I think I identified one factor in why some of the thoughts of the male posters in the Men's Clubhouse irritate me. It has been on my mind in the context of my life.
One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.) I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?
My husband sometimes does this. Today I was annoyed. We have long had a disagreement over... drum roll please... housekeeping standards. The actual argument is irrelevant. We resolve it as best we can. But the most recent annoyance was that he wants me to keep a certain standard. There are things I ask him to do that are difficult for me to do, particularly now when I am not supposed to lift or represent technology that I no longer know as much about. He doesn't do them. I ask. I send a note. I write a list. He ignores them. So he wants me to do these things, but is unwilling to aid me in small things that would facilitate. (Forget my picking up after him. When I am not cranky at him anyway, I don't even mind that.) All of this is par for the course, we work it out. It is just background to nature of my annoyance.
So I am annoyed at him. I finally speak to him about it in I feel and other terms as non-judgmentally and non-accusatory as I can manage. And I immediately get what ELSE I might be on about. Am I suffering depression? Are my hormones messed up because of the surgery? Am I worried about my MIL (unimportant why)?
Can't it be exactly what I just said? That the last TWENTY freaking small things that you SAID you would do for me you didn't do?
I am less bothered by the lack of doing than the failure to listen to me. To assume I am having some dramatic issue. No. I want you to ****ING LISTEN TO ME AND HEAR WHAT I SAY not determine I have a mental illness because I spoke to you about something that has me slightly annoyed.
I think that is why when the Men's Clubhouse folk go on about not listening to women because they are clueless, I want to scream. Simple communication is only simple when both parties can LISTEN and not just talk.
"I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?"
SO, SO, SO TRUE for me as well and my husband does do similar things to what yours did above. I think it's an easy way out and a belief that has been promoted by men (and so sadly, women) as an excuse for many reasons.
Men use it so that they don't have to feel obligated to think about what is actually going on and women use it as an excuse to not own up to their behavior.
I am reasonably certain that my husband is not trying to get away from thinking about it. I am about 120% certain he genuinely wants to understand what is going on in my head. I KNOW for a FACT that he is highly motivated to make me happy. I have seen it time and time again. And I know he doesn't think, in the philosophical sense, that women don't know what they mean/need.
I am reasonably certain that my husband is not trying to get away from thinking about it. I am about 120% certain he genuinely wants to understand what is going on in my head. I KNOW for a FACT that he is highly motivated to make me happy. I have seen it time and time again. And I know he doesn't think, in the philosophical sense, that women don't know what they mean/need.
It is truly inexplicable to me.
All of what you say can be true and yet if your husband is tired or feels frustrated it can come in to play as an excuse he doesn't realize he's using as an excuse. My husband is similar to yours in that I know he also does want to understand me and knows that I am capable of knowing what I think and feel and expressing it but if we are having an argument or he's having a bad day, falling back on something like this is something he will do.
Do you find the true listening started after several years off settling in the marriage?
I feel the older we get, the more we settle into our marriage, the less men listen..I mean truly listen. And, I see there is more analyzing than anyting, at least with what I'm familiar too. And the analyzing creates even more frusteration as now you have to re-explain what wasn't heard the first time in different context which in turn again....doesn't get heard.
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Re: on understanding
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Originally Posted by vthomeschoolmom
One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.)
Oh, contraire VT, it is a subset of a love language. Your remarks lead me to believe your LL is very similar to my wife's. While reading Chapman I struggled with understanding hers. I knew what it wasn't but not what it was.
IMHO you are describing Words of Affirmation. My wife doesn't require a lot of "I love you, you look wonderful, you're a great mother" but she does need to be valued. And just as important, she needs to be heard. As many men are, I am wired to "fix things" when someone presents a problem. (Problem?? = Do this, this and this. Next!!) But fixing things is not what she wants when she vents about work, a friend or the kids. She wants to be understood and shown that I support her and value her. Words of affirmation don't have to be romantic in nature. A simple, "I understand", "You're right", or "So what you are saying is......" can speak volumes to my wife. Sometimes it doesn't have to be verbal at all. A simple nod, hug or consistent eye contact is what tells her I value and respect her and that I am listening. She has my undivided attention and I care.
I think I identified one factor in why some of the thoughts of the male posters in the Men's Clubhouse irritate me. It has been on my mind in the context of my life.
One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.) I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?
My husband sometimes does this. Today I was annoyed. We have long had a disagreement over... drum roll please... housekeeping standards. The actual argument is irrelevant. We resolve it as best we can. But the most recent annoyance was that he wants me to keep a certain standard. There are things I ask him to do that are difficult for me to do, particularly now when I am not supposed to lift or represent technology that I no longer know as much about. He doesn't do them. I ask. I send a note. I write a list. He ignores them. So he wants me to do these things, but is unwilling to aid me in small things that would facilitate. (Forget my picking up after him. When I am not cranky at him anyway, I don't even mind that.) All of this is par for the course, we work it out. It is just background to nature of my annoyance.
So I am annoyed at him. I finally speak to him about it in I feel and other terms as non-judgmentally and non-accusatory as I can manage. And I immediately get what ELSE I might be on about. Am I suffering depression? Are my hormones messed up because of the surgery? Am I worried about my MIL (unimportant why)?
Can't it be exactly what I just said? That the last TWENTY freaking small things that you SAID you would do for me you didn't do?
I am less bothered by the lack of doing than the failure to listen to me. To assume I am having some dramatic issue. No. I want you to ****ING LISTEN TO ME AND HEAR WHAT I SAY not determine I have a mental illness because I spoke to you about something that has me slightly annoyed.
I think that is why when the Men's Clubhouse folk go on about not listening to women because they are clueless, I want to scream. Simple communication is only simple when both parties can LISTEN and not just talk.
Pardon me, Ladies...
VT - I think the listening you refer to in the Men's Clubhouse and your Husband's apparent lack of listening are two different things.
The discussions in the clubhouse center around some high level concepts about differences in gender roles. Part of the idea being that some people aren't aware of, or won't admit to, the games people play.
A husband not adhering to a Honey-do list may just have other things on his mind. And if you've recently had surgery, he's probably/hopefully doing a bit more than normal.
Me - personally - when my wife is giving me a verbal list - I start to zone her out around #3. I'm either just not going to remember the entire list, or other stuff will come up and I won't get to it all. Sometimes I will even try to stop her at number 3 and ask her to give me the list in writing - but she usually keeps going.
If this is something new for him, then maybe he's just a bit overwhelmed at the moment.
If this is something he's always done, why expect him to change now?
VT - I think the listening you refer to in the Men's Clubhouse and your Husband's apparent lack of listening are two different things.
Please don't mistake me for inditing the entire Men's Clubhouse!
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The discussions in the clubhouse center around some high level concepts about differences in gender roles. Part of the idea being that some people aren't aware of, or won't admit to, the games people play.
At least you have the good grace to say "people" instead of "women". But that is not the content to which I am referring.
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A husband not adhering to a Honey-do list may just have other things on his mind. And if you've recently had surgery, he's probably/hopefully doing a bit more than normal.
Me - personally - when my wife is giving me a verbal list - I start to zone her out around #3. I'm either just not going to remember the entire list, or other stuff will come up and I won't get to it all. Sometimes I will even try to stop her at number 3 and ask her to give me the list in writing - but she usually keeps going.
It did not play like that though that is not even the crux of my issue. The issue is interpreting my annoyance as something other than what I tell him it is about and searching his mind for answers when the answer is before him.
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If this is something new for him, then maybe he's just a bit overwhelmed at the moment.
If this is something he's always done, why expect him to change now?
Which part? Wanting him to listen to me? God only knows because it is never going to happen. The chores I could give two sh!ts about.
Don't you know the only way you are going to be "listened" to in the Men's Clubhouse is if you are murmuring while wearing high heels, nipple clamps, holding two mugs of beer, all while laying on your back.
Otherwise, you're just one of those evil women who doesn't belong there. Tsk, Tsk, VT. This isn't your first rodeo, is it?
I think I identified one factor in why some of the thoughts of the male posters in the Men's Clubhouse irritate me. It has been on my mind in the context of my life.
One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.) I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?
My husband sometimes does this. Today I was annoyed. We have long had a disagreement over... drum roll please... housekeeping standards. The actual argument is irrelevant. We resolve it as best we can. But the most recent annoyance was that he wants me to keep a certain standard. There are things I ask him to do that are difficult for me to do, particularly now when I am not supposed to lift or represent technology that I no longer know as much about. He doesn't do them. I ask. I send a note. I write a list. He ignores them. So he wants me to do these things, but is unwilling to aid me in small things that would facilitate. (Forget my picking up after him. When I am not cranky at him anyway, I don't even mind that.) All of this is par for the course, we work it out. It is just background to nature of my annoyance.
So I am annoyed at him. I finally speak to him about it in I feel and other terms as non-judgmentally and non-accusatory as I can manage. And I immediately get what ELSE I might be on about. Am I suffering depression? Are my hormones messed up because of the surgery? Am I worried about my MIL (unimportant why)?
Can't it be exactly what I just said? That the last TWENTY freaking small things that you SAID you would do for me you didn't do?
I am less bothered by the lack of doing than the failure to listen to me. To assume I am having some dramatic issue. No. I want you to ****ING LISTEN TO ME AND HEAR WHAT I SAY not determine I have a mental illness because I spoke to you about something that has me slightly annoyed.
I think that is why when the Men's Clubhouse folk go on about not listening to women because they are clueless, I want to scream. Simple communication is only simple when both parties can LISTEN and not just talk.
You DO sound really annoyed at his recent track-record of getting things done.
If HIS behavior is consistent (has he always done about half of what you ask), but YOUR reaction is different (suddenly calling him out on what he isn't doing), then it will leave him wondering what has changed.
And in "our" defense - I've heard many women blame a lot of emotional distress and misunderstandings on hormones, periods, menopause, PPD, etc. If you ladies don't want US questioning these mysterious "hormones", then please don't throw them out as potential causes when it suits your side of the argument.
You DO sound really annoyed at his recent track-record of getting things done.
I am annoyed to be sure. This is a small irritant compared to having it waved away in favor of all sorts of other possible reasons for me to be "acting this way".
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If HIS behavior is consistent (has he always done about half of what you ask),
Doing what I ASK is not required or expected. Doing what he SAYS he will do, and then not doing it is the thing that irritates me. I can't do that is a perfectly good answer for me.
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but YOUR reaction is different (suddenly calling him out on what he isn't doing), then it will leave him wondering what has changed.
I sure isn't sudden.
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And in "our" defense -
Ha, ha, ha! Do you do this too? grrrr
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I've heard many women blame a lot of emotional distress and misunderstandings on hormones, periods, menopause, PPD, etc.
That sure as shootin' aint me. Even DH will agree that I don't PMS. I have never had PPD. I have had issues with hormones on these occaissions
- Depo Provera - nevil stuff
- Mirena IUD
- one of the pills I have taken
And I have looked him square in the face and told him I am a mental case right now, please feel free to disregard anything I say.
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If you ladies don't want US questioning these mysterious "hormones", then please don't throw them out as potential causes when it suits your side of the argument.
I don't care what "ladies" do!
What I don't understand is why what I SAY is the cause of my annoyance ISN'T even a POTENTIAL cause of my annoyance.
on understanding 
