Chopblock

I have always wondered how true the following statement is, and where the line is. A friend who treated her boyfriend really poorly once described the relationship as follows:

"I left him.... yeah, I, left HIM, because after I had him at the point where I could do WHATEVER I wanted, knowing that if he ever tried to do the same thing I could just be loud/disagreeable enough that he'd decide it wasn't worth it, I realized I didn't respect him anymore"

OK I know its nice to give your partner what she wants, but women at what point do you view him as "a doormat"?

Men constantly deal with the following internal paradox: "If I don't give her what she wants, she'll give me hell, but if I always give her what she wants, she'll get bored, and leave/cheat".

I have heard many women say they want a man who is giving, but also "doesn't let them get away with everything". I realize in my own case how many times I have bent over backwards. While I do pick my battles, and while I have stood firm in many many cases, I can see times where instead of saying "you must be joking if you think I'll tolerate this" I just buckled and did whatever unreasonable thing she wanted.

There are times I wonder if some of our problems are caused by these cases. She certainly loves the benefits of having me (my love and care, the house, the car, the cooking...) but if we aren't having sex because she just doesn't see me as a man anymore.

That hurts me a lot because I felt like she chose to be unreasonable and demanding all those times when she wanted something, and how horribly unfair it is that when I gave it to her, she only respected me less.

So ladies: when do you lose respect for your man on this matter?

swedish

In my attempt to better understand men, I recently read an interesting book that speaks of this very thing...it's geared towards women "It's a Guy Thing, An Owner's Manual for Women" by David Deida...'For cultural reasons in the last 30 years or so men have expressed a more feminine persona...both partners end up feeling dissatisfied with this kind of relationship, even though they feel safe. The man will be too passive for his woman and the woman will be too directive for her man. It isn't emotionally or sexually satisfying to either partner....a man with less masculine energy won't be able to fulfill your deep desires in intimacy, though he will feel quite safe to you." I think what he was getting at here (there's a lot before and after that explains the masculine/feminine energies) is that if a relationship gets out of balance...she says "Take out the garbage" and he just does it to avoid conflict...she is in the masculine and he in the feminine and it's a turn-off for both. Sort of like if a woman sees a cockroach and screams and instead of her man getting rid of it, he screams too. Like everything else, I guess it just needs to be balanced. When you start compromising your own beliefs just to please her but don't feel you are getting that in return, it's off-balance and you can begin to feel resentment & she may look at you differently. Women are attracted to a man's confidence of his direction in life. It sounds as though you already have that and are loving towards her, so I'm not even sure what you could do differently at this point especially if she will not open up about the issues that are really bothering you.

Chopblock

We had a stupid argument a few days ago, and I let her get away with saying some things she shouldn't. I think I handled it better in other ways (much less angry, not pouting) and it was over pretty quickly.

I really want to be "the man" though. I mean yeah, I can lift stuff she'd never be able to, and I make most of the money (though quite frankly I don't want that to be my only plus) but there are other "manly" things I wish I was just..... more of.

I mean, I can't master that "oh you're mad, whatever, see ya when you calm down" thing. She seems to be able to switch off like a light when she is mad and be totally cold. I can't do that, I fester and feel bad and guilty. It may very well hurt her to do what she does, but in my mind, I believe she is cold at that point and I aim to rob her of this power.

I've done it on a few occasions, and its had incredible results. Once, she was being a total cow on the phone, and told me she didn't have time to argue. I said "fine" and hung up. 2 mins... I'm not kidding TWO MINUTES later, she called and her tone was TOTALLY different.

I say to myself "dude... it WORKS, just DO IT" but I also fear that being too cold is going to push her away.

Anyways, I've posted a dozen times about not wanting to be the "big brother". I don't mind being a bit feminine at times and showing my feelings, but I don't want to be a "girlfriend with a penis". This isn't a "macho ego" thing, this is an "if she doesn't see me as a man, she'll seek out a real man" thing.

In reclaiming power though, I don't want to go overboard and be a total chauvinist. I just don't want anymore of these "do as I say not as I do" type of cases where its OK for her to <action> but when I do the same <action> its wrong.

mollyL

The one word I saw nearly totally lacking in your post is "love". Do you guys still love each other? Did you ever love each other? It sounds as if you are describing a battle plan and not the state of your marriage. Did you guys wound each other that badly, or were you both wounded when you got together? I don't think it can be a very happy home you two live in, and if you have kids, it's doubly unhappy. Both of you need therapy, as a couple, and for each of you. You can either learn to love each other as spouses, or you can hate each other as exes.

swedish

I really think being in a sexless relationship just fuels everything else. I can see why you are frustrated and if you had regular physical intimacy, the little annoyances would be much easier to deal with.

I have several friends who've been married 20+ years and say they aren't interested in sex or 'he's not gettin' any...haha' and it does make me wonder because their husbands work all day, shuffle the kids from this sport to that coaching their teams, etc. how they deal with it. My husband couldn't, and I couldn't.

I wish I had the foresight to resolve issues before I married the first time around, because they don't just magically go away once you are married, they usually get worse.

I hope she sees the depth of how this is affecting you...the book I listed above gave me some insight on men's sexual needs. I think there are many women that just don't understand how important it is for men, because they have a low/no sex drive themselves so cannot relate.

Chopblock

I may not have mentioned it on this post, but I know (Molly) you've been present on other posts where I clearly state I love her a lot.

As should be evident by now, I am truly striving to understand the reasons behind WHY she is not interested in sex. I believe the biggest is image, and that is being worked on now.

However, if its resent over some unmet need, I need to know WHAT that need is. If its not seeing me as a man, I need to fix that.

And while yes, the lack of sex is one major motivator, this isn't just about "what can I do to get some action?" I believe positive change spills over into ALL areas of a relationship. We don't have a "bad" relationship per se. We do things together, do things for each other, and have a good connection.

Our fights, while irritating, have never turned into multi-day, non-speaking, suitcase packing wars. Things are usually resolved within 24 hours, if not 12, and I work to make sure that said resolution comes about from mutual communication, not one of us caving.

Chopblock

Let me ask the question a different way using an example that happened to a friend. He was camping with a friend about 200 miles away who he hadn't seen in ages and planned this for months. She locked herself out of the car. He was only going to be gone that one night but she called and asked him if he'd come home now because he had the 2nd key. She begged him, but he felt it was unreasonable and unfeasible. She hung up and pouted for 3 days.

I side with him 100% here. She didn't need the car for anything important, it was a minor inconvenience.

So ladies, when you are asking for something completely unreasonable, like the above:

1) How do you feel when your man says "you are being unreasonable and selfish and I'm not going to put up with it"

2) How do you feel when after him pleading his case, he finally caves, and has to rearrange plans and probably inconvenience several people to give you what you want.

3) Lets say YOU believe you are being perfectly reasonable but he doesn't. If he refuses your request, how do you feel?

sweetp101

1. My husband has never said anything like that to me, but if he did I would probably stop and pay attention. Maybe think about what I have asked. Maybe I am being unreasonable.

2. I would never ask him to rearrange something very important to handle something I could do myself.

3. He has very seldom refused the things I want. Its the things that I need that he refuses. Refusing my request has lead to me falling out of love and cheating. And I feel down right resentful.

Chopblock

Thank you so much sweetp101 for the clear answers you give to my questions. Your 3rd answer especially is quite interesting: he doesn't refuse what you "want", he refuses what you "need".

Does he know the difference? I realize these days, there is often little distinction between want and need. What I find odd is that he refuses at all. Do you make the distinction clear? I mean lets say he knows you want the chores done or you want to eat out tonight, and he makes that happen. But the things you need are "more intimate touching and a kiss here and there" which he doesn't make happen.

Is that kind of the realm we are dealing with? Should I be trying to differentiate between things my gf "wants" (trivial stuff like presents, or single wants like chores) and trying to figure out what she "needs" (whatever that may be, since I really believe I fulfill as many of them as I am aware of).

mommy22

It sounds to me like your girlfriend doesn't communicate period. You just need to sit down and ask her what she wants. Tell her you're not trying to play dumb but you want to be able to prioritize her needs. I'm not quite sure why people have such difficulty stating their needs. Are you listening carefully when she tells you what she wants? You don't show any outward signs that you're ignoring her do you? Do you follow through on her requests? If none of this applies, there's no reason for her to leave you in the fog. I don't know, I mean I'm never one who's confrontational, but I have no problem saying, "Honey, what you said hurt my feelings or I need help in the kitchen." (Now, when he ignored what I asked that was a different story.) At the same time, I try to respect his space. If he were 200 miles away on a camping trip, I certainly wouldn't expect him to come home to get me into my locked car. I've always been pretty independent with things like that, though. Years ago, he asked me what kinds of things I find to be romantic. So, I made a list that he could keep. I chose things like "Cooking a nice dinner for us. Picking me flowers. Packing a picnic to eat in the park." Just make sure that if you get a list like this you actually do some of the things on the list from time to time. He never did. It had hurt me that he asked, but didn't follow through. He does now and it means the world to me. Women also LOVE it when you pick up on the little things. For instance, if you hear her say "Oh, I'm tired. I guess I'll get the dishes done in the morning. I'm going to get in the bath." You could win some serious brownie points by doing those dishes. I'm not kidding. That could carry you for several nights!!! (Unless she's just hard to please). I'm pretty open, but a lot of women like to drop hints. Observe carefully and you just might see what she wants, but it certainly can't hurt to ask!

swedish

I agree. It's not so different from initiating sex and being rejected over and over. Eventually, you give up trying and feel as if they just don't love you enough or care enough.

In my first marriage there were a few times (I've always been very independent so rarely ask for things) where I asked my ex to be there for me. One was when I was 5 months pregnant and a test result came out questionable (possible spina bifida)...I asked him to meet me at the Dr. appt because I was a wreck. He never showed...went to his brother's instead. Fortunately, the followup test came out fine. He was relieved and said, oh good, because I couldn't handle a messed up kid like that...you'd need to get an abortion when I was 7 months pregnant, my mom died. The night of her funeral, he invited a buddy over to drink beer and play darts in the garage. When he came inside he looked at me and said 'what's wrong' I said, I'm just upset. It's been a long day and I was just thinking about my mom. He said 'me too. she was like a mother to me' and headed back into the garage. It only takes a few really hurtful situations to make you realize he's just not going to be there for you so you either go it alone or get out and get on with your life.

I guess the better way would have been to say something each time this happened (which I have started doing with my current husband) but I really felt in my heart he would never change and the result would just be opening up only to feel totally shot down again.

Your gf needs to open up and start talking. It seems ridiculous that your only option right now is to scramble around and try various things hoping something will connect with what she needs.

draconis

Chopblock ~ Are you serious with what you post?

1) Don't paint all women with a broad brush for ever woman I have met I have found everyone unique.

2) There isn't a man's role or woman's role anymore other than what is in your own head and household. The fact your wife works proves that. For years my mother out ranked my father in the military and made more money. Even today as a civilian she makes more money. She was the first in the area to break into a "man's" job after OUTSCORING every man to take the test. They even made her retake the test twice not believing the results.

Just because you make more money than your wife it isn't a great thing it just means you find that a form of CONTROL. My wife makes more money than I do for the first time in our ten year marriage and when she is done her PHD she will be making $125 an hour. So does that mean any man not making that type of money is unmanly?

Where does that leave you?

3) Several years ago my health declined, my wife however has always been strong. She moves 75 pound boxes all night and shows up most of the men that work with her, even they have told me this. But she can be just as "womanly" as any other. But if not being as strong or muscle bound as a woman makes you less of a man just how do you stack up to Cory Everson, Jill Mills and the like?

Does that mean you are not a man?

4) You seem to think all women play head games and manipulate. Maybe if you learned how to communicate you'd see that there are better ways to get from point A to Point B without headgames.

There are just as many manipulative, controlling, abusive men as there are women. It is a people thing not a gender thing.

draconis

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berlinlife06

If the kind of women you describe are the ones that see you the same way you see them, then you deserve them. I have the feeling that you put every woman in a general category and complain and make them look like automats that are only following a unique pattern: your idea of women. There's only one thing clear to me: you don't understand women.

Chopblock

""Oh, I'm tired. I guess I'll get the dishes done in the morning. I'm going to get in the bath." You could win some serious brownie points by doing those dishes. I'm not kidding. That could carry you for several nights!!!"

It comes and goes. I'm not dumb and blind, I can see those messages. The harder ones to see are the more cryptic ones that aren't so direct, like "CVS ran out of milanos" actually means she wants to go on vacation.

I think its all stupid mental barriers. Once she convinces herself something is so, then its so and thats that.

"There's only one thing clear to me: you don't understand women."

Sometimes I don't, and women certainly don't make it easy or even seem like they WANT to be understood. When I am being plain and direct, and all I get is double-speak and hidden meanings, I can't help it if there is a misunderstanding. I expect words to stay true to their meanings. I hate being subjected to subtext and telepathy. I hate being expected to know that "a" actually means "f".

Draconis a lot of what you say is like reading a textbook. Things don't work the way they do in testing or theory. To address your points.

1) Its a gross oversimplification to say they are all unique. There will always be commonalities.

2) Your examples were based solely on the professional world, which has vast differences to the personal world. Since tangential evidence seems to hold water with you, I have met several women who assert that "there is no 'woman's work'" and expect to share the chores equally. HOWEVER, they will NOT take out the garbage, they will NOT clean the gutters, they will NOT mow the lawn. I cook and wash dishes too, I have no problem with equitable division (notice that equitable does not always mean equal). What I take issue with is those who want the best of both worlds: the benefit of equality (pay me the same salary) but still the benefits of chivalry (I'm a woman, I shouldn't have to <thing>).

3) Thats great that your wife is stronger than you. My mom has done the same thing, lifting boxes that men couldn't lift. But picking paradigms isn't going to make a point either. Example: I may not stack up to Cory whoever or Jill whatever, but how do THEY stack up against the strongest men in their categories? I get what you are trying to say, but your example doesn't do it justice.

4) I get fed up with always being accused of being a poor communicator. I make my statements and intentions very clear by communicating them as such. I do not have a hidden agenda in my relationship, it is all clear and on the table. My actions support my feelings. Consistency, transparency, its all there.

I would accept the idea that our communication STYLES are different, and that there could be better crosswalking in that manner. However to flat out say that I must be a bad communicator is a crock. You need to accept the strengths not write one off. It would be like choosing an escalade over a porsche because of the porsche's small size. If thats what you want, thats one thing: but it doesn't mean the porsche is a bad car.

Chris H.

Chopblock,

It sounds like you're trying to talk about your own personal problems with one or more women in your life, but you're doing it in a way that makes it sound like women in general are all like the ones in your life.

You might be better off just speaking about the ones you have experience with, and it won't offend anyone else. You'll probably get better feedback that way.

Best of luck,

Chris

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