "you probably could have told me, you know, communicated that."
she said, "would you have listened?"
"no," i said. "probably not. because i wasn't much of a listener back then."
and off we went. the best conversation that we've had forever! got done talking about a half hour ago. talked right up to the front door, so much like the old days of dating. tonight was a good night. for that.
also, bought her a vermont teddy bear for valentines day. had it delivered to her work. i didn't make a big production out of asking her if she liked it. but she did. tomorrow, good day, kids, wife, movie...
yeah, drac, about something off the wall tonight. you'd have laughed. i wore some older work clothes to work tonight. something i haven't worn for like eight years the pants fit very well, but a little tight on the waist. remember i have lost over 100 pounds. now understand, i wasn't always a lard ass through that fat period. i've been blessed/cursed with a frame that carries weight well. anyway, i was telling beth about the funny thing that happened to get me to try on these skinny clothes and i said "and my shoes size is even smaller. beth said "because your feet were fat. i said yeah, but why didn't you tell me about that back then. she went on about how my feelings would have been hurt if she'd have said something like that.
so i said "you probably could have told me, you know, communicated that."
she said, "would you have listened?"
"no," i said. "probably not. because i wasn't much of a listener back then."
and off we went. the best conversation that we've had forever! got done talking about a half hour ago. talked right up to the front door, so much like the old days of dating. tonight was a good night. for that.
also, bought her a vermont teddy bear for valentines day. had it delivered to her work. i didn't make a big production out of asking her if she liked it. but she did. tomorrow, good day, kids, wife, movie...
Brother,
It sounds like you are on the right track but my advice is be careful. My wife will send me a text or say or do something that reminds me of old wife and the next minute I think I am in the room with the wicked witch of the west. I swear its like a light switch. Either way for me, have fun and have a good day I would just keep a bit of a guard up....
Brother,
It sounds like you are on the right track but my advice is be careful. My wife will send me a text or say or do something that reminds me of old wife and the next minute I think I am in the room with the wicked witch of the west. I swear its like a light switch. Either way for me, have fun and have a good day I would just keep a bit of a guard up....
sportsman--
i hear ya, but my wife goes back and forth now between very accomodating and "leaping" at the chance to hang together and passing on the opportunity. last night she was cool. i asked if i waas getting off work too late and she didn't care at all that is was 11pm. tonight she politely begged out. that's okay. i think she has feelings in her heart that she is battling with, with this being valentines day. by the way, i got her a vermont teddy bear and a single vased red rose. she knows buddy, that's my point.
That conversation was great voi. Did she open up enough to tell you something you DIDNT know she felt? If not its ok too. But that was a great start, and as long as you are honest with her, she will be honest with you.
You are absolutely right when you say she has feelings in her heart she is battling with. But, the battle isn't just in her heart, it's in her head too. Her head and heart are battling with each other. Her heart probably wants to just let go and be with you again, but her head won't allow it.
i'm backing off posting in this thread. i tend to wear my heart on my sleeve and post what's on my mind at the time. right now, we're doing okay. beth calls me or we meet after work and talk about the day. tv some nights, a movie some nights, some nights nothing. but i think we're doing okay.
she kept the valentines vermont teddy bear i had delivered to her at work. it sits on her desk. her friends all get to see that there and i'm sure she is proud to have a gift she can display.
my co-workers (hardened car sales guys) all think i should throw down an ultimatum. i don't think that's best. one guy who i work with (not a hardened car sales guy) keeps saying things are going fine, just take it as it comes.
anyways, thanks for coming along on this journey with me.
we're both pretty intelligent people. so flirting can come from coy conversation to body language to any number of other things.
i flirt covertly almost constantly. beth seems to take it well. she gave me a comment the other day when i flipped the switch a little. she said "things thaty make you go hmmm." she was kinda saying "what are you making such a big deal of my body?" when, in fact, i was. made me realize that there's a lot of flirting going on between us. hmmm...
ADDED OTHER THOUGHTS: this time now is being so productive in communication that i'm not putting such an emphasis on being flirtatious. example...beth called last night as soon as she got off work to confide in me some things that are going on at work that she needed advice on. same thing about 30 minutes ago. she's opening up with communication. i'm glad she's asking me, showing some trust(?) i think that's good, so i'm not going full court press on the flirtiness.
That conversation was great voi. Did she open up enough to tell you something you DIDNT know she felt? If not its ok too. But that was a great start, and as long as you are honest with her, she will be honest with you.
You are absolutely right when you say she has feelings in her heart she is battling with. But, the battle isn't just in her heart, it's in her head too. Her head and heart are battling with each other. Her heart probably wants to just let go and be with you again, but her head won't allow it.
sprite--
she opened up and told me things i never figured she'd tell me. does that help?
maybe it's because i wear my heart on my sleeve...but how come she won't just listen to her heart? i know in her heart she feels it. it shows every time were together.
Re: separation is killing me, help! 
