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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:20 AM
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

Could you take out some cash in smaller amounts here and there to pay for a one hour consult with an attorney?

Would you mind sharing which state you live in? It would be a lot easier to give you input if I could do some reading about your state and divorce.

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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:23 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

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Could you take out some cash in smaller amounts here and there to pay for a one hour consult with an attorney?

Would you mind sharing which state you live in? It would be a lot easier to give you input if I could do some reading about your state and divorce.
I guess that could be an option which I had not thought of.

I am bordering your state to the left.

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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:30 AM
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

I think that the mediator is asking for way too much detail. Is there any way you could check with a different mediator? That forum could very well lead to a lot of arguments.

Here's what I would do with the children's part of your home expenses.

It could be argued that if you did not have the children, you would not need the house you have. So, you have the children 50% of the time. That is 3 people living in your home. While they are there only 50% of the time, you still have to pay the mortgage 100% of the time to cover their rooms and their use of the home.

I would argue that 3 people live in the home, so each person accounts for 1/3 of all household expenses. So allocate 2/3 of mortgage, utilities, etc to the children.

With groceries, they are there 50% of the time, so the children count for 1/3 of your grocery bills.

Do you know if your wife is going to put things like manicures, etc on her list? If she does, then you add some of this stuff as well for yourself. Find the most expensive place to get hair cuts for men in your town. Use their price. Put down manicures and pedicures for yourself. Men get those. So add them. After all you need to look good too Is this game playing? I don't think so. That forum is for the two of you to negotiate. if she argues that you don't need that stuff, she has made the argument that she too does not need that stuff.
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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:36 AM
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

Alimony is money that one spouse pays to the other for support either during or after a divorce (or both). In Arizona, alimony is called "spousal maintenance." When spouses separate, one person may be unable to pay for regular living expenses, in which case a judge may require the higher earner—whether that is the husband or the wife—to assist the lower earner financially for at least some period of time.

Types of Spousal Maintenance in Arizona

A judge in Arizona may award temporary—or "pendente lite," meaning pending the final divorce—maintenance during divorce proceedings. When the final order is entered, the judge may also order either temporary or permanent maintenance for a period of time. An order may direct one spouse to pay the other a lump sum, or more commonly, a monthly amount for a specific length of time.

Permanent spousal maintenance is becoming increasingly rare. Even after longer marriages, courts mostly tend to look at maintenance as rehabilitative—in other words, put in place temporarily to allow a spouse to find a job or obtain training and education to improve employment prospects.

In some situations, a court may award limited maintenance as reimbursement to a spouse who contributed to the advanced education and earning capacity of the other spouse. Courts generally award permanent maintenance only to spouses who are unable to become self-supporting—due to age or disability, for example—and even then only after long marriages. A couple can always agree between themselves to provide one spouse with long-term or permanent maintenance if both agree that this is fair.

Eligibility for Maintenance

To award spousal maintenance, a court must find that one spouse has financial need and the other has the ability to pay. An Arizona court may determine that need exists if one spouse:

• does not have enough property—even after the marital distribution—to provide for reasonable needs
• contributed to the other spouse’s educational opportunities, or
• is unable to be self-sufficient through appropriate employment.

Whether a spouse is able to be self-sufficient through employment requires the the judge to consider additional factors, including the current labor market and the spouse's existing skills and experience. Arizona courts give special consideration to older spouses who served as homemakers during long marriages, who commonly find that age and years out of the job market make it very difficult to find work that supports a lifestyle comparable to that enjoyed during marriage. A spouse who is the custodian of a very young child or a disabled child may not be required to seek immediate employment outside the home due to the needs of the child.

A court that finds spousal maintenance appropriate will set the amount and duration of the award after considering all relevant factors, including:

• the marital standard of living
• the length of the marriage
• the age, employment history, earning ability, and physical and emotional condition of the spouse seeking maintenance
• the paying spouse’s ability to meet the financial needs of both spouses
• the spouses’ comparative financial resources and earning abilities
• contributions of the spouse seeking maintenance to the other spouse’s earning ability
• the extent to which reductions in income or career opportunities of the spouse seeking maintenance benefitted the other spouse
• both spouses’ ability to contribute to their children’s future educational costs
• other financial resources available to meet the needs of the spouse seeking maintenance, including an award of marital property
• educational or training opportunities available to the spouse seeking maintenance and time required to take advantage of any such opportunities
• either spouse’s excessive spending, or destruction, concealment, or fraudulent disposition of jointly held property
• costs of health insurance for each spouse, and
• any damages and judgments from a spouse’s conduct that resulted in criminal conviction, if the other spouse or a child was the victim.

Although some courts in Arizona have experimented with using formulas to compute spousal maintenance, an Arizona judge who consults a formula must still consider all of the factors outlined above. After taking such factors into account, a judge has discretion in deciding what amount to award, or whether to award any amount at all.

Termination or Modification

Couples may enter into their own agreements either waiving maintenance entirely or providing that neither will seek any changes to maintenance in court. Unless they make such an agreement, or unless the final divorce order says otherwise, either spouse may request a court to modify or terminate periodic payments due to a material change in circumstances. Payments end when the term of an award expires, when the recipient spouse remarries, or upon the death of either spouse.

Tax Effects

Periodic maintenance payments are usually taxable to the recipient and tax-deductible by the payer. Couples can sometimes take advantage of this situation by structuring payments to create the best possible tax scenario for both spouses. The IRS generally treats lump-sum payments as property distributions even if the court or the couple refers to the payment as maintenance or alimony. Under these circumstances there would be no tax effects for either spouse.

http://www.divorcenet.com/resources/...ing-alimony-ar

{Edited to have the info for the correct state.}

Last edited by EleGirl; 04-20-2017 at 11:53 AM.
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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

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I think that the mediator is asking for way too much detail. Is there any way you could check with a different mediator? That forum could very well lead to a lot of arguments.

Here's what I would do with the children's part of your home expenses.

It could be argued that if you did not have the children, you would not need the house you have. So, you have the children 50% of the time. That is 3 people living in your home. While they are there only 50% of the time, you still have to pay the mortgage 100% of the time to cover their rooms and their use of the home.

I would argue that 3 people live in the home, so each person accounts for 1/3 of all household expenses. So allocate 2/3 of mortgage, utilities, etc to the children.

With groceries, they are there 50% of the time, so the children count for 1/3 of your grocery bills.

Do you know if your wife is going to put things like manicures, etc on her list? If she does, then you add some of this stuff as well for yourself. Find the most expensive place to get hair cuts for men in your town. Use their price. Put down manicures and pedicures for yourself. Men get those. So add them. After all you need to look good too Is this game playing? I don't think so. That forum is for the two of you to negotiate. if she argues that you don't need that stuff, she has made the argument that she too does not need that stuff.
Not sure what she is going to put on but i do know she is expecting Alimony from me.

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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

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Have you seen and used the Colorado child support calculator? there is a link to it here.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/Forms...orm_Type_ID=71

Download Client Software - Family Law Software
Yeah we are good on CS thanks.

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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:48 AM
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

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Yeah we are good on CS thanks.
I looked up the wrong state.... sorry about that.
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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:52 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

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I looked up the wrong state.... sorry about that.
I used same site to find correct state


the marital standard of living - We did not live Lavish

the length of the marriage 12 years

the age, employment history, earning ability, and physical and emotional condition of the spouse seeking maintenance Young, Employed, educated, good health

the paying spouse’s ability to meet the financial needs of both spouses I can afford to pay I just really don't feel like I should have to

the spouses’ comparative financial resources and earning abilities I earn much more but she has potential to get to similar level in next few years.

contributions of the spouse seeking maintenance to the other spouse’s earning ability _zero

the extent to which reductions in income or career opportunities of the spouse seeking maintenance benefitted the other spouse -None

both spouses’ ability to contribute to their children’s future educational costs Not sure

other financial resources available to meet the needs of the spouse seeking maintenance, including an award of marital property -i will leave with Zero cash assets or retirement, she will have large lump sum for new house deposit, lots of expensive furniture, decent retirement.

educational or training opportunities available to the spouse seeking maintenance and time required to take advantage of any such opportunities - none known

either spouse’s excessive spending, or destruction, concealment, or fraudulent disposition of jointly held property
- NOne

costs of health insurance for each spouse I would cover COBRA

any damages and judgments from a spouse’s conduct that resulted in criminal conviction, if the other spouse or a child was the victim.
- None

Although some courts have experimented with using formulas to compute spousal maintenance, a judge who consults a formula must still consider all of the factors outlined above. After taking such factors into account, a judge has discretion in deciding what amount to award, or whether to award any amount at all.

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Last edited by MovingForward; 04-20-2017 at 11:58 AM.
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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 11:58 AM
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

Based on the below info, you might be paying alimony for 3.5 to 6 years. But alimony is AZ is considered rehabilitative, not life-time support. It is not considered to be about maintaining the same lifestyle. Does your wife really need rehabilitation when it comes to income?

She has a business, right? Has she been working the business full time? Or is it more of a hobby business?


"As for how long an ex-spouse needs to pay alimony, a good rule of thumb is to multiply the years of marriage by 0.3 to 0.5.* For example a person with a ten year marriage may have to pay spousal maintenance for three to five years.* But again this is not a hard and fast rule an many other factors need to be considered.

Arizona is what is known as a rehabilitate state when it comes to alimony.* Meaning that the purpose of the alimony should be to enable the other spouse to get back on their feet and be self-sufficient.* Thus alimony awards in Arizona may be for less number of years than what other states would award."

http://divorceinfo.com/azfaqsalimony.htm
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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

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Based on the below info, you might be paying alimony for 3.5 to 6 years. But alimony is AZ is considered rehabilitative, not life-time support. It is not considered to be about maintaining the same lifestyle. Does your wife really need rehabilitation when it comes to income?

She has a business, right? Has she been working the business full time? Or is it more of a hobby business?


"As for how long an ex-spouse needs to pay alimony, a good rule of thumb is to multiply the years of marriage by 0.3 to 0.5.* For example a person with a ten year marriage may have to pay spousal maintenance for three to five years.* But again this is not a hard and fast rule an many other factors need to be considered.

Arizona is what is known as a rehabilitate state when it comes to alimony.* Meaning that the purpose of the alimony should be to enable the other spouse to get back on their feet and be self-sufficient.* Thus alimony awards in Arizona may be for less number of years than what other states would award."

http://divorceinfo.com/azfaqsalimony.htm
Yes she has a full time career currently she went back to work last year.

She would initially have to reduce living standard but just luxury items and things she has took for granted such as just buying or spending whatever she wanted without thought, she will have to budget but i think she could manage financially just fine.


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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 12:23 PM
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
I used same site to find correct state


the marital standard of living - We did not live Lavish
good
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
the length of the marriage 12 years
So at most, alimony would be .3 to .5 of the length of the marriage…. Or 3.5 to 6 years… AT MOST
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
the age, employment history, earning ability, and physical and emotional condition of the spouse seeking maintenance Young, Employed, educated, good health
good
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
the paying spouse’s ability to meet the financial needs of both spouses I can afford to pay I just really don't feel like I should have to
Don’t blame you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
the spouses’ comparative financial resources and earning abilities I earn much more but she has potential to get to similar level in next few years.
This is important. So if she gets alimony, it should be for a very short period of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
contributions of the spouse seeking maintenance to the other spouse’s earning ability _zero
ok
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the extent to which reductions in income or career opportunities of the spouse seeking maintenance benefitted the other spouse -None
Was she a SAHM? Did she take care of the children, the home, and cook, etc? If she did that would be considered her making less money helping you because she took a lot of the burden having a home with children off of you.
Quote:
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both spouses’ ability to contribute to their children’s future educational costs Not sure
ok
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
other financial resources available to meet the needs of the spouse seeking maintenance, including an award of marital property -i will leave with Zero cash assets or retirement, she will have large lump sum for new house deposit, lots of expensive furniture, decent retirement.
Why is she taking your entire retirement and all cash?????

Does she have retirement right now? If so, you are you not taking 50% of hers and her taking 50% of your? Why is she getting all of your and all of her own?

What I would suggest you do is that you make up a spread sheet of what this would look like if the two of you split this. And she does not just get everything, instead she gets 50% of it all. And then if you agree to her taking your 50% that is offset against any alimony. If she insists on alimony, you insist on 50% of all assets to include cash and BOTH of your retirements.
Quote:
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educational or training opportunities available to the spouse seeking maintenance and time required to take advantage of any such opportunities - none known
Does this mean that she is able to earn a living close to your income with education that she already has? Or at least able to earn enough to support herself and her part of the child maintenance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
either spouse’s excessive spending, or destruction, concealment, or fraudulent disposition of jointly held property - NOne
good
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Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
costs of health insurance for each spouse I would cover COBRA
COBRA can only be carried for a short time. So, what happens after COBRA is no longer available to her?
If you are covering her COBRA, then that too should be deducted from any alimony. It would be better to just give her the amount to cover COBRA and let her pay for it or get other insurance because you do not want to set up the precedence in which you are responsible for her medical insurance.

I assume that you will continue to carry your children on your medical insurance available through your job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
any damages and judgments from a spouse’s conduct that resulted in criminal conviction, if the other spouse or a child was the victim. - None
good
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
Although some courts have experimented with using formulas to compute spousal maintenance, a judge who consults a formula must still consider all of the factors outlined above. After taking such factors into account, a judge has discretion in deciding what amount to award, or whether to award any amount at all.
What’s in your favor is that AZ, like many states are moving away from alimony in situations like yours where the couple is young and the lower income spouse has all the capability to earn a good living.

If she has the education and some work experience that would allow her to earn close to what you earn, you could also look at imputing income to her. That way alimony is based on her earning potential and not on her choice to earn a lower amount as thus stay dependent on you.
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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 12:27 PM
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

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Yes she has a full time career currently she went back to work last year.

She would initially have to reduce living standard but just luxury items and things she has took for granted such as just buying or spending whatever she wanted without thought, she will have to budget but i think she could manage financially just fine.
Does she have a business and a job now? I think I'm confused.

As a rule of thumb, do the 50/40 calculation... 40% of the your net income -50% of the her net income. See what that looks like.
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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

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Was she a SAHM? Did she take care of the children, the home, and cook, etc? If she did that would be considered her making less money helping you because she took a lot of the burden having a home with children off of you
yes she was for 2 years this was part of our issue, I was against the idea but she did it anyway and her prior career she was earning about the same as she currently is and had pretty much topped out unless she went for a different position which she had no intention or desire to do. No burden was really taken from me since when i got home everything was my problem as she needed a break.

Quote:
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Why is she taking your entire retirement and all cash?????
Does she have retirement right now? If so, you are you not taking 50% of hers and her taking 50% of your? Why is she getting all of your and all of her own?
.
She is getting 50% rolled over into hers and cashing out the other 50% plus any left over cash I had as her share of house equity so i did not have to sell and can keep it, I like the house and want the kids to keep some stability. She barely has a thing because she never paid into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
Does this mean that she is able to earn a living close to your income with education that she already has? Or at least able to earn enough to support herself and her part of the child maintenance?
yes she requires no further training for her Job just needs more time and experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
COBRA can only be carried for a short time. So, what happens after COBRA is no longer available to her?
If you are covering her COBRA, then that too should be deducted from any alimony. It would be better to just give her the amount to cover COBRA and let her pay for it or get other insurance because you do not want to set up the precedence in which you are responsible for her medical insurance.

I assume that you will continue to carry your children on your medical insurance available through your job.
I was hoping that would cover all the criteria to not pay any additional Alimony, Cobra is manageable for her and can last for 36 months to get a private plan the costs quoted have been astronomical.

Children will be remaining on my healthcare.

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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 01:34 PM
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

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... but something about Alimony and paying for an X wife is just a really hard pill to swallow for me.

I feel like you said she should take care of herself and reduce her cost of living for non essentials and not require any.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. In my opinion, alimony should only be awarded if there is a spouse that has been non-working throughout the marriage. If the two spouses have both been working, then (and this is strictly my own opinion) alimony should not be granted unless the two salaries are glaringly different (i.e., one spouse makes six figures while the other earns $35,000).

In my case, I earn 30% less than my husband, but I will be receiving child support payments for 5 years (reduced in the 5th year when my oldest turns 18). During the first year, with child support included, my "take home" $$ (salary & child support) will be just below 7% of his take home $$ minus child support, but I'll have the kids 70% of the time. In my mind, that's more than enough and alimony was not necessary because I can reduce my own expenses as necessary (I did it many years ago when I got laid off and was out of work for a long while, and I can do it again).

Married 20 years, currently working on reconciling with husband (originally planned to separate in 2018)
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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 01:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Expenses Sheet for mediation?

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If the two spouses have both been working, then (and this is strictly my own opinion) alimony should not be granted unless the two salaries are glaringly different
Well that is the problem our earnings are glaringly different but i still feel providing she can afford House, Car, Healthcare, food and essentials which she will be able to then it should not matter. [/QUOTE]

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