MEM11363

I have seen a bunch of posts lately about "sensitive" men. The basic flavor tends to be I "want" a sensitive man, not a cold, aloof man. That makes sense to me, or at least I think it does. I do want to understand this area better though, so chime in as to how far off I am.

I tend to see "sensitive" as having 2 completely separate dimensions.
1. External sensitivity: This is about your sensitivity towards others. When you have a high degree of this, you are aware of how other people are feeling, reacting. You tend to be more tactful and certainly more supportive/sympathetic when they are having a tough time.

2. Internal sensitivity: This defines how easily YOU are disturbed by external events. It is a measure of how defensive, upset, angry you get when someone criticizes you or life is going against you for one reason or other.

IME - a lot of 1 is essential to a happy LTR. 2 - for a man - seems like a train wreck.

What am I missing?

Trenton

I think you are right on target.

LonelyNLost

I want number 1. Number 2 would be a woman. And I don't think that really works well for me.

I think sensitive to a lot of women just means more in tune with what we think and feel. Like to understand us and love us. To see things we do as sweet and not "get it". Basically, we want a woman's mind and soul in a man's body, lol.

__________________
~ You may be deceived if you trust too much, but you will live in torment if you don't trust enough. ~

Or, you could be a big sap and trust your husband, and he could end up being a lying, spineless, cheater.

JJG

I think i am missing the point . . .

Those statements are true of both men and women.

4sure

#2. for a woman - seems like a train wreck also. If men or women don't manage internal sensitivity he/she will be angry mad most of the time. Life never goes according to the plan that plays out in our minds. You better learn to adapt.

Syrum

I think number 1 is important, having empathy for others is key. I do want an emotional connection with my man too.

MEM11363

T,
Help me with this because the way I see it in the context of the broader conversations about alpha and beta goes like this.

Pure beta: A man who is perfect on 1 and terrible on 2, listens to you and understands you, but is often so upset with their "own" issues that they don't offer much in the way of help.

Pure alpha: A man who is perfect on 2, but very poor on 1. They are strong and stoic AND they fully expect you to be just like them. So they are not supportive and empathetic.

Either of these "men" makes for a difficult partner.

A man with a full dose of alpha AND beta is good at "1" and "2".

I listen to a lot of comments about how "alpha" guys are jerks. I totally disagree. Guys who have little to no "beta" are jerks.

I also hear many comments about how "beta" guys are wimps. I totally disagree. Guys who have little to no "alpha" are wimps.

The "presence" of alpha is not bad. The "absence" of beta is. Just as the "presence" of beta is not bad, the "absence" of alpha is.

The best example I have of this is: "when my W used to vent late at night "her" anxiety - caused "me" anxiety. My inappropriate response to that anxiety was not caused by the presence of beta, but the lack of alpha. So I would try to "solve" her problems to cure "my" anxiety. Selfish and very ineffective.

Now the "alpha" in me recognizes this is "her" anxiety for "her" to solve. And I am there in the moment being supportive and offering a shoulder and an ear. But I am not trying to solve her problems or shut her up. So the "beta" in me is sensitive to her needs, while the alpha in me keeps me even keeled and calm/soothing.

She doesn't notice the alpha. Because like MANY alpha responses it is about "self" control or "restraint".

The only time she perceives the "alpha" response if she begins to take her bad day out on me.

Conrad

And taking it out on you crosses a boundary.

And the presence of alpha is often necessary for firm boundary enforcement.

__________________
"Forgive or Re-Live"

-AFEH

Trenton

OK. I had this long post written and deleted it and wrote the quote above instead.

I decided to agree with you because 2 in extreme will be a train wreck for anyone whereas 1 in extreme will benefit those around him as well as himself. The more we let go of internal the more connected we are to external. Most of our internal struggles are what cloud and lead to external struggles.

I didn't see it as Alpha/Beta at all. If you're defining it in those terms I believe we need to redefine it -or- I need to re-look at it in those terms and see if my thought pattern changes.

notaname

Agree that these apply equally to men and women. Those whow struggle with #2 are gonna have a hard time in life and relationships regardless of sex/gender.

I think all humans need to feel understood to feel emotionally connected to other humans. That is where #1 becomes helpful.

We want someone who is sensitive to our needs, but not someone who will ignore their own needs (until resentment builds up and they start posting in the Men's Clubhouse and get told to man up).

And, yeah, it actually has always bothered me that my husband cries more than me. But, it ain't no deal breaker.

People don't want robots either. If you lose a loved one cry for goodness sake or show your grief somehow....don't pretend not to be impacted by life's changes.

MEM11363

T,
This is actually hard to convey clearly - help me as I struggle through it. Maybe Atholk will chime in. This is actually my (somewhat imperfect) interpretation of his genius.

Here is what I am trying to say:

Hypothetically: I have had a moderately bad day. I come home and immediately realize through my beta sensitivity that my W has had a much worse day. She proceeds to jump right into a long list of what went wrong. I am simultaneously alpha AND beta now. I am BOTH at the same time.

Alpha: First and foremost I assert complete emotional dominance of MYSELF. I force myself to relax and let go of my bad day which I remind myself in the overall scheme of things wasn't all that bad. I focus on HER and get out of my own head.
Beta: I empathize, I present an open, listening body language. I don't interrupt her, but I project clearly using my facial expressions some support along the lines of "I cannot believe that so and so did THAT"

And here we get to the branch point, because she wants to send "so and so" an email. And now I slip into a more externally alpha mode and say.
Me:
Words: "I will support you no matter what you do"
Body language: Hugely pained facial expression - like you have just before someone jumps off a building
Words: "Its just that every time "I" have ever sent an email to someone when I was feeling justifiably angry, I regretted it the next day".
Her: (Getting angry at me) So you think I am wrong?
Me: Not at all. I have just never met anyone who was nearly as effective when angry, as they are when they are calm.

And I guess the point of this is, I don't see alpha/beta as "either one OR the other". At peak I am both and it is damn hard to tell where one trait starts and the other stops. They complement each other.

At my worst - I am neither alpha nor beta. Instead I am lost in my own anxious response to the situation, and in being lost I am neither empathetic, nor helpful.

Trenton

In your scenario a few questions would come to mind, do you always override your own internal struggles to meet the needs of your wife's internal struggles? Is this because providing comfort and guidance to your wife reinforces your feelings of self worth (Alpha ego) and so you'd rather focus on helping her than you would moan about your day in competition against hers?

It very well might be that women, being more emotional creatures by default, have a greater need to have their internal struggles met with understanding, non judgmental guidance and support; whereas, men have a greater need to feel as if they are successfully the provider of this comfort and support and in providing this actually feel better themselves and their internal emotional struggles (Don't mind the long run on sentence).

In other words, both internal and external struggles exist for both but the way these struggles become settled for men and women is very different.

So my general question for you would be, in helping your wife did your own bad day seem less bad? -or- did a part of you resent that you had to speak about her day rather than yours?

The other question would be, do you have an example where your internal emotional struggles superseded that of your wife and how did your wife respond to this?

okeydokie

my head hurts

mentallydrained

Agree, this is a woman. I know...it's 110% me! Not to mention sensitive of putting a high regard on self as far as feeling need to make others like and accept me.

swedish

And whether a man or a woman, being sensitive towards others is a positive, while whining woe is me all the time is not.

__________________
~Swedish

No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein