Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST! - Page 5 - Talk About Marriage
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post #61 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-25-2016, 12:31 PM
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

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Originally Posted by howdouknow View Post
If it is a mental or personality disorder.....anyone have an idea of what??
HowDo, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., event-triggered irrational anger, inability to trust, paranoia (e.g., claiming you are delusional, fraudulent, and a liar), controlling behavior, temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) and, to a lesser extent, for NPD (Narcissistic PD). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your H has full-blown BPD or NPD but, rather, that he might exhibit moderate to strong traits of it or another PD.

I caution that BPD (and NPD) is not something that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your H exhibits BPD traits. Of course he does. We all do.

Rather, at issue is whether he exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met him, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD and NPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

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I read up on psychopathy this morning. It was dead on! It helps explain why things went bad so fast.
Perhaps you are right. Antisocial Personality Disorder (i.e., ASPD, which is what psychopathy is now called in the DSM-5) is a possibility. Yet, if your H has strong and persistent traits of ASPD, he would be a social predator who is incapable of loving you or anyone else. Do you really believe he never truly loved you? Moreover, having strong ASPD traits would imply he essentially has a stable personality. Do you believe that? So far, you seem to be describing the opposite: a man who loved you during the courtship period and who is emotionally unstable.

Significantly, ASPD is not required to "explain why things went bad so fast." This rapid deterioration of the marriage also occurs with BPDers. Unlike ASPDers, the BPDers are unstable and are capable of loving you very intensely (albeit in the very immature way that a young child is able to love).

Throughout the courtship/honeymoon period, a BPDer will idealize you. He will be convinced you are the nearly perfect woman who has come to save him from unhappiness. In this way, his infatuation over you will hold his two fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at bay. That infatuation typically lasts 4 to 6 months but may last much longer if you are not dating too frequently. Once it starts to evaporate, his two great fears will return and you will start triggering them.

Indeed, it is impossible to avoid triggering those fears if your H is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent BPD traits). The reason you cannot avoid them is that the two fears lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum. Hence, as you draw close to assure him of your love and devotion, you inevitably will start suffocating him -- making him feel controlled and engulfed by your strong personality. Yet, as soon as you back away to give him breathing room, you will start triggering his abandonment fear.

I caution that, even if your H is a BPDer, this does not rule out him also exhibiting strong traits of NPD or ASPD. These PDs represent different patterns of behavior, not separate diseases. Consequently, the vast majority of people exhibiting strong traits of one PD also exhibit strong traits of one or two other PDs as well. A recent study found that 47% of males having full-blown BPD also suffer from full-blown NPD -- and 19% of those BPDer males also suffer from ASPD. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

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He says I lie because I allow my kids to listen to country music when he is not around but will turn it off when he is in the car or the house. I have never agreed to not let them listen to country music.
If your H exhibits strong ASPD behavior as you suspect, this claim about you "lying" almost certainly is pure manipulation and is a false claim that he does not really believe. On the other hand, if he is a BPDer, he likely truly believed the claim at the moment he was making it. Like young children, BPDers are too immature to intellectually challenge their own intense feelings.

Like a child, they are convinced that any feeling that intense MUST be true. BPDers thus perceive of intense feelings as self-evident "facts." And a week or two later -- when the BPDer's feelings have dramatically changed -- he will be just as convinced that the opposite conclusion is true too. This is why it usually is impossible to rationally reason with a BPDer when he is emotionally upset.

Quote:
Then came up with some crazy stuff...saying I am fraudulent, delusional, a liar, an enabler....and on and on. He was talking in this strange mocking voice and cussing and swearing (which I have VERY rarely heard him do).
As I noted above, you likely are seeing ASPD traits (or NPD traits) if your H does not really believe these claims -- but you likely are seeing BPD traits if he truly believes them at the moment he is saying them.

Quote:
I thought he was a really good man. I thought he was the type who honored marriage and held it in high regards.
If he is a BPDer, you likely were correct about him being "a really good man." A BPDer's problem is not being bad but, rather, being emotionally unstable. Most BPDers are good people who are very easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both exhibited full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

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He also referred to me as his enemy tonight.
This black-white thinking is a warning sign for BPD and NPD. Granted, we all do B-W thinking to some degree whenever we experience anger or other intense feelings. BPDers and narcissists, however, rely on it heavily.

Like a young child, a BPDer is too immature to be able to handle strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, and the other gray areas of interpersonal relationships. This is why young children and BPDers are heavily reliant on all-or-nothing thinking. Specifically, they categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and, in just ten seconds, will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- based solely on a minor comment or infraction. Months or weeks later they may recategorize that person, just as quickly, back to the other polar extreme.

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He would say his kids would NEVER do something like that....!
This is another example of black-white thinking. It typically is exhibited in the frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "You NEVER..." or "You ALWAYS...."

Quote:
When I asked why he is ending our marriage he said, "I'm not ending our marriage." Explain that!!??
That's easy to explain if he is a BPDer (i.e., exhibits strong BPD traits). A BPDer has such a fragile, fragmented sense of self identity that he really does not know who he is. He therefore is attracted to a woman having a strong personality that will help to ground him and center him. Yet, as soon as you provide that to a BPDer, he will start feeling controlled and dominated (i.e., his engulfment fear).

Moreover, to the extent a BPDer has a lasting sense of self at all, it is the false self identity of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." A BPDer therefore has a powerful need to be around a strong mate who he can blame for every misfortune or mistake. As you say, "He continues to blame EVERYTHING on me."

Hence, if you really are married to a BPDer, he will perceive of you as "the Rescuer" during the courtship period. The implication, of course, is that he must be "The Victim" if you're trying to rescue him. Then, when his infatuation evaporates and his two fears return, he will start perceiving of you as "the Persecutor," i.e., the cause of every misfortune.

This is why it is common for BPDer relationships to go off a cliff right after the marriage, at which time the BPDer starts blaming every misfortune on his spouse -- even though he does not want a divorce. And this is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is titled I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!

Quote:
I don't understand. Maybe I'm not supposed to.
As I noted earlier, I cannot know whether your H is exhibiting strong traits of BPD, NPD, or ASPD. I've never met the guy. I nonetheless am confident that you can spot any strong traits that are occurring if you take a little time to learn which traits are on the list.

Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD.

Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. Toward that end, I suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your H's issues. Yet, like learning warning signs for breast cancer and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a painful situation, e.g., taking him back or running into the arms of another man just like him. Finally, if you do feel tempted to take him back, I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your kids have been dealing with. Take care, HowDo.

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post #62 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-25-2016, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

Wow. Thank you uptown. I am almost on information overload! I absolutely want your input.

I read everything you wrote and there are so many signs of BPD. And then I read the list of 18 BPD. You should know that he would mark me down as most of those things. And some I would agree with. What if I am the problem? Maybe we should analyze me first before looking at him....?


So, this is the list of 19 BPD about ME....

1. I don't think I am a black and white thinker. At least not excessively. I do it sometimes. But when I said he is blaming EVERYTHING on me....that wasn't black or white, he really is dong that! Sometimes I think I see too much gray! I am too sympathetic at times and try to cut a lot of slack to most people. lol

2. I have absolutely told him that he never encourages me and is almost always critical of me.

3. Yes, I am jealous. Irrationally so? I guess I don't know. I have outright accused him of cheating once. He was over 2.5 hours late getting home from just across town. I was super upset as I had been trying to text and call him the whole time. He dismissed it and said I am a crazy physco B**ch.

4. I absolutely do not think he has not done much lately for anyone but himself. And this preceeds him leaving. In the 3 months or so before he left, he stopped cooking, stopped cleaning, stopped interacting with the family for the most part. I told him thank you every chance I got for whatever I could find to say it for. But he minimally helped us pack and move except for his stuff. He didn't help clean the old rental at all. He was insistent we move his way which was a pickup full at a time instead of renting a moving truck. It took weeks and the majority of the work was done by the kids and I...with me working full time and him working some by selling things and helping people move.

5. I do (or did) adore him. Very rarely did I criticize him at all. Although he would claim I did a lot. If I asked him why he was doing something a certain way he felt it was criticism. If I suggested another way, he thought it was criticism.

6. He would say I create drama. My biggest complaint was lack of communication about where he was or when he would be home. He thought of that as drama, because he shouldn't have to tell me where he is or when he will be home. If my feelings got hurt I would get in trouble for reacting, therefore I create drama.

7. Yes, I do have low self esteem. I would have loved to hear more compliments from him. The most common compliment was, "You have nice tits" and "You give good BJ's". I guess thats better than nothing.

8. A couple of times. Like when he was 2.5 hours late getting home. Or the day he blatantly flirted with another woman at church and called me crazy about it. Other than that, most of the time I would just be hurt by something he said which usually resulted in me being quite for a while before getting over it.

9.Yes, I always felt like he would leave because I wan't good enough. He would often tell me all the things I was doing wrong which sucks because I am already really hard on myself about things I do wrong or could do better.

10.I try to place blame where it is due. And all too often I place it on me. Probably to an unhealthy extent.

11. Oh I can spend. But I am pretty darn careful with my money. As a single mother going to school for the past 5 years I have had to be careful. I pay all the bills on time and have been doing so my whole life. Eating...yes I eat too much. I am overweight, so I certainly have issues in that area. However, I don't binge eat, ever that I know of.

12. Perhaps. Isn't what I am doing now being the victim? Past relationships included a physically abusive man and am extreme cheater. Yes I was the victim in those. I have also had positive relationships end in which I am still friends with the other person. So IDK?

13. We had a lot of things in common, but not everything. I was very interested in what he talked about and did as a living (or claimed to do as a living). It was really fascinating to learn so much about bees and beekeeping. That was very genuine though. There wasn't anything that I faked interest in. We talked A LOT about the bible and religion. Again, a very true interest of mine. And his too as far as I know. But he would tell you I am not nearly as Christian as I claim to be. Conversely, I would say he talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk.

14. No, I didn't rely on him to ground me or keep me focused. I was already 4 years into schooling when I met him. I was focused!!! But he would probably say that I never would have made it through if it weren't for him. He seemed to think I couldn't do much of anything without him.

15. Essentially until after we were married he was very good at soothing me and calming me. He would remind me that everything will work out and not to stress if there is nothing I can do to change the outcome. It was nice. I tend to deal with some anxiety. However, I was doing just fine before him. I have handled several years on my own.

16. I don't have very many close friends locally. I moved here to go to college and I have mainly invested my time in that area. I do have some close friend in the area, I just don't spend much time with them. I have some really close, long term friends from across the state.

17. I do this a little. I am more playful when my boys are around. More serious at work or with my husband. I wouldn't say it is completely different personalities. I think it has more to do with how comfortable I am around the people I am with. I take a while to warm up.

18. I don't think I do this. Not something I could probably analyze about myself though. I try to be very honest at all times so I would be shocked if I actually do this.

As for the other thread....I really think he would claim a lot of those things against me. He truly does see me as the problem. If I am, I would sure like to know!! I am open to change and self improvement. But there are some things I am not open to. Especially after having tried them. I am not open to changing every aspect of my parenting. I have done it the way I do it with very positive results. I would be willing to make some improvements, but I don't think I would do a total overhaul. That's what he wanted. But it was making my kids into my enemies. Do you think this all could revolve around my parenting and the kids?? In the end he acted jealous of the relationship I had with them. In the end I much preferred spending time with them over him.

He is so put together on the public front. So calm. So reasonable. He appears to be the perfect husband, father, Christian, etc. It's almost mind boggling to me that there is such a different side to him. It still makes me feel crazy!
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post #63 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 07:20 AM
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

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What if I am the problem? So, this is the list of 19 BPD about ME....
Howdo, you definitely do exhibit BPD traits. As I noted earlier, we ALL do. They are basic human behaviors -- ego defenses, actually -- that we all rely heavily on during early childhood for survival. And we continue to rely on them, at a reduced level, throughout our adult lives. They become a problem -- producing dysfunctional behaviors and undermining close relationships -- only when we exhibit them at a strong and persistent level as adults.

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You should know that he would mark me down as most of those things. And some I would agree with.
If your H really is a BPDer (i.e., exhibits strong and persistent traits), he likely will truly believe that all of his painful feelings and bad thoughts are coming from YOU. This is called "projection." It occurs with BPDers because they have been carrying an enormous amount of shame and self loathing since early childhood. Hence, the last thing a BPDer wants to find is one more thing that must be added to the long list of things he hates about himself.

The result is that a BPDer's subconscious mind works 24/7 to protect his fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting nearly all of his hurtful feelings and bad thoughts onto his partner. Because this process works entirely at the subconscious level, he will consciously be convinced that YOU are the source of those hurtful feelings, mistakes, and bad thoughts.

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Do you think this all could revolve around my parenting and the kids??
In blended families, the greatest source of stress typically is the difference in parenting skills that the two spouses bring into the marriage. Yet, the temper tantrums and other anger issues you describe seem to go far beyond what would be expected from a difference in parenting skills.

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In the end he acted jealous of the relationship I had with them.
If he really does have strong BPD traits, that is to be expected. My BPDer exW, for example, was so jealous of my affection for my foster son that she grew to hate him. Because a BPDer has a great fear of abandonment, he likely has a powerful desire to have your full attention and have you to himself.

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He is so put together on the public front. So calm. So reasonable. He appears to be the perfect husband, father, Christian, etc. It's almost mind boggling to me that there is such a different side to him.
Again, if he is a BPDer, that is to be expected. The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning people who are able to interact very well with casual friends, business associates, clients, and total strangers. The reason is that NONE of those people have drawn close enough to the BPDer to pose a threat to his abandonment fear or his engulfment fear. There is no close R/S that can be abandoned and there is no intimacy that would cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment.

This is why it is common for a BPDers to excel in very demanding professions, e.g., being a college professor, medical doctor, psychologist, social worker, or salesman. And this is why it is common for a BPDer to be generous and caring all day long with total strangers -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love him.

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It still makes me feel crazy!
If you really have been living with a BPDer for nearly a year, "crazy" is exactly how you should be feeling. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths.

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning. Hence, if your H is a BPDer, it is not surprising that your very first sentence in this thread is "I am dazed and confused...."
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post #64 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 08:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

I will admit that would love to find the "magic cure" and get back the man I thought I was marrying. I keep looking for some glimmer or hope but at the same time I know better. Or I think I do. I am a little concerned that if he came back and apologized I would give him another chance. I feel weak.

I have a counseling appointment set up for this Friday. It's someone I have never seen before. Would you suggest I find an actual psychologist?

Last edited by howdouknow; 09-26-2016 at 09:22 PM.
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post #65 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 11:14 PM
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

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I have a counseling appointment set up for this Friday. It's someone I have never seen before. Would you suggest I find an actual psychologist?
Yes. Any therapist who is certified and licensed to operate in your State can perform an "official diagnosis." This includes psychiatrists (who have an M.D.), psychologists (having a PhD usually in psych), and counselors and therapists (having masters' degrees). For more detail, see Dr. Hutt's explanation of the many differences at Ph.D., M.A., MFCC or MFT.

Generally, psychiatrists tend to be better at diagnosing the more serious mental disorders like schizophrenia, bipolar, and severe depression -- because they are medical doctors who prescribe the medications used to treat those disorders. In contrast, psychologists have a PhD but not a medical degree. Psychologists therefore tend to have more experience in diagnosing and treating personality disorders such as BPD and NPD.

Hence, if you decide that you are seeing a pattern of strong warning signs for BPD or NPD, I would suggest you start with a psychologist. As I noted, they typically excel with diagnosing such disorders. Moreover, because they lack a MD degree, they usually charge half what a psychiatrist will charge for office visits.

As is true for the professionals in any field, skill sets vary greatly among therapists. Generally, if you are seeing strong traits of a personality disorder like BPD, you will get better advice from someone having a PhD in psychology (i.e., a psychologist or psychiatrist) than someone having only a masters degree. Moreover, it is desirable that you see someone who has many years of clinical experience in treating people suffering from a PD. If your community is large enough to offer a number of psychologists or psychiatrists from which to choose, it would be prudent to do a little research to find out which one is most experienced -- by calling a trusted doctor or reading about them online.

That said, I would not rule out seeing a therapist having only an M.S. degree if you determine that he/she has lots of experience in this area and is highly regarded by other therapists. After a therapist has had 10 or 15 years of experience treating PD sufferers, he may be more knowledgeable than a psychologist having more formal education. Absent such evidence, however, it is difficult to determine that such a therapist would be as qualified as someone having a PhD degree. Kelly Grant (columnist for Smart Money and The Wall Street Journal) cautions:

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Couples looking to stave off a split may want to choose their expert help with care. Training and experience levels among purveyors of marriage advice run the gamut from never-took-Psych-101 to spent-more-time-in-school-than-your-doctor.... Therapists are required by states to get at least a master's degree in the discipline and a passing score on a national licensing exam.... But pretty much anyone can hang out a shingle as a marriage coach, relationship adviser or other uniquely labeled provider of "alternative marriage counseling" -- they just can't call the services "therapy." License or no, experts say the risk for consumers is that it's so easy to pick a provider who doesn't have the education or skills to solve their problems. See Ten Things Your Marriage Counselor Won't Say.
Similarly, Dr. Jim Hunt, a psychologist, states:

Quote:
There could easily be three to four hundred thousand therapists in the United States. Some are licensed, some are not; some have Ph.Ds, some do not; some have Master’s degrees, some do not; some are RNs most are not; some are psychiatrists, some are psychologists, some have an Ed.D., and some are MFCC’s, (or MFT’s, as they are so designated in some states). See M.D., Ph.D., M.A., MFCC or MFT, etc… Who are these people?.
Finally, I note that, if you suspect your H has strong BPD traits, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion on what you're dealing with is to see YOUR OWN psychologist, i.e., one who has not seen or treated your H. That way you are ensured that the psych is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not those of your H.

Remember, a psychologist treating your H is not your friend. He is ethically bound to protect his best interests. I mention this because therapists and psychologists generally are loath to tell a BPDer client -- much less tell his W -- the name of his true diagnosis. There are several reasons why this information is commonly withheld. I discuss those reasons in my post, Loath to Diagnose.

Hence, whenever BPD red flags seem to be involved, it would be as foolish to seek candid advice from your H's psychologist during the marriage as it would be to seek candid advice from his attorney during the divorce. It is important to see a professional who is ethically bound to protect your best interests.
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post #66 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 11:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

I don't think there is a chance in the world I can get him into a counselor of any type. I have asked and begged and he wouldn't even speak to someone at church with me about the challenges we were facing.

He does not like counselors or anyone like them. He claims to receive all help and answers from the Bible. I am not knocking the Bible...I love the Bible....but I don't think seeking additional help is a bad thing either. He seems to think it is.
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post #67 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 11:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

So I guess I will go down the list of 18 for him. Maybe it will help solidify a few things for me.

1. He will claim otherwise as we have had the conversation about how kids think in black and white. It doesn't seem like he does this except to me and my kids. Or if he does, he doesn't express it to me.

2. Yes....this popped up really bad around May I would say. And hasn't let up since. Example: I asked him to not talk to one woman at church because I felt like he was flirting with her. Several times since he has said that I won't let him talk to anyone at church. Another example, we have had good road trips and bad road trips, I would say more good than bad, however he says EVERY time we go anywhere together I am mad and unpleasant. It's not the truth. He says my kids ALWAYS lie....he says that about me too at this point. The list is quite long in this area.

3. On the surface no. He is especially not jealous of other men that I can tell. I've never given him a reason to be either. Well, he was upset that I have one good male friend I talk to, although he never asked me not to. However it seems he was jealous of my kids. That continued to get worse until he left. It was extremely bad the 2 weeks before he left. Oh...and he said he didn't want to go to my uncles house again because he 'feels uncomfortable' there. My uncle and his family are my only relatives in the area.

4. He had absolutely no appreciation for the time I was putting into schooling. Which I was doing for my family....to make a better life for all of us. He occasionally would say thank you when I cooked, but most often he wouldn't eat if I cooked (and I am a pretty good cook!). He essentially called me selfish for going to school and then later for working because I didn't focus enough on my kids. My kids are my life! I only work because I have to! I would LOVE to stay home and spend more time with my kids!

5. Eh....it was more like he absolutely adored me in the beginning, but absolutely hated me in the end. There was very little adoration in the last couple of months.

6. YES! But he would say I caused the drama and be upset with me that I was upset about nothing or making a big deal out of something so trivial.

7. He never showed low self esteem. However he wouldn't look for a job and I wonder if that is because he didn't think he could get one or hold one down. His dad said for years he avoided getting a job because he didn't think he could. I guess I don't know for sure.

8. Not a hint of it in the beginning. At least not that I recognized. But in the end it was BAD.

9. He absolutely did not like plans getting changed. Things were better when we had more time together. He did not like it when there were school activities for the kids....or really anything that took my time in which I spent with the kids. Other than that he hasn't outwardly complained about not spending time with me. Many times I didn't know what he was upset about..it could have been anything.

10. YES! I don't recall him ever taking responsibility for his circumstances. And I believed it. It was his ex wife's fault he rarely saw his kids. It was her lawyers fault that he was fired from his job or couldn't find a new one. It was the kids fault he made a mess of our whole back yard. The list is long....

11. I'm not sure about this one. He rarely had any money to spend unless I gave him some. But when he even had a little money, it would get spent very quickly. Example....while I was a single mom going to school we were receiving foodstamps. He wasn't working when we got married so we were still on foodstamps (sidenote: I am welfare free now!!! woohoo!!!) . Memorial Day weekend the boys and I went camping (he refused to go), my oldest son paid for most of the food because my budget was super super tight. Well we came home late Sunday night due to rain. My H had bought himself a $24 T-bone steak. Twenty four dollar for one piece of meat for one person! That is not in our budget! I thought it was very selfish move. But I kept my mouth shut.

12. Abusive no. But his ex wife rarely had sex with him. One ex gf ended up being gay. Another lied about being married and doing drugs....etc. His old jobs didn't treat him fairly....his lawyer screwed him over.... etc. Yes, he claimed I treated him good. His favorite line before we got married was, "You treat me good and you are good for me." I didn't see anything negative about that at the time. He seemed to appreciate me.

13. We had many things in common. I guess I don't know what is true or what was a lie now. The man I thought I knew was a very good match. Our parenting styles seemed very similar, but in the long run they weren't. We had similar thoughts about budgets, roles of husbands and wives, spirituality, dreams for the future....I was honest about everything I said. I don't know if he was faking it all or what.

14. I would not say he relied on me at all for much of anything besides financial support. However he seemed to have a lot of difficulty completing anything. I didn't realize the severity of it until after we were married. There were always excuses for the unfinished projects or why he jumped to something else. Looking back I can see that trend since I met him.

15. Again, he didn't rely on me for much of anything. Even at times when it would have been proper and appropriate to rely on me...he was more of a lone wolf.

16. I don't know of any close friends he has. He isn't close to his brothers, sisters, father, mother, or anyone that I know of. But he is very charismatic and can talk to anyone! There are a few people he talked to on an every couple month basis, but it is casual friendship from what I can tell. Nothing in depth or super personal at all.

17. I would say it plays out as very charismatic and outgoing in the social settings, but withdrawn and quiet at home. I haven't experienced him in very many different settings. He is usually very nice and polite to waiters and waitresses but will be giving me the silent treatment the whole time we are out.

18. I would say this is accurate of him. If it is not the complete rewriting it is taking things grossly out of context, minimizing, maximizing, etc. He accused me of all sorts of things, and it seemed he truly believed what he was saying. I am not the person he said I am. I don't even have a clue where most of the accusations came from.

Last edited by howdouknow; 09-27-2016 at 12:00 AM.
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post #68 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 12:28 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

I misquoted. He would say, "You are good to me and good for me".
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post #69 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 01:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

oh my word....I just realized something I did. When we were in the friendship phase of our relationship we discussed the whole...man is the leader of the family. If it comes down to it, he should make the final decision about something. (I know that idea is very controversial) . At the time I remember saying that if I thought my spouse was following God that I would gladly let him make the decisions. However, in reality I did not do that.

Example: We had 4 weeks until our rental contract ended. I looked for a rental house online, made phone calls, etc. I looked at a couple of rentals. H didn't seem to be interested. He didn't even want to talk to me about it. So I found a house I really liked. I told him about it. He named all the reasons it wasn't a good fit for us. I continued to look for something cheaper, closer to where H wanted to live, etc. I found NOTHING. He basically kept telling me to have faith. When the owners of the house I liked said I could sign the lease I talked to H about it again. He said no. The house was closer to my job my 15 minutes...but 15 further from where H likes to sell stuff and help people move. The house is 6 bedrooms, plenty big enough for our family and for H's kids to visit and have their own space. Rent was affordable, although near the top of what I want to pay. All utilities are included except fuel for heating. Out in the country like we both wanted....it seemed perfect to me! H didn't want it. He found a very small 3 bed in town for the same price + utilities. By this time, we are 3 weeks from needing to move. I felt time was up and we needed to act. He didn't want to. He told me he didn't want to. However he finally relinquished when I told him it was a month to month contract and if we really found something better I was willing to move again. Ultimately though I think he was made that I took control. That I made the decision. And that I wouldn't listen to him. Was I a bad wife? I was really concerned we would not find something else that was suitable. We live in a place that rents out houses nine months in advance. That is not an exaggeration. There is a very high rental demand due to two large universities within 7 miles of each other. I was concerned we would end up in a very small yet expensive apartment, or literally with no place to live. I really didn't listen to him. And I certainly didn't trust him. He has lived out of his care before on a couple of occasions. I think that's what he is doing now...

Separately, but related still I think....H seems to have trouble making choices. Big or small, he seems to get paralyzed and not even respond to a question that involves a choice. At times he has said thats a God thing too. Like he is waiting on God for an answer and won't make a move in any direction until he gets an answer. I don't know...its really weird. He has literally done it at a stop sign before while trying to decide which was to turn. It wasn't crazy long....but unusually long for sure. It didn't even matter which way we turned because we were just out driving.
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post #70 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 02:47 AM
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

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Why do I let him get to me!!!? I took a load of stuff up to where he has storage unit today. I had reason to believe he wouldn't be there, so I was just going to drop it off. However, I was wrong...he was there having a "garage sale" out of the unit. And stupid me, instead of driving by, I stopped. This is the first time I have seen him since Sept 5th. I asked him to talk to me. I asked him if he wanted a divorce. He said no. I asked him why he ignored me for a week solid....he said cause he didn't want to talk to me. I asked why he won't talk about the marriage and he said he refuses to talk to me while I am extorting him with his belongings. Which I am not...I am trying to get it back to him, but he rarely responds to me so it makes arrangements rather difficult.

A little background...H had been using a truck that belongs to my oldest son. The thought was that H could probably just have the truck because son doesn't need it. However, H never put the truck into his name. When H left, he left the truck here. Son was in an accident and his daily driver is not driveable. SO 5 days after H left, son asked if he could take the truck with him. H was not communicating with me AT ALL, so I told my son to take his truck home since he needed it and H didn't seem to need it or want it.

Now...H is extremely mad that son took the truck home (he lives about 2.5 hours away). H compared the importance of our marriage to the ownership of the truck. Saying if I cannot uphold the agreement about the truck, then why should he believe that I would uphold our marriage vows that are just a piece of paper. Is that messed up??? Or am I the one who is wrong here?

Anyways talking certainly DID NOT WORK. He continues to blame EVERYTHING on me. He says it might have been wrong to ignore me for a week, but it's his right to decide if he wants to talk to me or not. I guess it is his 'right' but it's not acceptable in a marriage imo.

Just so frustrated that he doesn't care. I don't understand. Maybe I'm not supposed to.
This ^ is plain and simple drama you don't need.

Read this again, from the perspective of a person that's your good, dear friend.

Stop engaging him. He is on a mission, and it's not one of diplomacy.


"If you deliberately plan on being less than you are capable of being, then I warn you that you'll be unhappy for the rest of your life."

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post #71 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 08:24 AM
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

goodtherapy.org and psychologytoday.com having searchable profiles of mental healthcare providers.

In my major metropolitan area, there are just a couple that claim in their profiles expertise with BPD. Maybe a few more claim competency with DBT (dialectical behavior therapy), which was created by some focused on treating folks with BPD.

I would frame initial conversations with your therapist as "I am urgently seeking some seasoned and objective perspective on what I am up against. I assume and accept there is room for me to grow in the service of my life. One important aspect of this is --at this time -- I need someone I can trust and with true wisdom in working with people exhibiting his sort of behaviors in various degrees -- to enlighten me and keep me honest in my thinking about him. I fear I might have fooled myself (if I have, I intend to work on that), and want to avoid wishful thinking."

All sorts of providers can misread a new patient's intentions by projecting other patient's motives onto him or her. Lots of people enter therapy hoping to find an expert to pile on more justification for feeling "it is him, not me, isn't it?" -- when often enough that is not the case. And, so, I can see how a therapist could lose objectivity or have initial biases. What I suggest is the only meager attempt I can come up with to attempt to defuse potential for being misread. YMMV.

Trouble is, sometimes it is the case the other has a PD. IMHO you are better off with someone who has significant experience with dealing with PDs. And, be educate yourself

Btw, see outofthefog.net
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post #72 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 07:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

Thank you for the links. I will check them out.

I guess I want justification if there is a reason to have it. But I am just as interested in getting help for myself...especially if I am the problem and don't realize it. :/
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post #73 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-28-2016, 08:17 AM
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

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Now...H is extremely mad that son took the truck home (he lives about 2.5 hours away). H compared the importance of our marriage to the ownership of the truck.
I'm being honest, here.

What supposed grown-ass MAN needs to depend on his wife's young adult son to provide a truck for him? Is he that stupid that he thinks he's entitled to your kid providing for him?

Quote:
Anyways talking certainly DID NOT WORK. He continues to blame EVERYTHING on me. He says it might have been wrong to ignore me for a week, but it's his right to decide if he wants to talk to me or not. I guess it is his 'right' but it's not acceptable in a marriage imo.
And it's your 'right' to dump 180 pounds of worthless flesh in divorce court.

So it kind of evens out.
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post #74 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-28-2016, 04:48 PM
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

Do yourself and your children a favor... don't let him come back, and file for divorce. Your kids don't deserve to live in a home where someone treats them badly and resents them, and where their mother is also mistreated. Don't think about yourself, think of what is best for your kids...HE isn't best for your kids.

I cant decide if he is mentally unbalanced, or a cheater, or both. Probably both! The man did you a HUGE favor by leaving. Let him stay gone.

Life is too short to spend time with people who suck the happiness out of you.

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post #75 of 123 (permalink) Old 09-28-2016, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pushed until I told him to leave...and then he RAN FAST!

I know you are all right....I wish it made it hurt less. He has been gone three weeks and two days now. Despite all the emotions I have been going through, my kids are doing well. Very well. I guess I should have expected that! They feel bad that I am sad, but I think they are perfectly happy that he is gone.

I am really hoping he doesn't try to fight anything in court. I just want it all done with. The court date is set for Dec. 30th.
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