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on understanding

7K views 81 replies 15 participants last post by  credamdóchasgra 
#1 ·
I think I identified one factor in why some of the thoughts of the male posters in the Men's Clubhouse irritate me. It has been on my mind in the context of my life.

One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.) I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?

My husband sometimes does this. Today I was annoyed. We have long had a disagreement over... drum roll please... housekeeping standards. The actual argument is irrelevant. We resolve it as best we can. But the most recent annoyance was that he wants me to keep a certain standard. There are things I ask him to do that are difficult for me to do, particularly now when I am not supposed to lift or represent technology that I no longer know as much about. He doesn't do them. I ask. I send a note. I write a list. He ignores them. So he wants me to do these things, but is unwilling to aid me in small things that would facilitate. (Forget my picking up after him. When I am not cranky at him anyway, I don't even mind that.) All of this is par for the course, we work it out. It is just background to nature of my annoyance.

So I am annoyed at him. I finally speak to him about it in I feel and other terms as non-judgmentally and non-accusatory as I can manage. And I immediately get what ELSE I might be on about. Am I suffering depression? Are my hormones messed up because of the surgery? Am I worried about my MIL (unimportant why)?

Can't it be exactly what I just said? That the last TWENTY freaking small things that you SAID you would do for me you didn't do?

I am less bothered by the lack of doing than the failure to listen to me. To assume I am having some dramatic issue. No. I want you to ****ING LISTEN TO ME AND HEAR WHAT I SAY not determine I have a mental illness because I spoke to you about something that has me slightly annoyed.

I think that is why when the Men's Clubhouse folk go on about not listening to women because they are clueless, I want to scream. Simple communication is only simple when both parties can LISTEN and not just talk.
 
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#2 ·
"I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?"

SO, SO, SO TRUE for me as well and my husband does do similar things to what yours did above. I think it's an easy way out and a belief that has been promoted by men (and so sadly, women) as an excuse for many reasons.

Men use it so that they don't have to feel obligated to think about what is actually going on and women use it as an excuse to not own up to their behavior.

It's frustrating!
 
#3 ·
I am reasonably certain that my husband is not trying to get away from thinking about it. I am about 120% certain he genuinely wants to understand what is going on in my head. I KNOW for a FACT that he is highly motivated to make me happy. I have seen it time and time again. And I know he doesn't think, in the philosophical sense, that women don't know what they mean/need.

It is truly inexplicable to me.
 
#4 ·
All of what you say can be true and yet if your husband is tired or feels frustrated it can come in to play as an excuse he doesn't realize he's using as an excuse. My husband is similar to yours in that I know he also does want to understand me and knows that I am capable of knowing what I think and feel and expressing it but if we are having an argument or he's having a bad day, falling back on something like this is something he will do.
 
#5 ·
to me its like when im talking and the response is constant head nodding, and after every second word yea.. yea..

I DIDNT LIKE THE WAY THAT CONVERSTAION WENT TODAY
head nod head nod--yea yea--head nod head nod--yea yea

how is that listening to me!!?????
 
#6 ·
Do you find the true listening started after several years off settling in the marriage?

I feel the older we get, the more we settle into our marriage, the less men listen..I mean truly listen. And, I see there is more analyzing than anyting, at least with what I'm familiar too. And the analyzing creates even more frusteration as now you have to re-explain what wasn't heard the first time in different context which in turn again....doesn't get heard.
 
#70 ·
there is no mind block, men (in general) have no damn idea just what the heck you women are on about, how can we, we are not women.
I really really try to listen, AND understand what my wife is saying, but 90% of the time, sorry, no idea :(

Your (women) brains are wired differently to ours in thought processing, I wish I could understand, my current situation would not be happening :(

Oh, another thing, subtle hints, forget it, they don't work with men.
 
#8 ·
One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.)
Oh, contraire VT, it is a subset of a love language. Your remarks lead me to believe your LL is very similar to my wife's. While reading Chapman I struggled with understanding hers. I knew what it wasn't but not what it was.

IMHO you are describing Words of Affirmation. My wife doesn't require a lot of "I love you, you look wonderful, you're a great mother" but she does need to be valued. And just as important, she needs to be heard. As many men are, I am wired to "fix things" when someone presents a problem. (Problem?? = Do this, this and this. Next!!) But fixing things is not what she wants when she vents about work, a friend or the kids. She wants to be understood and shown that I support her and value her. Words of affirmation don't have to be romantic in nature. A simple, "I understand", "You're right", or "So what you are saying is......" can speak volumes to my wife. Sometimes it doesn't have to be verbal at all. A simple nod, hug or consistent eye contact is what tells her I value and respect her and that I am listening. She has my undivided attention and I care.
 
#10 ·
Pardon me, Ladies...

VT - I think the listening you refer to in the Men's Clubhouse and your Husband's apparent lack of listening are two different things.

The discussions in the clubhouse center around some high level concepts about differences in gender roles. Part of the idea being that some people aren't aware of, or won't admit to, the games people play.

A husband not adhering to a Honey-do list may just have other things on his mind. And if you've recently had surgery, he's probably/hopefully doing a bit more than normal.

Me - personally - when my wife is giving me a verbal list - I start to zone her out around #3. I'm either just not going to remember the entire list, or other stuff will come up and I won't get to it all. Sometimes I will even try to stop her at number 3 and ask her to give me the list in writing - but she usually keeps going.

If this is something new for him, then maybe he's just a bit overwhelmed at the moment.

If this is something he's always done, why expect him to change now?

Just my 2 cents.
 
#11 ·
Pardon me, Ladies...

VT - I think the listening you refer to in the Men's Clubhouse and your Husband's apparent lack of listening are two different things.
Please don't mistake me for inditing the entire Men's Clubhouse!


The discussions in the clubhouse center around some high level concepts about differences in gender roles. Part of the idea being that some people aren't aware of, or won't admit to, the games people play.
At least you have the good grace to say "people" instead of "women". But that is not the content to which I am referring.


A husband not adhering to a Honey-do list may just have other things on his mind. And if you've recently had surgery, he's probably/hopefully doing a bit more than normal.

Me - personally - when my wife is giving me a verbal list - I start to zone her out around #3. I'm either just not going to remember the entire list, or other stuff will come up and I won't get to it all. Sometimes I will even try to stop her at number 3 and ask her to give me the list in writing - but she usually keeps going.
It did not play like that though that is not even the crux of my issue. The issue is interpreting my annoyance as something other than what I tell him it is about and searching his mind for answers when the answer is before him.

If this is something new for him, then maybe he's just a bit overwhelmed at the moment.

If this is something he's always done, why expect him to change now?
Which part? Wanting him to listen to me? God only knows because it is never going to happen. The chores I could give two sh!ts about.
 
#12 ·
Don't you know the only way you are going to be "listened" to in the Men's Clubhouse is if you are murmuring while wearing high heels, nipple clamps, holding two mugs of beer, all while laying on your back.
Otherwise, you're just one of those evil women who doesn't belong there. Tsk, Tsk, VT. This isn't your first rodeo, is it?
 
#13 ·
I think I identified one factor in why some of the thoughts of the male posters in the Men's Clubhouse irritate me. It has been on my mind in the context of my life.

One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.) I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?

My husband sometimes does this. Today I was annoyed. We have long had a disagreement over... drum roll please... housekeeping standards. The actual argument is irrelevant. We resolve it as best we can. But the most recent annoyance was that he wants me to keep a certain standard. There are things I ask him to do that are difficult for me to do, particularly now when I am not supposed to lift or represent technology that I no longer know as much about. He doesn't do them. I ask. I send a note. I write a list. He ignores them. So he wants me to do these things, but is unwilling to aid me in small things that would facilitate. (Forget my picking up after him. When I am not cranky at him anyway, I don't even mind that.) All of this is par for the course, we work it out. It is just background to nature of my annoyance.

So I am annoyed at him. I finally speak to him about it in I feel and other terms as non-judgmentally and non-accusatory as I can manage. And I immediately get what ELSE I might be on about. Am I suffering depression? Are my hormones messed up because of the surgery? Am I worried about my MIL (unimportant why)?

Can't it be exactly what I just said? That the last TWENTY freaking small things that you SAID you would do for me you didn't do?
I am less bothered by the lack of doing than the failure to listen to me. To assume I am having some dramatic issue. No. I want you to ****ING LISTEN TO ME AND HEAR WHAT I SAY not determine I have a mental illness because I spoke to you about something that has me slightly annoyed.

I think that is why when the Men's Clubhouse folk go on about not listening to women because they are clueless, I want to scream. Simple communication is only simple when both parties can LISTEN and not just talk.
You DO sound really annoyed at his recent track-record of getting things done.

If HIS behavior is consistent (has he always done about half of what you ask), but YOUR reaction is different (suddenly calling him out on what he isn't doing), then it will leave him wondering what has changed.

And in "our" defense - I've heard many women blame a lot of emotional distress and misunderstandings on hormones, periods, menopause, PPD, etc. If you ladies don't want US questioning these mysterious "hormones", then please don't throw them out as potential causes when it suits your side of the argument.
 
#14 ·
You DO sound really annoyed at his recent track-record of getting things done.
I am annoyed to be sure. This is a small irritant compared to having it waved away in favor of all sorts of other possible reasons for me to be "acting this way".

If HIS behavior is consistent (has he always done about half of what you ask),
Doing what I ASK is not required or expected. Doing what he SAYS he will do, and then not doing it is the thing that irritates me. I can't do that is a perfectly good answer for me.

but YOUR reaction is different (suddenly calling him out on what he isn't doing), then it will leave him wondering what has changed.
I sure isn't sudden.

And in "our" defense -
Ha, ha, ha! Do you do this too? grrrr ;)

I've heard many women blame a lot of emotional distress and misunderstandings on hormones, periods, menopause, PPD, etc.
That sure as shootin' aint me. Even DH will agree that I don't PMS. I have never had PPD. I have had issues with hormones on these occaissions
- Depo Provera - nevil stuff
- Mirena IUD
- one of the pills I have taken

And I have looked him square in the face and told him I am a mental case right now, please feel free to disregard anything I say.


If you ladies don't want US questioning these mysterious "hormones", then please don't throw them out as potential causes when it suits your side of the argument.
I don't care what "ladies" do!

What I don't understand is why what I SAY is the cause of my annoyance ISN'T even a POTENTIAL cause of my annoyance.
 
#16 ·
VT,
You could be as explicite as a human being could possibly be about your feelings and intention and no doubt there would be some person over there challenging you left and right and questioning you. If called out on their behavior, then it becomes "get out of here, women don't belong". I won't name names, you know who I am referring to.
 
#19 ·
That's OK.

But I'm still confused.

I thought you said that you were annoyed because he wasn't listening and was accusing you of being depressed or hormonal?

I have the benefit of going back and reading your posts over and over - and I am still a bit confused.

He does not have that benefit.



If this is the case - and he says you're just being hormonal - then repeat this over and over - keeping it simple - until it sinks in.

Because you say you will do helpful things and then don't do them. Since I cannot do them myself, they are left undone.
THIS is clear to me. Your original post was not clear - at least not to me.
 
#23 ·
REAL MAN ™ is paying vigorous attention to this thread. Use of the words 'nipple rings' was somewhat distracting, but REAL MAN ™ has regained focus.


Everyone has what I refer to as 'The Stack'. It is the stack of stuff in your head that you are accountable for, working on, or struggling to remember. The Stack could be desperately important, or utterly irrelevant. I am firmly convinced that 'The Stack' accounts for 50% or more of miscommunication between spouses when it comes to task related dialogue.

You don't know what's on my stack. I don't know what's on your stack. What you describe is particularly an issue for me due to ADD.

What I suppose I find heartening is that you recognize this as a communication issue, not disrespect or indifference.

If you opened with, "I'm struggling with something and I need your help ..." I'll bet you cup of coffee that he will be attendant and responsive. With that opening you are appealing to the 'fixer' in him. If that doesn't work, try dropping to a knee and delivering a solid nut-punch that'll get his attention too.
 
#24 ·
REAL MAN ™ is paying vigorous attention to this thread. Use of the words 'nipple rings' was somewhat distracting, but REAL MAN ™ has regained focus.
Really actually Laughing Out Loud.
Everyone has what I refer to as 'The Stack'. It is the stack of stuff in your head that you are accountable for, working on, or struggling to remember.
First on, last off?
The Stack could be desperately important, or utterly irrelevant. I am firmly convinced that 'The Stack' accounts for 50% or more of miscommunication between spouses when it comes to task related dialogue.

You don't know what's on my stack. I don't know what's on your stack. What you describe is particularly an issue for me due to ADD.
I think DH has undiagnosed ADHD. Doesn't the term ADD not officially exist anymore?

This is a source of occasional low grade strife between us. My stack sure as heck does not live in my head. Want to know what is on my stack open, in this order
- Outlook
- my Flylady control journal
- Home School Tracker

There is my stack.

When he tells me he "forgot" I think... of course you forgot. You relied on your brain. Duh.

What I suppose I find heartening is that you recognize this as a communication issue, not disrespect or indifference.
I never, ever, ever thought for one second that he meant either disrespect or indifference. This is, indeed, heartening. To the point where it is only an issue when I haven't gotten any for 6 weeks and there are 5 more to go, I think.

If you opened with, "I'm struggling with something and I need your help ..." I'll bet you cup of coffee that he will be attendant and responsive.
He is always attentive and responsive. Just not with the response I would necessary prefer!

With that opening you are appealing to the 'fixer' in him. If that doesn't work, try dropping to a knee and delivering a solid nut-punch that'll get his attention too.
I could blow him. But then he would be walking around with that dopey face for a day.
 
#30 ·
No friggin clue. Although you have given me a coping mechanism with my ex-wife.

When she gives me some kind of task, which still occasionally happens pertaining to the kids, I'm going to ask her to complete the request with: "Do this and I will give you a blow job."

I think this would help me position the request at the top of 'The Stack'. It's like a mnemonic hook.
 
#32 ·
VT,
Your post itself is perfectly clear. Honestly I think it is condescending of your audience (in this case your H) to try to make this about you.

Lets first accept this for what it is - not a failure to listen but rather an exercise in blame-shifting. Instead of this being about "his" failure to perform it is about "your" tenuous emotional state.

There is something I refer to as a "compound" problem which is when two issues intersect:
1. I have not performed/done what I promised
2. My W is in general upset about other stuff

The result of this is the content of her comments is valid but the emotional intensity is WAY higher than it normally would be.

When that happens I "fully own" my performance problem and then get on it. AFTER I fix the problem I tell her I understand that the cause was 100 percent on me, and I also ask her why she was more angry about it than I expected.

That approach usually works pretty well.
 
#33 ·
Sigh, perhaps we should try that again... deleted message is... deleted.

VT,
Your post itself is perfectly clear. Honestly I think it is condescending of your audience (in this case your H) to try to make this about you.

Lets first accept this for what it is - not a failure to listen but rather an exercise in blame-shifting. Instead of this being about "his" failure to perform it is about "your" tenuous emotional state.
I thought it was quite edifying (and helpful) of NG to hone in on what was different. Had he ever been different in this regard. No he had not. I was more sensitive to it. I was annoyed by that which had not regularly annoyed me.

There is something I refer to as a "compound" problem which is when two issues intersect:
1. I have not performed/done what I promised
2. My W is in general upset about other stuff
Whose PoV are you speaking from?

The result of this is the content of her comments is valid but the emotional intensity is WAY higher than it normally would be.
I suppose I would feel the same way if there was any increase in emotional intensity. Which there wasn't. We have certain routines about domestic difference conversations...

When that happens I "fully own" my performance problem and then get on it. AFTER I fix the problem I tell her I understand that the cause was 100 percent on me, and I also ask her why she was more angry about it than I expected.
Good on you.
That approach usually works pretty well.
Again, good on you.
 
#36 ·
So I am annoyed at him. I finally speak to him about it in I feel and other terms as non-judgmentally and non-accusatory as I can manage. And I immediately get what ELSE I might be on about. Am I suffering depression? Are my hormones messed up because of the surgery? Am I worried about my MIL (unimportant why)?
You know, this made me think of women. Generally speaking (do NOT shoot LOL), women tend to over analyze, in the sense of they hear one thing, and they start to think what may be behind what it was they heard.

So maybe your husband has been reading too many of the "what's-in-a-woman's-mind" magazines, LOL, or if it's a recent development (since your surgery) then maybe he is that way now, because he is worried about your health, your well being.

On the side note: I read a lot of articles, magazines, you name it, about a male psyche. How men need to be told straight out, without any hints or roundabouts, what we, women mean/want. And yes I apply that. I tell my husband straight out what I want/need him to do. For example: Upon leaving the house I say: Please put the garbage bags in the hallway while I am gone, that way when I get back I will immediately throw the garbage out".

Guess what? I come back and it's still not done or he is in the middle of doing it! And I had been gone close to an hour! Maybe I have to be more specific and tell him that I will be back in EXACTLY one hour, so he better make sure it's done by then. But now it sounds like a threat. In which case he might as well NOT do it, just to make a point. :rofl:

And it's said that women are complicated :rofl:
 
#38 · (Edited)
VTMom,

MEM is onto something.

I'll add the following:

Generally, when women are upset or angry, people look to her internal workings....seeking out explanations which point to something being wrong with her rather than viewing her as reacting to an actual problem. By extension, this blends nicely with the idea that women are emotional and men are logical. Also...the good old - "Women don't know what they want." These beliefs reinforce the status quo and it means that real issues do not have to get addressed.

An angry woman is just being emotional.

When men get angry or upset, people look towards the situation & the problem.

An angry man is reacting to the situation.

It is unfortunate but for many people this way of thinking makes it into their intimate relationships in one way or another because it appears to be socially reinforced.

It's condescending & insulting.

For individual couples and for you guys - perhaps a convo about this dynamic is in order. You could try it out at a time where there is no conflict or use these brief statements in response to his behavior at the time it occurs. I am for option 2 - addresssing things as they happen. It seems to be the most effective way of breaking habits and bringing about change.


Him:

Are you suffering depression? Are your hormones messed up because of the surgery? Are you worried about MIL?
You
I feel that you aren't listing to me when I come to you with a specific concern and you ask me questions like those. I also find it very insulting. Let's chat about this later after you've had time to consider what I have just said.
And walk away.

This takes practice but you should do this every time he goes there with you until he breaks that habit he has of dismissing the issues with an analysis of your navel.

Have you read the book The Dance of Anger?
This book is awesome for many reasons. Please check it out.
 
#39 ·
VTMom,

MEM is onto something.

I'll add the following:

Generally, when women are upset or angry, people look to her internal workings....seeking out explanations which point to something being wrong with her rather than viewing her as reacting to an actual problem.
This is precisely my complaint. How is it that what I am actually SAYING is the problem cannot be actually considered the problem?

By extension, this blends nicely with the idea that women are emotional and men are logical. Also...the good old - "Women don't know what they want." These beliefs reinforce the status quo and it means that real issues do not have to get addressed.
Thanks reiterating my precise complaint. I DO know what I want. I speak what I want. I am not particularly emotional. I am about 150% more likely to be driven my reason than my husband.

The issue has resolved itself. We are once again one team.
 
#40 ·
Sorry - I editted just as you were posting....Please take another look. :)

This particular situation may have been resolved; however, the overarching issue has not.

I invite you to read the Dance of Anger & develop an effective way to address the behavior at the time it occurs. All you need are one or two effective & impactful sentences topped off with a departure from his presence. Be consistent until the habit is gone.
 
#43 ·
Chris, I am not certain what you are on about. I used the word annoyed for a reason. There was exactly zero anger, upset or any other frictional emotions. I expressed a problem. He tried to extrapolate to other things. I indicated No in fact what I said was the problem was the problem, recognizing that oft times I just suck it up and deal and don't get annoyed so I can see why the annoyance comes as a surprise. He did the things I asked.

I think you are inferring an "underlying problem" that is not there... whatever it is you think it is.
 
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