Are you willing to have conflict in order to actually make your marriage better? If so, you CAN make your marriage better, if not your marriage will slowly spiral into the drain.
If you ARE willing to have conflict, which is going to feel VERY uncomfortable to you at first, I can give you some very specific steps to take. If not, I have no way to help you.
By the way - I have a small but steady amount of civilized conflict (all verbal - no screaming - no cursing - no hateful personal attacks) with my W. I also have a marriage that is super loving and super sexual, affectionate, playful and fun.
I am going to warn you - you have slowly turned your wife into a very selfish person who is also an emotional bully (even though that is not obvious to you at this point). She is going to FREAK if you begin truly enforcing some personal boundaries like insisting she stay within a budget. But she will ONLY freak for a couple of months if you stay firm. And after that things will improve.
No offence but "going to the movies" while she continues to slowly spend you into bankruptcy is not what I mean by enforcing your boundaries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by father-of-3
Thanks for all of your thoughts. I knew I would receive some that would bruise a little and others that would be theraputic. More self time is what I am starting with first. Too long has gone by since I have set aside time for me -- I am a sacrificer by nature and that only has return early in relationships apparently. I've already treated myself for a relaxing massage and a movie is in the works in the next days to come. I'm planning on going to see "Inception".
I think you are onto something. Some of the steps I have already taken like setting aside time to go to the gym and following up with it was at first met with no less than a surprised / annoyed gasp from my wife. It would seem that me having not taken a firm and steady stand on issues like time management/sharing, finances, and clear expectations of what and how often things go on in the bedroom have simply left her to do as she pleases. I am now realizing that this has as you hinted emboldened my wife to cross way too far towards the bitter, self-entitlement, and non-reciprocating side. Presently she does not see an issue with not part-taking in any form of give and take. The take part seems to be all good, but that leaves the other party starved. I am trying to speak to her in her love language, which is to complement her and to throw new and fresh opportunities to do things her way. But in return I am getting complete silence and inaction. What makes it hard is that my wife does not like confrontation. That is straight from her lips. When asked if she could sit down with me from day to day and share anything that is bothering her, she tells me that she is not comfortable doing that because she feels that is confrontational and would only bring it up if it REALLY bothered her -- i.e. sit on it until a major flare up takes place. This I find really unhealthy for any marriage because there is little room to learn gently along the way from explosive verbal arguments.
Your notion is very intriguing because I think back on the early years of our marriage and do clearly see that when rules were clearly defined, they were more often than not followed by both of us.
First - I try to keep things simple by focusing on 3 things: time, money and love. With that said A couple suggestions:
- Stop initiating "loving" gestures. When she initiates, you respond. If she doesn't initiate for a while that is ok. Telling her unprompted that you love her, she is pretty, etc. on a regular basis when she is treating you badly conveys that you are ok with how she is treating you. If she says it first and you respond - that is different. It means you love her - but generally if you don't initiate that sends a strong message and one she needs to hear at this point. When you go into "respond only" mode it signals that yes you love her, but don't really love how she is behaving.
- Pick a time to review the budget - give yourselves an hour - do your homework. Have a couple examples of her over spending with you - but don't take them out unless you need to. The goal needs to be to get her to commit to sticking with spending limits. And those limits need to allow you to save some money. It is crazy to live "at your income" you will never be able to retire. Be totally calm - and be sympathetic. It is ok if she is frustrated when she cannot buy a $250 swimsuit but impulse control is part of being a grownup.
My W was a SAHM wife also and mostly she was very good with money. A couple times when she wanted to do stuff that we simply could not afford I said "I am truly sorry we cannot afford that at this point in our life. If it really is something you cannot live without, you can get a job working weekends and I will watch the kids. And you may use your "after tax, after expenses" income from that job to fund this item."
Turned out that nothing was ever worth that much effort.
As for conflict - my W used to get frustrated watching me do something. Eventually she would get angry and say "I hate it when you do X." Over time I taught her to do something different which is to simply suggest what she "does" want the first time she sees the behavior. So now she says "the next time X happens, I would prefer if you would do Y" and I almost always say "sure". This isn't "conflict" it is communication. If your W isn't willing to do that - stop worrying about what she likes/dislikes and use your best judgement. YOU are not responsible for reading her mind.
As for sex - difficult subject - this is what I have found. I avoid all the obvious turn offs. Women are turned off by guys who:
- Are overly emotional
- Are whiny
- Are easily intimidated by the Woman - EVEN when they both know she is in the wrong
- Can be fooled by illogical/contradictory arguments
- Cannot tolerate her being angry at him - has to try to "make peace" even at the expense of his balls, spine or sanity
- Are unable to assert their boundaries - cannot say and mean "that is unacceptable to me"
- Convey negative emotions via facial expression, body language and then refuse to answer when asked why they are upset. If you cannot hide the fact you are upset - then you are obligated to say what is bothering you when she asks.
- Have a "victim" mindset
As for the financial piece of this:
- If you say "I am really upset that you spent X" = whiny
- If you say "You need to make up for the overspend during the next two months, if you don't we are tearing up the credit cards/bank cards and I will provide you a fixed amount of cash per week". THIS is being assertive and enforcing YOUR boundaries. For instance I imagine one boundary you have as a person is that you would not allow someone else to gradually put you into bankruptcy. That is having boundaries - not being controlling. It only becomes controlling if you prevent her from working (part time) AND unreasonably limit her spending.
Quote:
Originally Posted by father-of-3
I think you are onto something. Some of the steps I have already taken like setting aside time to go to the gym and following up with it was at first met with no less than a surprised / annoyed gasp from my wife. It would seem that me having not taken a firm and steady stand on issues like time management/sharing, finances, and clear expectations of what and how often things go on in the bedroom have simply left her to do as she pleases. I am now realizing that this has as you hinted emboldened my wife to cross way too far towards the bitter, self-entitlement, and non-reciprocating side. Presently she does not see an issue with not part-taking in any form of give and take. The take part seems to be all good, but that leaves the other party starved. I am trying to speak to her in her love language, which is to complement her and to throw new and fresh opportunities to do things her way. But in return I am getting complete silence and inaction. What makes it hard is that my wife does not like confrontation. That is straight from her lips. When asked if she could sit down with me from day to day and share anything that is bothering her, she tells me that she is not comfortable doing that because she feels that is confrontational and would only bring it up if it REALLY bothered her -- i.e. sit on it until a major flare up takes place. This I find really unhealthy for any marriage because there is little room to learn gently along the way from explosive verbal arguments.
Your notion is very intriguing because I think back on the early years of our marriage and do clearly see that when rules were clearly defined, they were more often than not followed by both of us.
SS,
That is very kind. I credit my W for patiently, relentlessly and lovingly, sand blasting (without any anesthesia) my rough edges and helping me grow as a person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seeking sanity
In all sincerity, MEM is the man we should all aspire to be.
Willow,
You are very kind. My father taught me how to be a "man" in a work environment. But he didn't understand women very well - he got on fine with my mom because she was pretty easy to deal with. My W taught me how to be a man in a marriage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willow
Or for the girls, the man we should all have the great fortune to be married to...!
In all sincerity, MEM is the man we should all aspire to be.
MEM has figured his wife out. MEMs wife responds to his methodologies. His advice is priceless, but it might not work everytime for every situation. I think it depends on how independenty minded a woman is, how stubborn and most importantly, how much respect she has for her husband.
I read every post he makes diligently and have applied many of his techniques.
OD,
Totally agree with the point on respect. And my experience with that has been that like anyone I do a mix of "earning" it by behaving in a manner worthy of respect and "demanding" it by showing intolerance for other's bad behavior.
For instance I have taught my wife a little technique that we find to be very effective. When visiting family - hers or mine - I noticed a lot of fairly extreme interrupting going on. One of us would be talking (and neither my W nor I are long winded) and someone else in the family would start talking over us as if we weren't there. So when that happens - she and I both briefly glance at the person who interrupted and then resume what we were saying to each other while making continuous eye contact with each other. If the other person raises their voice I slowly move closer to my W and start to orient my body so that I am beginning to face away from the interrupter.
Turns out that if you do that 2-3 times in a row almost anyone will stop interrupting and will in general be more respectful. I am sure there are plenty of other ways to do this - but THIS way conveys a few messages. 1. Your W sees you not tolerating blatantly disrespectful behavior to EITHER OF YOU. Half the time she was the one being interrupted. 2. She sees you modify other peoples behavior quickly and effectively. 3. She perceives the value/power in the two of us acting in concert to achieve a common goal.
And ummm - you know that bad habit my W had of interrupting me when the two of us are in our own home. Well how much more aware of that do you think she is after a week with our relatives?
As for how independently minded a woman is - LOL - ROTFL. I swear to God this is true - when we got engaged and I realized what a Tiger I was marrying I rented "The Taming of the Shrew" from Blockbuster. We sat down and watched it together. She thought it quite amusing. When it was over I turned and quietly stared at her - hoping to initiate the process of taming MY shrew via a little stare down intimidation. And she gave me this wicked smile and said "Give it your best shot."
Quote:
Originally Posted by okeydokie
MEM has figured his wife out. MEMs wife responds to his methodologies. His advice is priceless, but it might not work everytime for every situation. I think it depends on how independenty minded a woman is, how stubborn and most importantly, how much respect she has for her husband.
I read every post he makes diligently and have applied many of his techniques.
Listen, MEM is the man- Do follow his advice. Very well worth a try, or you will know when to move on.
I have not read all of these posts, but I know that I could be considered something like your wife, (not nearly as spoiled financially-darn!) But I was spoiled in just about every other way imaginable - from a good loving "too nice" , willing to do anything for me husband, and I took him for granted for many many years- shamefully. I always loved him, never doubted that, but he never demanded to be treated better, he just let me get away with a bad attitute, less sex than he desired, I even had the kids sleeping with us. He was , by nature, "Mr. Sacrificial".
Your wife seriously needs to realize what she stands TO LOOSE, the gravity of the situation - because YOU DESERVE so much better! She may not like this change, and try to manipulate you back into being her pawn. Don't let it happen. Until she can respect you and your needs, she NEEDS to be put on the Back burner in all ways. Stand up for yourself, show some selfishness (in comparison to your normal unselfish ways)! This could just do the trick, could revive some passion she may not even realize is there. I feel this is your best stategy.
Those types of people are just unhappy with themselves, always WANTING someone else to make them happy, It really is sad those who need others to make them feel happy, they will never be until they like themselves and are comfortable with themselves...some of you have gone above and beyond trying to make your wives or husbands happy..bottomline is, they don't know what happy is..and it sucks for you because what they seek, doesn't exist...I never bought my wife anything or remembered dates or stuff like that and she was still ungrateful..and she is still unhappy on her own..so what is love to a woman?...who cares!
I wish someone would explain this post to me. Why he thinks he is saying something. Why his wife is so terrible for being ungrateful that he never did anything for her. And why the next poster high-fived him.
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Father-of-3, did you ask your wife why she no longer loves you? You post a question like this on a marriage forum and receive all kinds of responses, mostly from men in your same position, who are all too ready to bash their wives and womankind. But why not ask your wife? There lies the only possible person who can give you an answer. You sound great on the surface as you tell us of all the wonderful things you do, but no one seems to notice your contradictions. Therefore, we can't possibly know all the things you are not telling us. Only your wife can know those.
A couple examples:
1) Her not being interested in sex anymore. Now, I guess you will tell us what a wonderful lover you are, but a woman does not turn away from a wonderful lover. She does not turn away from a man who treats her well. She turns away from a man who does not satisfy her in bed, or she turns away from one who treats her badly and unkindly. So who is the innocent victim here?
2) You tell us you make the money and never play the money card. Then you say........
Quote:
Originally Posted by father-of-3
Money wise, I take a hit every month going deeper into debt.
........If it isn't YOUR money, how is it only you who takes the hit? Was it not the family budget that took the hit? Did you reveal a little more with that statement than you intended?
3) Like one of the other posters, I also wonder why she is supposed to grateful that you get along with her family.
4) Kind gestures and open displays of love and affection are not rejected when extended from a loving husband. So what went on prior to your loving touch and request for a kiss? What here are you not telling us?
If your wife is bored and taking you for granted because you're too nice or too laid back, then maybe some of the advice you received to ignore and manipulate her are in order. Yes, perhaps those will work. But, if you succeeded to destroy your wife's love by not being the Mr. Wonderful you make yourself out to be to us, then none of that will work, and you have a lot of making up and changing your ways to do.
I think your observations are great for discussion. I've answered them inline below. For certain I have no interest in bobble heads patting me on the back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan2010
I wish someone would explain this post to me. Why he thinks he is saying something. Why his wife is so terrible for being ungrateful that he never did anything for her. And why the next poster high-fived him.
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Father-of-3, did you ask your wife why she no longer loves you? You post a question like this on a marriage forum and receive all kinds of responses, mostly from men in your same position, who are all too ready to bash their wives and womankind. But why not ask your wife? There lies the only possible person who can give you an answer. You sound great on the surface as you tell us of all the wonderful things you do, but no one seems to notice your contradictions. Therefore, we can't possibly know all the things you are not telling us. Only your wife can know those.
A couple examples:
1) Her not being interested in sex anymore. Now, I guess you will tell us what a wonderful lover you are, but a woman does not turn away from a wonderful lover. She does not turn away from a man who treats her well. She turns away from a man who does not satisfy her in bed, or she turns away from one who treats her badly and unkindly. So who is the innocent victim here?
>>> I make no assertion about my manhood. I disagree with both your comments above. More likely, a woman turns away a man who treats her in a way that is not a good fit for where she is in her own life. Maybe being satisfying and/or treated well is not what is high on the ladder of importance at this time. To answer you directly, yes I did ask my wife why she does not want to be intimate. It's not what she needs right now. And she does not know why.
2) You tell us you make the money and never play the money card. Then you say........
........If it isn't YOUR money, how is it only you who takes the hit? Was it not the family budget that took the hit? Did you reveal a little more with that statement than you intended?
>>> Here I really bite my tongue answering. But for fairness sake I lay it all on the table. I have no intention to play bait. Each household has one or two responsible parties who make sure that bills are paid on time, that luxuries are fairly distributed among children & spouses, and living in general stays within projected financial means. Now when one party opts out of such a responsibility, then the other party carries the burden. Yes, one could just give up and go through irresponsible bankrupcy, let the fabric of family dissolve, but that is not my personal life endeavor. In my marriage case, I have this burden, even after repeated and ongoing efforts to reduce them with the help of my wife. So yes, with each unexpected and extravagant expense by the wife, the family budget takes a hit. Now using your insinuation, I suppose I could tell the kids that school supplied in the fall just aren't in the works anymore. But since I am a responsible father, I choose to make the extra sacrifices to make up the difference. I do this not in place of reeling the wife in, but in addition to. Life is always simpler with no kids when one can walk away from difficult problems at any time. Children require better anchors and I am not one to screw up their lives just because mine is not a textbook fairy tale. I suppose that is my long-winded reply that I disagree.
3) Like one of the other posters, I also wonder why she is supposed to grateful that you get along with her family.
Here I do not expect any pats on the back. I simply enjoy the company of quality people whom I find it easy to exchange stories and ideas about gardening, airplanes, biking, etc... If they happen to be in-laws, so be it. I like my neighbors too by the way.
4) Kind gestures and open displays of love and affection are not rejected when extended from a loving husband. So what went on prior to your loving touch and request for a kiss? What here are you not telling us?
>>> I actually took time to pick out the specific incident. It was one where the mini golf occassion was really fun with her and the kids. For some odd reason, other couples with and without childrean would hold hands, laugh, and even peck each others cheeks. Can you believe that??? So it only felt natural, but only ended up being more salt on the wound.
If your wife is bored and taking you for granted because you're too nice or too laid back, then maybe some of the advice you received to ignore and manipulate her are in order. Yes, perhaps those will work. But, if you succeeded to destroy your wife's love by not being the Mr. Wonderful you make yourself out to be to us, then none of that will work, and you have a lot of making up and changing your ways to do.
>>> Here's the thing -- I finally came to terms that I am not responsible for either of her happiness or her sex drive. I am rediscovering that I am able to be happy, in fact excited about life, my kids, interests I have let become dusty far too long, and my future whether my wife partakes in it or not. I certainly would love for her to be there on the journey with me. But I now know that even without her, I can be happy and balanced. It is just different happiness, but happiness nonetheless. A lot of people are left in life with less in my humble oppinion.
F3,
Your post below was very good. As the sole breadwinner for our family of 5, W plus 3 kids I took exception to Susan being critical of your choice of words (your wallet instead of the families). While I agree you could have used "her" suggested wording she ignored the three objective facts that you laid on the table:
- Your "family" expenses exceed your net income (huge problem)
- Your W indulges herself in expensive luxuries - 250 bathing suit is ok IF you are meeting all your saving goals and IF it fits with the discretionary income she has to spend. Clearly neither is true.
- Your discretionary spending is WAY less than your wifes
I really like how you tied this back to the KIDS and their school supplies - good father - good priorities. I do however see a troubling contradiction here. Why is it your W doesn't want to hold your hand, and has totally deprioritized sex - and YET - she is spending serious money to look HOT in a bathing suit. Very odd.
I come back to the big 3 - time, money, love.
1. Most men cannot experience real marital love without a sufficient amount of sex.
2. Your W has arranged her/your life so that when you factor in your job, you have a fair amount LESS free time than she does.
3. She is spending money that should be going to the children or to savings or to the occasional treat for the guy busting his hump to fund everything.....
I commend you for finding a way to be happy without her assistance. I do have a question though. Will you really continue to tolerate this level of disrespect for you, your marriage and your kids on a go forward basis?
I say this one thing with utter certainty - until you regain your wifes respect there is zero chance she will love you.
Everything I have posted here - and elsewhere on this board is based on my observations about my own marriage or other marriages that I have a close window into.
With that said I HATE having conflict with my W. She is tough, and smart and persistent/sometimes stubborn. She is strong willed and 1-2 days a month is capable of being mean. And yet I NEVER shy away from conflict with her. Because we have this beautiful balance of power - I have a healthy fear of her and SHE has a healthy fear of me. And the result is a lot of love, a lot of passion and virtually unlimited mating privileges.
Didn't mean to go on for so long - but you seem like a very smart guy. I think you can fix what is broken if you are determined enough. Your primary issue is not going to have anything to do with brainpower - it is going to all come down to one single question. How much conflict and tension are you willing to have with your W?
Quote:
Originally Posted by father-of-3
I think your observations are great for discussion. I've answered them inline below. For certain I have no interest in bobble heads patting me on the back.
>>> Here's the thing -- I finally came to terms that I am not responsible for either of her happiness or her sex drive. I am rediscovering that I am able to be happy, in fact excited about life, my kids, interests I have let become dusty far too long, and my future whether my wife partakes in it or not. I certainly would love for her to be there on the journey with me. But I now know that even without her, I can be happy and balanced. It is just different happiness, but happiness nonetheless. A lot of people are left in life with less in my humble oppinion.
You addressed my observations, but you didn't answer any of them. Not one. You did toot your horn quite a bit.....again.
This is what I'm saying: Your wife has checked out of the marriage. She is displaying the signs of the walk-away-wife. That does not happen for no reason and does not happen in healthy relationships. Maybe she is and maybe she is not preparing to leave, but she has surely checked out, and it sounds like she's trying to pacify unhappiness with purchases. It may be easy for you to say and whoever of the other men who said you are not responsible for her happiness, but you certainly cannot say you are not responsible for her unhappiness. Your woman is telling you in no uncertain terms that you have made her unhappy.
Your wife does not want to be bothered with you. She does not want you even touching her. She does not care for your public displays of affection, even though everyone else is doing it. I do not know why it makes sense to you to rationalize a peck on the cheek is not something she needs right now. But hey, if it makes sense to you . . .
So, you take these guys' advice to manipulate and ignore your wife with no idea of how she feels or why she feels it. "I have not been meeting her needs, so I will just disregard and find other things to do." Very easy to look anywhere else if it helps you avoid looking at yourself.
If you are truly concerned about your children, you will find out what is going on with your wife and why she does not love you anymore. Marriage counseling should help with that. There is also MarriageBuilders.com, to help you discover what went wrong and walk you through rebuilding your relationship with your wife.
Re: What is love to a woman? 
..bottomline is, they don't know what happy is
..and it sucks for you because what they seek, doesn't exist...I never bought my wife anything or remembered dates or stuff like that and she was still ungrateful
..and she is still unhappy on her own
