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Confessions of a sensitive, LD, beta-male nice guy who went too far

11K views 118 replies 32 participants last post by  3Xnocharm 
#1 ·
A few weeks ago I started a thread in the "considering divorce" forum that drew polarized comments. Since then my wife and I have started counseling, and while I maintain that she's been irresponsible and very childish, I have to take a good look at myself if I really want things to improve. I'm doing that, and I now realize a lot of my problems come from my wishy-washyness. If you look at the sticky thread at the top of the Mens' Clubhouse, I am the poster child for everything those references tell you NOT to do. I am the sensitive, carefully-listening, sexually passive, honey-let's-just-not-fight husband to beat them all. I've always been like this due to a combination of personality and upbringing.

And I realize that if I want to do anything about it, I have to get some things off my chest. I'm posting this here rather than the mens' forum because I already know what they'll tell me. "Man up." Well, for someone like me, that's like telling a lifelong evangelical Christian "there is no God, deal with it." I'm hoping women might have a more nuanced opinion.

My parents' relationship was sexless, loveless, and communication-less. They were a terrible match. Both had been divorced previously, and I suspect they just wanted to still feel attractive. Whatever interest they had in each other was dead by the time I was born. My dad was a taciturn, cold, distant man obsessed with his work. He only expressed opinions when my mom prodded him for so long that he got frustrated and yelled at her or us kids. My mother, for her part, was a chatty emotional wreck who was full of bitterness, especially sexual bitterness. Sex was mentioned in my house only when my mother was complaining about it with her sisters or friends. She could go on forever about how awful it was that men want sex all the time, how men are always staring at women, how men have single-track minds and can't do anything useful except earn money and donate DNA. And my dad seemed perfectly okay with proving her right (except for the sex part; he was outwardly asexual, though I later discovered he had a healthy porn collection). My dad rarely did chores or cooked. My mom has a picture of him feeding me as a baby...she took the picture because it was apparently the first and last time he ever did that. My dad saw his role as making money and staying silent about my mom's constant griping. My mom set all the household rules and did essentially all the disciplining of the kids.

So that was my home situation. Internally, I've always been a sissy. I never played rough as a kid, I always hated sports, and my instinctual response to conflict has always been to run away, not to fight. I've always had the urge to explain myself, rather than just stand up for my feelings (hence, this long post). Not surprisingly, other boys had little respect for me as a kid, and they don't have any respect for me now. And that's fine, because the feeling is mutual. I want nothing from other men and have no male friends, because I can't relate to them.

But things get tricky when it comes to relationships with women. My mom and her friends (the main female influences in my early life) openly hated men acting like men, hated sex. And then there were all the cultural talking points of the late 80's/early 90's when I was coming of age...all women want is respect, flirting at work is BAD, pornography leads to violence against women, etc. Who were the archetypal bad husbands of the time? The abusers, the deadbeat dads, and the sex-crazed cheaters (just look at the movies and TV shows of the era). So what did I learn going into the age at which I was attracted to girls? That sex is bad, wanting women to do things is bad, standing up for yourself is bad because it puts you in league with men who want sex and want women to do things. That the only respectful way to solve a problem is by talking. Indeed, this was one of my mom's many complaints about my dad: "he never listens to me." (This may or may not have been true). Yet I learned at an early age not to discuss my feelings with my mom, because anything negative would be answered with "oh, stop whining. If you were a girl, you'd have real problems". So it seemed to me that a man becomes a good man by NOT doing things: not complaining, not wanting sex, not expecting anything, not yelling, not hitting, not doing "guy stuff." Just bring home the paycheck and do as many chores as possible, and otherwise stay out of her way. Don't question her, because she's female, and therefore has troubles that you could never possibly understand or appreciate. That's how you show respect.

Surprise, surprise, it doesn't work that way in practice. I didn't start trying to date until college (I was put under a lot of pressure to succeed in school...gotta bring home that paycheck, you know) and never understood why women didn't like me. I got the old cliche "You're such a nice guy, but..." routine and it drove me crazy. Isn't that what women want? Isn't that respect, being nice? What, you want me to show sexual interest, like Clarence Thomas?

Still, I never learned anything from these experiences. I was set in my ways by this point, and I rationalized that I was just dealing with young women who had some kind of battered wife mentality. Especially as regards sex. The women in my family had already shown me that women hate sex, that if women ran the world sex would not exist. My mom once caught me watching porn when I was 13 (one of my dad's tapes) and blew up--she said "nobody really does this kind of stuff" and "you must really be sick if you think this is exciting." So I suppressed my desire for sex until it barely existed. It's easier than you might think. I was also (and still am) taking psychiatric drugs that are notorious for killing one's libido, so that helped.

I had relationships in my twenties and they were mostly short-term. Everyone thought I was arrogant and disinterested at first, weak and mealy when they got to know me better. They wanted me to initiate sex, which I almost never did. I told them I didn't want to impose, because that's what I thought it was. Even my psychology-major feminist girlfriend, who used to say things like "that's such a cis-normative portrayal of queer attraction", called me a p***y.

It didn't change. I spent all these years "knowing" women want sex and strong men in the same sense that someone deathly afraid of flying "knows" that air travel is safe. The thought was there, but it never felt real enough for me to change anything. Things finally changed when my marriage started to collapse (both my fault and hers) and I found this group and a couple others.

In the few months I've been lurking, TAM has been a complete game-changer for me. I think this community is big enough that we've got a decent cross-section of personalities, beliefs, politics, ages, and backgrounds here...and yet the opinion about men like me is virtually 100% you need to toughen up. It's not even controversial. The opinion here is all but unanimous that men like me are not being sensitive, or caring, or considerate...we're just being sissies (self-serving sissies, in many cases). I could always rationalize that thought away when one person (my girlfriend or wife) was saying it. Seeing hundreds of women say it makes that much harder to do. It just blows my mind...I've spent my entire life thinking I was doing the right thing.

The other thing I noticed is the number of women complaining about lack of sex in their relationships, which is something I never imagined really happening. And many of these women have children, to my amazement (I always viewed giving birth as a one-way ticket to permanent disgust with sex and one's own body, if one wasn't there already...this is one of the many reasons I vowed early on never to father a child). Again, when it was just my partner I could always say their complaining about lack of sex was just manipulation. Seeing hundreds of strangers say the same thing changes everything.

To top it all off, this past fall my 70 year old, sex-hating, man-hating mother announced that she'd been having an affair (she and my dad have lived apart for many years, but remain legally married). Even this woman who told me I was sick for finding scantily-clad women attractive, who would w(h)ine for hours with her sister about how gross it was to have to share a bed with my father, apparently needed something.

If you've read this far you probably think I'm a clueless, selfish idiot, and you're exactly right. I'm completely stupid. I'm also angry, and I can't decide whether I should be angry at my family and society for sending me so many ambiguous signals, or angry at myself for misinterpreting them. Every thing I said above is true, about getting the message that sex is bad and strong men are oppressive, but I know there must have been other messages as well, which I somehow filtered out when they didn't match my idea of what a man should be like. How could I have not seen those? Especially when I was hurting my partners so much? I now realize there was a fair bit of misogyny in how I rationalized my actions...when it comes right down to it, I was acting out of fear. I was so afraid of disrespecting women in the stereotypical ways that I disrespected them in unexpected ways that nobody ever told me was possible. I was too dumb to see it happening.

The problem is, like I said at the top, this is essentially a crisis of faith for me (I'm not religious, so I can't say that with certainty, but it's the best analogy I can come up with). In the space of a couple of months my core beliefs about my world have been shaken to the ground. I know I have a problem, but it's not easy for me to change overnight. I'm now in my late thirties, and having to correct decades of habits that I should have given up at 18. Maybe I now know (in a real sense) that it's not oppressive or controlling to want sex from a woman, but that doesn't make me want sex. I now understand that sometimes I have to make tough decisions and stand by them without first talking it over with my wife for six hours, to get her feelings about it...but that doesn't make it easy.

What might make it easier is having some idea of where that line is drawn...where does strength become abuse, and where does sexual desire become sickness/control? That's why I started this thread. Ladies, where do you draw that line, and which side of the line would you rather have your partner err on? Those of you who identify as feminists, how do you square your need for strength and intimacy with your partner (assuming you have that need) with your desire to be in control of your own life?

Just so the record is clear: I'm not trying to whine or to push an agenda with this post. I'm honestly asking for help here, and I sincerely appreciate anybody who has a comment. I'm supposed to be working right now so I may not respond much in this thread, but I will be checking it. Thanks.
 
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#2 ·
Good evening laundryman
the most important thing to keep in mind is that different people want different things. You simply cannot generalize about large parts of the population. Some women want frequent hot kinky sex, others would be happy to never have sex. Some want a macho bad-boy man, some want a nice guy.

You need to first think about what you want, and what you want to be. Then be honest about that with yourself and with women and wait until you find someone who wants what you are. There WILL be someone. The only bad thing to do is to pretend that you are someone you are not - because that will just lead to misery down the road.
 
#4 ·
Good evening laundryman
the most important thing to keep in mind is that different people want different things. You simply cannot generalize about large parts of the population. Some women want frequent hot kinky sex, others would be happy to never have sex. Some want a macho bad-boy man, some want a nice guy.
Sure, but I never felt like I was "allowed" to think of women as wanting sex or a bad boy, because to do so would be disrespectful. That's why I'm asking for several different opinions here, so I can get some idea of what the distribution is, instead of trying to make a generalization like I've done my entire life.

I have found someone...I'm married. I now think she didn't want me for who I am but for what I could provide her (a house and a paycheck so that she could spend her days playing at the park), but that's another thread there.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for sharing your story. You're quite brave to do so!

Really, a lot of people are totally messed up by their parents.

Maybe you can start with that, and just realize that no matter what direction any of us get messed up in, it can be worked with.

I can tell you that there will be no point in trying to lay blame. Nor is there any point in the self-loathing you feel (which comes through in your posts). When you get to the point that you don't want to find out who to blame and you don't hate yourself anymore...you will begin to heal.

Yes, women want sex. Your mother was wrong and sounds like she and your father both have/had their own massive issues. Again, that sucks and I'm sorry you grew up that way.

I'm sure it will take you some time to start working up a NEW world view, one that matches the rest of (most people's) reality.

Also thank you for pointing out that is is actually quite easy for someone to shut down their own sexuality....women do it all the time but men do, too....I wish more men like you would talk about their situations.

Where does sexual desire become sickness/control? I'd say nowhere.

Desire itself is not a sickness and doesn't control others. I may sometimes be controlled by my own desire (ie: may feel sexual frustration that I cannot control) but frankly, I enjoy feeling extremely sexual like that.
 
#25 ·
Where does sexual desire become sickness/control? I'd say nowhere.

Desire itself is not a sickness and doesn't control others. I may sometimes be controlled by my own desire (ie: may feel sexual frustration that I cannot control) but frankly, I enjoy feeling extremely sexual like that.
Thanks for your opinion. This is the kind of answer I was looking for. I suspect most people would draw the line closer than you do, but that's why I'm asking.

To answer your other question, yes I'm in marriage counseling, but this is something else that will have to be dealt with separately from the MC. I'm not going to individual therapy, though (see my last post). Reading stuff here is much more helpful to me anyway.
 
#5 ·
I'm a dude that will tell you to "man up" but I'm going to wade in, anyway.

Start with a vision of what you want to remake yourself as instead of all the baggage and self-loathing of what you were.

Because you don't have to be that guy anymore.
 
#7 ·
Remember that there is a big difference btw being a patsie and being a good guy. Figure that out--be the good guy who does what is right b/c it is right, does what he wants to do bc he wants to (not out of a misguided expectation of some reward), and learns to like women as people whether or not sex is involved (or even potentially involved). Learn to like men, too, as individuals. Once you get to be the better version of yourself, some of these issues will resolve themselves. You will know "firm" from "controlling" when you move from a position of internal strength and self-confidence--which means you'll know 90% of the time and, like the rest of us, will accept that you aren't perfect and will still under- or over-react some of the time. That's ok! Good luck.
 
#14 ·
For all my complaining, I have it good. I love my job. Since I completely define myself by my work, that's 90% of the battle (long story short, in addition to the above, my parents also convinced me that a failure in school/career is a failure as a human being. Of course, I gobbled it up.)

The last 10%...it would be nice if a woman would tell me that it's possible to be understanding and caring without ovaries. But TBH I wouldn't believe them even if they said it. I can't trust anyone. Like I said, everything I've done in my social/romantic life has been based on fear.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Ok, admitting upfront, I have not read all the responses. But I read your last thread.

Man Up! Become more Alpha. Stop being a Beta, which you recognize you are.

When my SO wants it, he TAKES it. Is it rape? Absolutely not, because I am always a willing partner, as is he, when either of us wants it.

When we're sleeping, and the urge strikes him, he simply rolls over, gets me aroused, and MAKES it known what he wants. And likewise. If I wake up in the mood, I simply roll over and MAKE it known what I want.

In fact, forget the Alpha/Beta analogy. Just make your wishes known through direct communication.

Wake up, say "Honey, I'm H*rny. I need you."

Problem solved.

To specifically answer your question, STRENGTH is SEXY. Be strong.
 
#13 ·
Ok, admitting upfront, I have not read all the responses. But I read your last thread.
Yeah, my last thread was not me at my finest. This OP is just as long but better-argued.

When my SO wants it, he TAKES it. Is it rape? Absolutely not, because I am always a willing partner, as is he, when either of us wants it.
Fine, but where is that line drawn? That's what I'm asking. When you aren't a willing partner? When you're not in the mood? There are plenty of people out there (male and female) who think any sex at all without a clear, unambiguous verbal "YES" is rape. They're a minority, but they're out there.

I know, I can't anticipate the one in three million people who would react that way. That's part of why I started this thread.
 
#12 ·
Since you are a sensitive guy, and introspective, it seems like you would be helped by going to counseling to help you sort out your problems(especially mother issues!). My ex would have benefited by talking to a professional, but he could never admit that he had deep seated problems, many of them because of how his mother treated him. She wasn't purposely hurtful, just clueless. We are who we are because of our life experiences, but that doesn't mean we have to let them affect us the rest of our lives. We need to learn ways to let them go, and sometimes we could use a little help. Nothing wrong with that. Good luck to you.
 
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#22 ·
Anyway - I am not going to ask "what do you want?" because it is completely CLEAR that you have no idea what you want.

You have a lot of ideas about what you DON'T want. You don't want to be a bad guy, say bad things, do bad things, think bad thoughts, be a bad womanizer, etc.
Yes and no. I already am what I want to be...successful in my career (so far). It would be nice if I could make somebody happy on top of that, too. I know that sounds pathetic, but most of the people I know just think I'm depressing.

To those who said "what do you want to be, it's that simple"...no, it's NOT that simple. If I were 20 and single, maybe. But I have a family to think about. Should I just decide today "hey, I want to have sex with models every day. My house, my rules. Wife, either get implants or get out."??? No, that would make me into my wife, who decided her goal in life is to spend all day every day gossiping on FB, playing at the park, and writing gangster novels while I work...then accuse ME of not appreciating HER.

There are people you can talk with that will help you move from LaundryMan today to Future LaundryMan - maybe DryCleaningDude or RagMan or SudsChap or whatever.
My vote is for SudsChap. :) I should have thought of that earlier.
 
#27 ·
You won't be able to be happy and at peace until you free yourself from the damage that's been done to your mind. Acting "alpha" will be just an act, and it will be seen through like Saran Wrap until you get your own mind to a state of confidence and peace.

Your goal needs to be to live your life in a way that makes you happy. You're NOT happy right now. That's why you're here. Your career does not make you happy. It may define you, but that's all it does (this is by your own admission).

Once you've become ok with the core you, THEN you can start looking at how your interactions with women play out.

Asserting yourself and going after your own happiness does not mean someone else has to suffer as a result. It's not a zero-sum game.
 
#40 ·
I'm married. My past relationships have been varied but generally I've been the passive one. My wife of 7 years is an ungrateful spoiled brat with an explosive temper, but I do love her and she has many good qualities that work for me. I'd like to rescue our marriage and for all the things she's going to have to change, if I want her to change I need to take a good look at myself. I'm not giving her much to be thankful for, in other words. Not that that excuses some of the things she's done.
 
#35 ·
Laundryman. I love the vulnerability in your OP. I have a good bit to say and will come back and say it later today, but just wanted to give you a shout out for great vulnerability and introspection.
 
#46 ·
This is an absolutely fascinating post, an eye-opener, and also rather cringe-worthy in parts.

OP, I sympathize with you, as I am also the sensitive, beta-male nice guy (though not to the extreme that you describe yourself, and I'm not LD).

However, I was not raised the same way you were - quite the opposite, really. My father was a "guys guy" and lacked a complete respect for women - though not in a bad way, if that makes sense. More an old-school mentality when it came to men/women. My mother was rather submissive to my father, and that was the general dynamic in their marriage.

And this is what I find most interesting - that you didn't rebel when you were younger and go in an opposite direction, which so many of us do. Instead, you were moulded by your parents almost according to plan. Whereas I consciously deviated away from the dynamics my parents had in their marriage.

So rather than follow in my father's footsteps and turn into an old-school man's man, I became more sensitive towards women and have always generally treated them as equals, as partners. My father and mother both worked and both had careers. My father would drive to work, my mother rode the bus. My father would be home a good 1/2 hour before my mother most days, yet still expected her to make dinner for us. He did not vacuum or clean or do laundry or grocery shop. And she never complained.

But I saw this from a young age and felt it was unfair, so I often helped out around the house without being told. By 12 or 13 I was doing my own laundry, just to alleviate the amount my mother had to do. By my mid-teens I was making my own meals. I would clean my room without being told. I would take the vacuum and do the house without being told. Anything I could do to lessen the workload on my mother.

And this carried over into my relationships and marriage(s).

It took me until my early 30's to recognize that many women don't actually want this. They DO want a man's man in many cases, or at least the hint of one. They want a balance. Too far in one direction is never good.

Anyway, my advice is to make friends with other men. I sometimes feel that I'm much too picky about my male friends, and I often find myself not identifying with them in one way or another. But when I see past the outward personalities, I realize they're not a whole lot different than I am. The influence of having guy friends around can't be understated, as one really needs to be around their own sex to maintain the balance we all need. That's just the way it is.
 
#49 ·
Sounds like you are caught up in analysis paralysis.

That's common too.

You need to be able to make some fundamental distinctions.

The way you self-define does not make you a bad man.

The way you self-define does not make you appear as a very attractive man.

Which then begs the question. If you like and accept who you are, why change? Do you want to change?

Don't change to win your wife back.

Change because it is what you want to do for yourself. And/or because you want something very different from what you have always gotten as a result of being who you are.
 
#50 ·
Just want to give you another woman's perspective, here.

Here's my back story: My father left my mother for another woman when I was 2. My brothers were 7 and 8.

My Dad was the love of my mother's life - they actually had a great sex life, I learned from her many years later, but they fought like cats and dogs and couldn't stand each other on any other level. When he left, she fell apart. She started drinking, and spiraled into a full-blown alcoholic by the time I was 5.

I lived with her until I was 13, then had to move in with my father and stepmother (not the woman he left her for - that one didn't work out, big surprise) because she went into rehab for six weeks, and after that, she just thought I would be better off having a more stable family life.

First boyfriend was in high school: Didn't lose my virginity with him until I was 18 (we'd been dating for 3 years). Had a really good sexual relationship with him after that for several months, but then found out from a mutual friend that he was sleeping around quite frequently while away at school.

Broke up with him. After several months, started dating another guy. A Guy's Guy type, just as my first boyfriend had been. Waited a month to have sex with him - wanted to take it slowly. He dumped me the next day after we finally did. He had lasted about 10 seconds, and was, I'm sure, embarassed about that. I had handled it very kindly and didn't make a big deal (or really any deal) out of it, etc. But that was that. Admittedly, after him, I had a couple one-night-stands, because I just figured it doesn't mean anything to guys, anyway, so what the he!!. Didn't like the way that felt after the fact, though, so again took it slowly with the next guy I liked. And that was yet another case of sex after several dates, and then the calls got few and far between. And I thought we had a good experience - he even told me he "really, really liked me" afterwards, and gave me other compliments. But again, that was that.

After graduating, I met a guy I liked at my first job. After being friends for about six months, our relationship went to the next level. I had had a crush on him the whole time we were friends, but didn't think he was interested in me in that way. We actually had a good relationship physically and otherwise for about three months, but then things started to become more serious and he dumped me. I didn't pressure him or give him any ultimatums - he just said he felt like it was all moving too fast, and he wanted to continue to see other people. Next girl he dated, he married.

So, after this long history of having my heart torn out repeatedly by guys I really cared about, I met the man who would become my husband, and now my STBX. He was a nice guy. He called when he said he would. He included me in his future plans. We developed our sexual relationship at a mutually agreed-upon pace. He didn't dump me after one or two times of having sex. We grew closer. He was always very respectful. I liked how calm things were and how at peace I felt when I was with him. I felt like I'd finally found someone who saw me as an equal, and for whom it wasn't all about sex until he got bored with it and/or me, and who didn't get scared when we talked about the future.

The trouble started in our marriage because neither of us were initiators. He was so respectful, like you, that he thought the woman should always initiate it, otherwise, it's just imposing on her. And by this, I mean he wasn't even affectionate. He didn't hold my hand or give me a hug or a kiss when I came home from work (I'd do that with him, and he was just kind of cold about it). I started withdrawing little by little, and then he read that as my not being interested in him anymore, and he withdrew, and then started resenting me. And then the criticism started, and eventually became kind of constant - about everything - the way I walk, talk, cut my food... We should have talked about how things were really starting to tank, but because we both hated fighting due to memories of parents who yelled at each other (his parents were in a loveless, sexless marriage for a long time, like yours, and his father drank heavily), we didn't bring up difficult subjects like that. We really should have split up about three years into the marriage, if I'm quite honest with myself. But we stayed. And had a son. And now, 25 years later, he's finally leaving me for another woman.

So, my perspective is I'm a 50-year-old woman who really is not LD and is fully sexually functional, but who has apparently had a very long history of picking the wrong guys. And I think I need to look at why I've kept doing that all these years. Or else just plan on being alone.

I think I would like to be with a guy who's all the things you are - nice, sensitive (but not dramatic - I hate drama, which is why I generally don't like other women very much and don't relate to them at all), respectful, non-confrontational (all the good things my STBX was), but who also is deeply in love with me exactly as I am, which I now realize my STBX probably never really was, and who is regularly affectionate and loving with me. My STBX never once reached out to me in our entire marriage and just gave me a kiss. I did to him several times, and nothing happened after that. When we did have sex, it was something we talked about and planned beforehand. I'm sure it's spontaneous and passionate for him now with the OW.

I don't know what advice I have for you except, as hard as it may be, try talking to your wife about what's going on with you if you really love her and want to keep your marriage going. I know that's at least one thing I'll take away from this whole disaster that is now my marriage and how it's ending - if I'm ever in another relationship that matters and things start to go South, I'll talk to him about it, no matter how hard I find it to initiate that conversation. If he doesn't love and value me enough to listen and meet me halfway when I do that, then that'll be that.
 
#57 ·
Just want to give you another woman's perspective, here....
If he doesn't love and value me enough to listen and meet me halfway when I do that, then that'll be that.
Thank you for this story. So if I understand you correctly, you're saying the line is drawn where being nonconfrontational becomes an excuse for being avoidant. That is helpful. Yes, I have avoided conflict where possible and it's probably done a lot to hurt my marriage (it doesn't help that my wife cannot take even the mildest criticism, but that's no excuse and it's really not my problem).
 
#70 ·
Listen, man.

This whole thread started with you saying you were too beta.

What I see is passiveness and fear and self-loathing.

So are you willing to change or not?

Or are you just looking for some of the nice ladies here on TAM to just pat you on your head and say "there, there, dear. You're such a nice boy. I wish everyone would see that."

You spin and you spin and you spin...

Well, I guess, just like your laundry on the spin cycle.
 
#72 ·
Listen, man.

This whole thread started with you saying you were too beta.

What I see is passiveness and fear and self-loathing.

So are you willing to change or not?
Exactly. It's not complicated. You don't have to hate yourself. You really do not. And you can find the good in people. There are many people trying to do the right thing and to be their best selves.
You will find what you are looking for. It is so much more pleasant to look for the good.
We see most clearly that which we are focused on. If you are focused on the negative, you will be overcome with it. You can choose to focus on what is good, right, lovely, etc. and you will have a much healthier perspective. Sure it's important not to ignore things that need to be addressed, even if they are negative, but if that's your whole life you will have a negative life. You choose.
 
#73 ·
Hey LM... I know I said I would be back to give thoughts and right now I am just not much in a mood to think, write, talk. When I get like that I short change the effort. Will be back when I can. Sorry..
 
#82 ·
All right, maybe now I'm starting to get what you guys have been trying to say. It's been very hard for me. I'm sorry if it's been frustrating.

It's very, very difficult for me to imagine happiness without validation, because I don't think I've ever been happy without validation. Maybe in my career, but that might not count since I was brought up to believe that's just what you're supposed to do.

But there's a problem. You seem to be assuming that everyone has a right to happiness. That's a nice philosophical point to take, but nobody really believes that. If they do, why do we punish criminals? Why do we get angry or vengeful when someone does wrong against us? Why do we feel spiteful toward people who have wonderful things without ever having worked for them? Whether we admit it or not, almost all of us believe that people deserve happiness when they've been good. Not always and not by default, only when they've been good. Sometimes not even then.

So in essence you're saying I need to decide I have an unalienable right to happiness regardless of what others think. You'll have to do some talking to sell that idea to me. What makes me so freakin' special that I get to be happy when so many others are not?

The medication is for both. The depression is dominant. There have been times, off meds, when I've been unable to speak. But the good times are noticeably better without the medication. Still, I won't go off for fear of losing my job. Also the stuff I'm on now has truly horrible withdrawal effects (I discovered after going off it once before).
 
#81 ·
I'll take it further.

What if I told you that expecting women to like you just because you're nice, kind, give them things, and do things for them...

You're actually disrespecting who they are as a person?

Women aren't vending machines you put kindness coins into and get sex and respect out of.
 
#88 ·
You're missing the point entirely.

I don't care if you're happy or not.
Nor do I think 'being happy' is a state. Happiness is transitive, just like misery.

I think what you should be shooting for, is 'satisfied with myself and my conduct.'

Which you do not seem to be. Nor is that a gift anyone here can give you.

Here is what I can tell you though; if you want to make changes to how you conduct yourself and your life in an effort to feel more fulfilled and satisfied, and you DON'T feel soul shakingly uncomfortable on the journey, then you're doing it wrong.

I say it all the time around here; nothing changes if nothing changes.

You will need to stop analyzing and DO. And in the doing you are bound to occasionally get it wrong, or feel very uncomfortable about it.

Here is a guideline; you know that guy that seems just a little too confident, almost arrogant or smug, with that fake smile, yet people gravitate to him and women laugh at his jokes and you just sit there wondering how can anybody fall for that absolute crap?

Try being him.

People love that guy. Including himself.

Be him if those are the kinds of interactions you want.

Else decide who you are ... and work at being that guy instead.

Whether or not people like you or approve of you is truly immaterial. It's incredibly liberating to make that realization. Because it's also pretty true that nothing is that absolute.

You think being a pleaser and approval seeker will make people respect and admire you ... and now you know that isn't really true.

So what makes you think that being confident, gregarious, and focused on going after what you want, inherently makes you a jerk?

That stereotype also isn't really true.

And even if it were, who cares?


We can talk about what you should or shouldn't do for a few hundred pages.

None of it matters until you choose ... and DO ... something.
 
#90 ·
You're missing the point entirely.

I don't care if you're happy or not.
Nor do I think 'being happy' is a state. Happiness is transitive, just like misery.

I think what you should be shooting for, is 'satisfied with myself and my conduct.'
How about "successful in a relationship"? That works for me. I like female company, I like feeling like a partner. Clearly many people fail in their relationships, so being successful would make me feel successful and rewarded. I will not be able to do this by continuing in my passive conflict-avoidance mode. I'll have to be more respectable. Which means demanding things I should have and refusing things I should not have. What those things are depends on the partner, either the one I have or another sometime in the future. Sound reasonable?

Your post was one of the clearer ones I've received in this thread. Thanks, and thanks for putting up with my around and around thought process.
 
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