Do women really want what they want? - Page 2

Chopblock · 05-05-2008, 07:32 AM

I was really just curious whether there were women here who had ever dumped a guy for being "too nice" when in actuality, they themselves had a hand in that outcome. I have heard women say that they pick fights over trivial things with their men when they are bored. I have heard other women say that when they were heads over heels in love, they NEVER picked fights. Others are just temperamental or confrontational, or need drama.

I just, as I keep saying, want to make sure I don't end up becoming her big brother. We have a great relationship as people, as friends, and as two deeply connected people emotionally. The sex is just nonexistent.

I can only speculate whether its "me" or "her". I can only guess whether her not wanting to be touched is because she is repulsed by me, or hates her image in general. I've seen evidence of both.

I do love her, I know she loves me. Actions on both our parts prove that. Yes there are difficult times, but everyone has challenges.

But at this rate, I have no doubt we will hit a year with no intercourse. A few more months, and that will be the reality. That is not cool. I am not happy with it. I have said as much specifically many times.

Yet despite the complete lack of sex, I do not feel as if I have withheld anything. Her "deal" as it were, is just as sweet as ever. I believe I have not missed any signals which indicate a lack. I believe that at this point, given how clear I have been (explicitly saying I would like more sex) that if she also feels lacking, and has for almost a year, now is a good time for her to be equally candid.

I have made it clear during our multiyear relationship that if she only communicates via subtle subtext and I don't pick it up, that if whatever she wants is important, she needs to be more direct. I do not buy into the whole "I shouldn't have to TELL you" garbage.

Really which is worse: failing to do something you are unaware needs to be done, or choosing not to do something you are completely aware needs to be done?

mommy22 · 05-05-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopblock

""Oh, I'm tired. I guess I'll get the dishes done in the morning. I'm going to get in the bath." You could win some serious brownie points by doing those dishes. I'm not kidding. That could carry you for several nights!!!"

It comes and goes. I'm not dumb and blind, I can see those messages. The harder ones to see are the more cryptic ones that aren't so direct, like "CVS ran out of milanos" actually means she wants to go on vacation.

Call me crazy, but I always mean what I say. I NEVER ask for something with the intention of getting something else. What's the point in that? Also, I do want to clear up that I am not in favor of hint dropping, like the bath thing. I was suggesting ways that you could show her you love her. Open communication is by far the best and healthiest way to do that.

Again, I have to reiterate here, miscommunication is not gender specific. I have to agree with Drac in that just as many men shut down as women. I see it all the time. I think it has much more to do with personality and upbringing. 2)

Your examples were based solely on the professional world, which has vast differences to the personal world. Since tangential evidence seems to hold water with you, I have met several women who assert that "there is no 'woman's work'" and expect to share the chores equally. HOWEVER, they will NOT take out the garbage, they will NOT clean the gutters, they will NOT mow the lawn. I cook and wash dishes too, I have no problem with equitable division (notice that equitable does not always mean equal). What I take issue with is those who want the best of both worlds: the benefit of equality (pay me the same salary) but still the benefits of chivalry (I'm a woman, I shouldn't have to <thing>).

Just because you've met "several" women like this, doesn't mean we're all that way. I mow the grass, I do the weedeating, do all the cooking and cleaning, collect the trash, grocery shopping, practice baseball with the kids, do homework with the kids, home repair, I put together most everything that needs assembling, I do all the painting, I keep my body in excellent shape, make love to my husband whenever he wants, and although I have bachelor's degree, I'm currently a full-time student. My husband is constantly amazed by what I can get accomplished in a 24 hour period. He has even gone on to say that I often run circles around him and he has trouble keeping up!!!
3) Thats great that your wife is stronger than you. My mom has done the same thing, lifting boxes that men couldn't lift. But picking paradigms isn't going to make a point either. Example: I may not stack up to Cory whoever or Jill whatever, but how do THEY stack up against the strongest men in their categories? I get what you are trying to say, but your example doesn't do it justice.

I think he's trying to make a point that he and his wife fill in the gap for each other. When he was unable to perform what many would consider "manly roles", she loved him enough to step up to the plate for him.
4) I get fed up with always being accused of being a poor communicator. I make my statements and intentions very clear by communicating them as such. I do not have a hidden agenda in my relationship, it is all clear and on the table. My actions support my feelings. Consistency, transparency, its all there.

Perhaps it's not that you're not communicating your needs, but the way in which you're communicating them. If my husband says, "Honey, I'm running late, if you have a minute could you iron this for me?'', I'm much more likely to oblige than if he says, "Why didn't you iron my shirt last night? You knew I had a meeting today and now I'll probably be late all thanks to you!"

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Forgive me, I'm still having trouble figuring out how to do the multiple quote thing so I have to chand the color!

Chopblock · 05-05-2008, 08:08 AM

Thanks for your replies mommy. They were geared towards draconis, but its nice to see other viewpoints.

Though one thing that did conflict: he took the stance in point 2 that there are no gender specific roles, but then went around to imply that he shouldn't be less of a man because he was unable to perform manly roles (or his wife did them better). That is a tad confusing, which is why I worded my question the way I did.

FYI, there were points where I would draw baths for her. It wasn't just "here's a bath". There were chocolate strawberries. I washed her hair... I pumiced her freakin' feet! Most men have no idea what pumice is and I was giving it away for free!

Yes I understand "the way" I ask for things. While I've done my best to avoid being confrontational, I have had the same lack of success with "I miss the connection it gives us and would really appreciate making love to you" as I have with "its been 8 months since you put out, what the hell?"

Mommy22, you specifically said "make love to my husband whenever he wants".

Why do you do this? How did things get to be this way? I have often asserted that the sexiest thing a woman can do in bed is WANT to be there. Clearly, you want to be there, and you are choosing to do so.

A good part of my frustration is over feeling rejected. At this point, she doesn't even bother saying "I'm too tired" she says "I don't want to". Fine its honest, but you can't expect me to leave it at that. WHY doesn't she want to? I feel like a VERY important piece of the puzzle is being withheld. I feel given what I give and do, I deserve to know WHY she doesn't want to, and what I can do to fix it.

swedish · 05-05-2008, 08:44 AM

If she is being honest with you and it is self-image issues, this probably went hand in hand with feeling self-conscious about being naked and over time led to a reduction in sex drive because thinking about it brings back the stress of being naked, self-conscious, etc which can overrule the desire for the good feelings one gets from sex. Many women do not physically 'need' sex the way men do. I know my husband goes about 3 days until I can tell by his mood...he needs it...which is the only 3 days that aren't good for me each month...so I figure he doesn't have his period and just please him orally. I love sex...but I don't get irritable when I go without it...horny maybe but not annoyed/short tempered. It's just different, but I get that about him. I can't speak for all women, but it is definitely a difference between my husband and me. On the other hand, for me, the more sex I have, the more I want it. It can be out of sight, out of mind in a way but when the pleasure from it is fresh in the mind, I think about it more often...my husband is different...he thinks about it whether we have it or not and then wants to act on it. 8 months is way too long for her to say "I don't want to" with no further discussion. It sounds as though she's giving you the honest answer...don't know that there's anything to fix here other than getting her to the point that she wants an orgasm more than she cares about how she looks at the moment.

mommy22 · 05-05-2008, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopblock

Mommy22, you specifically said "make love to my husband whenever he wants".

Why do you do this? How did things get to be this way? I have often asserted that the sexiest thing a woman can do in bed is WANT to be there. Clearly, you want to be there, and you are choosing to do so.

You may not like my answer to this one. I've always given him what he wants sexually. However, over the years, he didn't reciprocate in the ways I needed him. He (admittedly) neglected my needs. We both had to hit rock bottom in our relationship to selflessly REALLY DESIRE to please one another. It took a serious wake-up call for us both. As diffilcult as the process has been, I'm so thankful for it because we love each other with a much deeper love than we could've ever imagined. We're still in the recovery stage, but we have the communication that I have longed for. We're genuinely excited about our future together. So yes, I really WANT to be in bed next to him now!

draconis · 05-05-2008, 09:07 AM

I can only think you mean Pumice stones which are used for pedicures & to remove calluses.

IMHO it means more of why she thinks you are doing it. If you are doing it "just to get her to sleep with you" then yeah I could see why it really doesn't matter.

Communication is only good when you connect with the person you talk to. Everyone is different and there are many different ways to communicate a point to them.

If your SO isn't having sex with you then chances are it is either medical or something deep seated that hasn't been communicated normally because that person doesn't feel comfortable talking about the subject.

Everything seems to boil down to the same point, everything else "seems" good except sex. At this point I think you need to look again at your relationship and see if it is really problem free or if there is a true problem there, because I think there is.

But my point was and is that your problem is unique to you, and that you can't paint all women with a broad brush. Every person is different.

draconis

draconis · 05-05-2008, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mommy22

We both had to hit rock bottom in our relationship to selflessly REALLY DESIRE to please one another.

Well said that you really desire to please one another and that it is a selfless act in doing so. While I can't say my wife always is ready to be with me, if she says that she is tired I know she is. She averages 5 hour of sleep per day during her week. She also has some kidney problems so that can be an issue, but I know if she says something it is fact. I don't have to have sex with the wife though, I enjoy anytime I can spend with her no matter what we are doing.

Chopblock · 05-05-2008, 09:54 AM

I read 3 or 4 posts from men having the same problem, and several more from women who "are" the problem. That is enough to prove the problem is not unique to me. Add to that the people responding saying "this happens to me too" and the responses/threads from other forums all about the same thing allow me to say this problem is NOT unique. While I understand I generalize sometimes, let us not pretend that I am also the only one with a problem, or that my gf is the only woman acting this way.

You are right about the pumice, but most men still have no idea what it is and what its for. Even those that do (perhaps they see the stone in the shower) are not all offering to do that for their partners.

Now I completely understand, and have explored before the point you made about "why are you doing this". I know that starting out with the mindset "if I give her a bath and a gift and pamper her, she'll sleep with me" is setting oneself up for failure.

At the same time though, even if I'm doing it to be nice and expecting nothing in return, there is a difference between expecting and hoping. Making it conditional is not going to get me anywhere. However, I don't think its completely unfair for me to hope that if I make an effort in certain areas, I will be rewarded in other areas. Isn't that what some of this is about: "I want you to be happier so I will make an effort to meet these needs".

I have considered that to some degree, she believes my only motivation for doing <thing> is to get some -- this is also not unique as evidenced by posts on this forum and others. But consider the fact that I am STILL doing these nice things despite not getting any sex. I believe to some degree that should prove authenticity of the idea: if I was only doing this to get sex, I'd have given up long ago. Even she has to realize that with a year being a stones throw away, it just isn't worth the effort if all I want is something I'm not getting.

I am 99% sure it is not medical. Again, throwing me a bone would be nice, but I've ruled that situation out. I'd like to believe that if it was medical, that using that as an excuse would be a much better deterrent. "I'm not in the mood" implies that were she in the mood, <thing> would happen. But: "every time I do <thing> I am in a ton of pain" is much more absolute.

And if it is a medical problem and she can't admit that to me.... well then what does that say about her willingness to communicate? I'm here drowning in doubt, working my butt off to please her; but she can't fill me in on a piece of information that would shed light on a major problem?

As to the "everything is great but..." type of stance. There is no relationship that is problem free, and I never said mine was problem free. What I object to is the lack of teamwork on solving, or getting to the root of what is a major problem in an otherwise fine relationship. We can communicate about so many other things, we have common interests, we can exist together. Again, the actions of love are there to back up the words.

Swedish, you make a good point. FYI, I ALWAYS take care of her first, so at the very least she is getting something out of it too. The way you phrased it though: essentially the desire for the benefit has to outweigh the stigma, may very well be the be all end all of the problem.

I accept that women view it differently than men. Fine. However I still believe that every day that goes by without, is a day we did things "her way". In a he wants/she doesn't want situation, the compromise can only be "you get your way sometimes, I get my way sometimes". Thats fine as long as its equitable. I don't think "my way for 8 months, your way for 30 mins" is equitable.

Guess we'll see. I have one more question I may post in a follow up thread so as not to hijack this one.

swedish · 05-05-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopblock

I accept that women view it differently than men. Fine. However I still believe that every day that goes by without, is a day we did things "her way". In a he wants/she doesn't want situation, the compromise can only be "you get your way sometimes, I get my way sometimes". Thats fine as long as its equitable. I don't think "my way for 8 months, your way for 30 mins" is equitable.

I think the compromise can work well when sex drives are different, but when one is non-existent the only sex you would get would be without her wanting it, and I don't think that would work for either of you long term. When I say I think men/women view it differently, I was thinking more along the lines of whether or not she really understands how no sex at all is affecting you. If she has no drive at the moment, she may not realize how this is making you feel. As I've posted somewhere before, I have friends who've been married 20+ years and joke about how their husbands don't 'get any' and I really don't think they have a clue how their husbands probably feel about this.

Chopblock · 05-05-2008, 11:56 AM

"I have friends who've been married 20+ years and joke about how their husbands don't 'get any' and I really don't think they have a clue how their husbands probably feel about this."

Yeah, and this is totally not where I want to end up. If she is joking about how "funny" it is to starve me for sex, then she KNOWS what she is doing.

I would wager quite confidently that those husbands are cheating though, and whenever she laughs about how she is starving him, he thinks "thats why I'm ordering from another menu".

However, I refuse to believe that she DOESN'T know. I have made it crystal clear. I can only conclude that it isn't important enough to her, and even I'm unsure how much longer I'm going to wait.

Cindy · 05-16-2008, 03:13 PM

I would think the fact that a woman would joke about starving her husband sex is a HUGE indicator that she DOESN'T know the impact of what she's doing. Seriously, we, as women, are not so much cold hearted as we are clueless in that area! We aren't given the rule book at birth, ya know!

I'm here to tell you, she doesn't know the impact and if you really believed that of her, what are you still doing there?

Evidently, this woman can go a year without sex. What makes you think a person that can deny THEMSELVES for that long, could possibly KNOW what they are doing to you?

Secondly, I have to be honest with you, at one point, while I'm reading your posts, I think "man, I would hate to be that guy's gf, she can't do anything right! She can't have a thought or make a statement without him suspecting her of some devious plan to mess with his head." Then I read about how you're just shy of a year on not gettin' any lovin' and I really feel bad for you.

I don't think it's your communication or lack of romance or overly blunt ways of making a point at times

, I think it might be a clue. First, and I've touched on this before with you, it might be her past. Second, if not, it's a major CLUE that you should probably break up. That's just how I see it. A month is too long to go without, dude, a year is ridiculous!

draconis · 05-16-2008, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopblock

"I have friends who've been married 20+ years and joke about how their husbands don't 'get any' and I really don't think they have a clue how their husbands probably feel about this."

Yeah, and this is totally not where I want to end up. If she is joking about how "funny" it is to starve me for sex, then she KNOWS what she is doing.

I would wager quite confidently that those husbands are cheating though, and whenever she laughs about how she is starving him, he thinks "thats why I'm ordering from another menu".

However, I refuse to believe that she DOESN'T know. I have made it crystal clear. I can only conclude that it isn't important enough to her, and even I'm unsure how much longer I'm going to wait.

If Sex is so important to you and for your relationship why are you still with her?

draconis

mommy22 · 05-17-2008, 06:43 PM

The upside to all this is you're not bound by marriage, there are no children involved (are there?), no binding ties. If you're not happy, now is your chance to get out. You don't want to take any serious steps when you're having such doubts on the front end. I guess what you have to ask yourself is "Do I want to spend the rest of my life with this woman with things the way they are now?" If your answer to that question is "no", then you're wasting your time. Ultimately, the reason most people date someone seriously is the intent for a lifelong commitment. You don't want to invest yourself in something that will only bring you bitterness and unhappiness.

Chris H. · 05-17-2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopblock

I read 3 or 4 posts from men having the same problem, and several more from women who "are" the problem. That is enough to prove the problem is not unique to me. Add to that the people responding saying "this happens to me too" and the responses/threads from other forums all about the same thing allow me to say this problem is NOT unique. While I understand I generalize sometimes, let us not pretend that I am also the only one with a problem, or that my gf is the only woman acting this way.

Chopblock,

I know I'm a little behind in responding to this, but the reason I care about this issue so much is because I don't want people who visit the site to be offended by sexist statements.

The fact is, I don't really care if you did a comprehensive research study on the matter and found that 99.9% of all people felt that "women are the problem" in these situations - I'm going to stand up for the .1% who didn't because I don't want them to be offended by it. It's a sexist generalization, and it's goes against the forum guidelines:

Posting Guidelines - Forum Rules

#1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect.

When we make broad generalizations about the other sex, or any group of people for that matter, it tends to offend people, and I feel it's disrespectful.

Granted, your threads don't seem to have offended any of the people posting, that's why I've been gentle about "suggesting" to you not to generalize a few times. The people I worry about just as much though, are the hundreds lurking on this site at any given time (see "currently active users" at the bottom of the homepage). Not everyone in this world will tell you when you have offended them.

Since you keep defending this point of view, I'm going to say that we can agree to disagree. But you should also know that I'm not going to allow that type of stuff on the site. So next time you think about creating a thread entitled, "Re: Do women really want what they want?" Change it to "Does my wife really want what she wants?" or it's going to be deleted.

Chris Hartwell

juls · 05-19-2008, 06:09 AM

Sorry I disagree, I am a mod on a forum where this subject is spoke about ALOT. I am a woman and by telling ths poster he will be deleted for bringing it out into the open further makes him feel like he is wrong for having intimacy needs. I won't be back. I know, probably won't be missed, but this kind of "screening" is wrong...

He came here looking for ways to understand why his wife is withholding and there are tons of wives out there just like his so yes the stereotype exists for a reason. Stereotypes suck yes, but as it is they are still there. I don't see anyone saying anything to a few of the women posters who consistantly slam "men only" about porn and affiars. Is it that only men commit these acts. Blah whatever.