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Old 01-06-2013, 09:07 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TNman
Evidently wives are finding it much easier to move on-the LBH is blocked out of her heart and not given a chance to repair and reconnect after he realizes(too late) the WAW has checked out of the marriage emotionally and physically.
Sorry, I disagree. It seems like most WAW have tried and tried and tried only to be ignored and dismissed as "complainers" before she finally decides enough is enough.

I'm not judging anyone, I'm just stating my opinion.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:25 PM   #17 (permalink)
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A two-month old post but I just had to comment. Everyone's sitch is different, but for me, my Ex would probably agree w/ YinPrincess.

However, I would disagree with her big time. Here's the deal, marriage is not easy, it is work. The same is true for love. In the famous book The Road Less Traveled, it was eloquently stated that real love starts when romantic love ends. The honeymoon always ends. Love ends when someone puts their selfish interests ahead of their partner's.

My ex complained from time to time about things that bothered her about me... so did I! She by in large ignored the stuff that drove me nuts about her & so did I. There's a HUGE difference between little things that drive each other crazy and having an affair/ committing adultery! It's no wonder the divorce rate is so high in this country. When spouses wake up one day & decide to just ruin the lives of their spouse and children instead of getting counseling, etc., they deserve the label of WAS.

People like this are in for a lifetime of misery & failed relationships. I am all for listening to your spouse when something is truly bothering them in the relationship. But there is undoubtedly a huge communication failure going on. I would agree that many WAS's would claim the same thing as YinPrincess but there are an equal number of LBS's that would state the D came out of nowhere. Unless there was MC and multiple formal sit-down discussions, I'm not buying that the WAS tried & tried. I'm just stating my opinion as well...
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:43 PM   #18 (permalink)
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It takes two to work. If one refuses or is in denial, they might very well stay that way even long after the relationship has ended...
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:47 AM   #19 (permalink)
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A two-month old post but I just had to comment. Everyone's sitch is different, but for me, my Ex would probably agree w/ YinPrincess.

However, I would disagree with her big time. Here's the deal, marriage is not easy, it is work. The same is true for love. In the famous book The Road Less Traveled, it was eloquently stated that real love starts when romantic love ends. The honeymoon always ends. Love ends when someone puts their selfish interests ahead of their partner's.

My ex complained from time to time about things that bothered her about me... so did I! She by in large ignored the stuff that drove me nuts about her & so did I. There's a HUGE difference between little things that drive each other crazy and having an affair/ committing adultery! It's no wonder the divorce rate is so high in this country. When spouses wake up one day & decide to just ruin the lives of their spouse and children instead of getting counseling, etc., they deserve the label of WAS.

People like this are in for a lifetime of misery & failed relationships. I am all for listening to your spouse when something is truly bothering them in the relationship. But there is undoubtedly a huge communication failure going on. I would agree that many WAS's would claim the same thing as YinPrincess but there are an equal number of LBS's that would state the D came out of nowhere. Unless there was MC and multiple formal sit-down discussions, I'm not buying that the WAS tried & tried. I'm just stating my opinion as well...
Thanks for your post. Although everyone's sitch is different, I agree with you in my sitch. If there is something that my wife did not like about me and it was communicated to me in a clear manner, I would reflect on it and try to correct it. I don't feel that her communication was clear and I blame myself for not understanding and trying to clarify things further with her. She even admitted that she may not have communicated things to me in the best way. With that being said, there is no excuse for having an affair and if she was so unhappy with me, I would have been happy to address it with her either through MC or other avenues. Sadly, I was not afforded that option and suspect many other LBS aren't either.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:54 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I just want to make clear that I absolutely do not approve of or condone infidelity. OP, I am very sorry that you are going through this. If I may ask, why didn't you want to clarify things you didn't understand from your wife? Did you feel her complaints were trivial or insignificant? I often wonder why, (in my situation) I think I can spell things out clearly for my husband and yet he is dismissive, uninterested and disengaged. Sometimes he will tell me he did not understand what I meant - but he NEVER asks any questions to follow-up or gain insight. Further, he never really seems to give my needs the validation they need. I am just a "complainer" I guess. Anyhow, I was just curious.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:38 AM   #21 (permalink)
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TNman, StephenG - I can't believe how many of us are in he same boat.
Me too, guys, me too.

Classic WAW, OM, all the symptoms.

But do you know what - I have stopped beating myself up because I didn't do more. Sure the problems in the marriage were in part (make that in large part) down to me. But she never said "there is something very wrong here, we need to fix it" Oh she probably thinks she did by dropping oblique hints or by talking about A when B was the real issue or by just expecting me to be a mind-reader. And she was the one who decided to walk away without even so much as a discussion. She was the one who decided to go out, set up secret email accounts and find strangers (most of whom were men) to pour her heart out to. That is her decision and she owns that.
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:54 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I often wonder why, (in my situation) I think I can spell things out clearly for my husband and yet he is dismissive, uninterested and disengaged. Sometimes he will tell me he did not understand what I meant - but he NEVER asks any questions to follow-up or gain insight.
I know nothing of your situation, but the more you read around the subject the more you begin to understand and appreciate the differences between the way men and women communicate and understand.

Forget the actual words or issues and look at the messages. A woman who feels under-loved or undervalued will typically make an issue of something else (e.g. taking out the trash, helping with the kids) on the grounds that "if he really loved me he would do that". What she is trying to do is to draw him closer and get him to show his love. But the "if you really loved me..." assumption remains hidden from the man. Men take things very literally, and he thinks that this is is simply discussing the trash or the kids - he doesn't "get" that this is really a conversation about the way his wife is feeling.

And it gets worse if the wife puts it in the form of "you never take out the trash or help with the kids". Even if she is more direct about her feelings and says "You never spend any time with me" then he feels under attack and gets defensive. Feeling under attack he distances himself from her, which is the precise opposite of what she is trying to achieve. And if her response to him distancing himself is to try the same thing again, and again, and again then as far as the man is concerned he feels under a constant bombardment of criticism from his wife. His focus is entirely on "where the hell does this all come from, what did I do to deserve it and how do I make it stop?" He has battened down the hatches and gone into full defensive mode - the last thing he is going to do is to start trying to work out how his wife is feeling.
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:05 AM   #23 (permalink)
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No she is not involved in PA anymore but I think since she got a taste and once her chemicals got flowing, it put the nail in the coffin for me. According to her it was a short fling and she doesn't even know how it happened. She stopped going to MC with me as she said she is DONE.
The only proof you can ever have of that is if you attended OM's funeral.

"According to her..." = she's lying

"She doesn't know..." = she knows exactly


Sounds harsh, but that's the reality.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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YinPrincess - you pose a very interesting question. I'm not sure there is an easy answer. Did I at times feel her complaints were trivial or insignificant. Probably at times yes I did. I couldn't understand why she would lambast me over very mundane things and make me feel incapable of doing things up to her standards. I understand now that it was probably not about those mundane tasks but about more of an underlying issue between us and maybe she was trying to connect with me more. I think there were communication issues and big misunderstandings. My wife had a very hard time after the birth of my son. Seeing her struggling, I tried to do things that I thought would help her like getting up with him three times a night and early in the morning to let her sleep. I tried to do more chores around the house. It seemed no matter what I did she just got more unhappy to the point that I had to walk on eggshells because she would just explode on me and sometimes my son. Anytime, I tried to talk to her it became ugly. After I while I just stopped trying. I thought it was just a phase and we would get through it I became a doormat trying to please her all the while she would reject all my advances of affection such as hand holding and sex. After ILYBNILWY speech I find out she has a huge amount of resentment towards me cause she felt I wasn't meeting her needs which contributed to the affair. I know I am no mr romantic and have a lot of shortcomings but I was doing what I thought a loving husband would do in trying to meet those needs. I have learned alot through out this whole process but I think it is too late. I always loved her with all my heart that why I was shocked when the sh/t hit the fan. From reading the five languages it could i wasn't speaking her primary love language.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:34 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I know nothing of your situation, but the more you read around the subject the more you begin to understand and appreciate the differences between the way men and women communicate and understand.

Forget the actual words or issues and look at the messages. A woman who feels under-loved or undervalued will typically make an issue of something else (e.g. taking out the trash, helping with the kids) on the grounds that "if he really loved me he would do that". What she is trying to do is to draw him closer and get him to show his love. But the "if you really loved me..." assumption remains hidden from the man. Men take things very literally, and he thinks that this is is simply discussing the trash or the kids - he doesn't "get" that this is really a conversation about the way his wife is feeling.

And it gets worse if the wife puts it in the form of "you never take out the trash or help with the kids". Even if she is more direct about her feelings and says "You never spend any time with me" then he feels under attack and gets defensive. Feeling under attack he distances himself from her, which is the precise opposite of what she is trying to achieve. And if her response to him distancing himself is to try the same thing again, and again, and again then as far as the man is concerned he feels under a constant bombardment of criticism from his wife. His focus is entirely on "where the hell does this all come from, what did I do to deserve it and how do I make it stop?" He has battened down the hatches and gone into full defensive mode - the last thing he is going to do is to start trying to work out how his wife is feeling.
Well said
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:30 PM   #26 (permalink)
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orget the actual words or issues and look at the messages. A woman who feels under-loved or undervalued will typically make an issue of something else (e.g. taking out the trash, helping with the kids) on the grounds that "if he really loved me he would do that". What she is trying to do is to draw him closer and get him to show his love. But the "if you really loved me..." assumption remains hidden from the man. Men take things very literally, and he thinks that this is is simply discussing the trash or the kids - he doesn't "get" that this is really a conversation about the way his wife is feeling.
Well, just speaking for myself, I may have done what you described in earlier relationships when I was younger and really just naÔve to better methods of communication. However, I, like how you've described men, am usually a very literal person.

Regardless of the words said, I don't think it is very difficult for many people to tell that someone is aggitated or upset by their demeanor... Especially if you know them well - you can "feel" when something is amiss. Again, speaking for myself. (I know not everyone is just like me, lol)!

I can see what you're talking about, though. A woman who cannot articulate the source or reason for her general unhappiness may indeed jump all over you for a seemingly beneign infraction. It may be because she doesn't know how to broach the subject, or may not even know what the subject is... Or worse, she fears that her most vulnerable feelings will be met with denial, trivialization or contempt, so she avoids being direct. Just like a man should not fear being open and honest with a woman, neither should a woman be intimidated by a man. Getting snippy over something stupid just doesn't help anyone.

However, when a man detects this, and senses that the real issue is not forthcoming, he has two choices: Avoid. Run like the wind. Duck for cover OR he can simply and *lovingly* acknowledge that he notices she's upset.

It's really NOT HARD, guys. (Promise). You simply put your arms around her and hug her... Kiss her on the forehead and say something corny like, "It seems like you need a hug. Do you want to talk?" (I know, you don't want to talk... But give it a chance). NO MATTER WHAT SHE SAYS, whether you agree or not, just acknowledge and validate her feelings. Don't explain, excuse, deny anything. And DON'T apologize for how SHE feels. It can be perceived as blowing her off.

Quote:
Feeling under attack he distances himself from her, which is the precise opposite of what she is trying to achieve. And if her response to him distancing himself is to try the same thing again, and again, and again then as far as the man is concerned he feels under a constant bombardment of criticism from his wife.
I can relate to and understand the feeling of being attacked. No one likes that. We'd all like to run from it, BUT! It won't go away. As you described, a woman may make repeated attempts to explain and gain his interest and concern. She may not know she's doing it the "right" or "wrong" way... She's just trying to get your attention. As much as you'd like to escape, would it be possible for once that you turn and face her? Hear what she has to say? Look her in the eyes with kindness? Provide a loving and supportive venue for her to be safe and protected? Women prize being heard and understood (even if you don't agree - you will want to wait until after she's done to mention your perspective and hopefully she returns the same courtesy to you by listening with love and compassion).

Criticisms (in MY opinion) are rarely just critisims. There's usually a reason or message behind them, or as noted above, she may be using them to get your attention because she isn't sure (or even aware) that she needs to approach you and communicate.

I know this all sounds like I am sticking up for the woman and making the man responsible for playing detective and solving her problems. NO. I am merely saying pay attention to the cues that she may have been upset or bothered and be OPEN to helping her figure out what that is. I'm not saying let her bash you, or take the next 10 hours to let her nit-pick each one of your flaws.

Your goal isn't to solve the problem! It's to let her talk about it in a way that makes her feel safe and important. (Easy)!

Well. That was more wordy then I had intended, but I hope the general idea is understood. All of this is just MY OPINION. Not everyone will agree, but if you are present with her and sincerely interested it will be A LOT easier than just running away and hoping she mysteriously cheers up... It's worth a try, right?
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:06 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Did I at times feel her complaints were trivial or insignificant. Probably at times yes I did. I couldn't understand why she would lambast me over very mundane things and make me feel incapable of doing things up to her standards.
This is probably miscommunication. Perhaps the content of what she was expressing was trivial, but her feelings behind it were not. For example, a simple thing like not taking out the trash could be translated into her feeling unheard, unimportant or dismissed. You're thinking "trash". She may be thinking "he ignored me/doesn't pay attention" or even "I'm unimportant" (I know - extreme, I'm just trying to provide an example off the top of my head).

So yeah, you don't think it's that big a deal and she's thinking her "needs" are of no concern to you. Two very different things.

That's why it's important to "listen". I can't really explain the "not doing things to her standards" bit, until I have an example or a little more clarity by what you mean...

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I tried to do things that I thought would help her like getting up with him three times a night and early in the morning to let her sleep. I tried to do more chores around the house. It seemed no matter what I did she just got more unhappy
Hmm. She might have interpreted this as you "avoiding" her or having the time and energy for everything BUT her. She may have just wanted you to spend some time cuddling and catching up with her. Sometimes (and I know this from personal experience), when a man busies himself with chores (or hobbies) trying to be productive and stay out of the way, she might see this as "laundry is more important" "football is more important" "I must not be very important". Might sound dumb but it's true. I had a major problem taking everything personally. (Still do). This is just a guess, though. There could be other issues I am not aware of or haven't considered...

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Anytime, I tried to talk to her it became ugly. After I while I just stopped trying.
Well, how did you try talking to her? Did you say, "Hey! What the heck crawled up your butt?" Or, did you express love and concern, "I can see that you are upset... Let's go cuddle on the sofa and talk about it..." (I know, corny).

If she said she felt ignored/unimportant for example, did you listen and try to understand? "I guess I have been a little busy lately... I can see how you felt ignored..." Or did you say, "I've been busy working and washing the dishes! I try to be nice and help out so you can lay around and all you do is b*tch!" Well, I am sure you can see which attitude probably generated the best results...

Quote:
but I was doing what I thought a loving husband would do in trying to meet those needs.
This is the saddest and most unfortunate of all. You were doing what you thought was best... She obviously felt a little differently about that. No, you might not have been perfect, but she had no right to go out and involve herself in a affair. I hope that things work out for the best, whether with her or without, but either way... Make the best of a sad experience. Learn from it and use it to grow and evolve as an individual. That way... Not all was in vain.

I hope some of my ideas are helpful, at least as a starting point. I'm no psychologist. And I AM a woman () but this is just a stab I'm taking. Could be way off-base, but then I don't have all the information that you and she have...

Best of luck to you...
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:07 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Hmm... Interesting. Hamsters. LoL!!
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:22 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Been a while but wanted to update on my sitch.

I have been continuing to 180 but does not seem to be working. My wife is hell bent on divorce and wants it fast. We are now discussing asset distribution. She says she does not think we are compatible. She is re-writing history I think to justify the D. I am panicking and cry all the time (not in front of her) about the breakup of my marriage and my family. I am trying to be strong, cool and confident in front of her. I try not to take the bait when she tries to start arguments and not let her push me around anymore. She has absolutley no respect for me now. I think that is because I did not go all scorched earth and blow up the A when I found out about it. I regret that. Would that have made a difference? I don't know. I think I was too shell shocked at the time and didn't want to make the wrong move.

She has always been controlling and domineering. Not so much in the begining of our relationship but certainly more as it progressed and seems to have come to a head after the birth of our son. Looking back I see that I have lost my self and become a doormat to her trying to always please her and make her happy. I see now this help to contribute to the situation after reading NMMNG. I always wanted to be around my family becasue that is what made me happy. My self esteem is in the gutter. Shes been verbally abusive saying really nasty things about me and its hurts beyond anything. I try not to let it get to me as I believe the "believe none of what they say and 50% of what they do" mantra. I know I am not as horrible as she makes me out to be and I know I am a great guy. I can't stop blaming myself for letting things get to this point. I constantly think back on things now and say if I only did that differently etc.. My brother thinks that she would be unhappy no matter what I did and that I shouldn't blame my self as I was a good husband and am a good father. Am I dense? Yes. Do I need to be hit over the head sometimes? Yes. I am only human and we all have our shortcomings. I am able to look myself in the mirror and try and work on myself. After coming across a few threads on BPD I have been reading up on that. i don't know if she is or not but she does fit some of the profile. She can also be a bit narcissitic as she expects me to drop whatever it is I am doing to help her with something most of the time. she shows no empathy for what I have been going through. I came home from a short stint in the emergency room and she didn't even ask how I was doing and then proceeded to get mad because her family kept calling to see how I was doing. WTF?

Why can't i let go??? Reason is despite all that she has put me through, I still love her. I feel that she is going through some inner turmoil and that I need to stick by her even though I realize that I can't. She needs to walk that path alone. i hope that she will find her path back to this marriage. I want to work to create a new dynamic in our relationship and keep my family intact. We used to do everything together as a family. Weekend breakfeasts, trips to the park, vacations, even the grocery shopping we all did together. I am incredibly close with her family and they don't understand why she is doing this and don't support it. This is not the same woman that I married. I am grieving the loss of my family. This is my worst nightmare and I can't seem to wake up from it. I wake up every morning to the same bleak prospect that everyday brings us closer to D.

Sorry for rambling as my thoughts are all scattered. I am devasted by all this and appreciate any thoughts. Feel free to break out the 2x4's.
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