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Old 01-06-2012, 11:56 AM   #241 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did men stop being men???

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Originally Posted by morituri View Post
What a blame fest indeed.

Has it occurred to any of you that the reason why we have this group of men - and yes, women (shocking isn't it?) - is because there are enablers like the OP who is more a mother than a wife?

Look, men and women suffer because they choose to suffer. Nobody puts a gun to our heads and tells us that we have to continue being married to a slob or a cheat. If being married to our spouse is causing us great unhappiness, then we should divorce him/her. Otherwise we should stop whining like spoiled little brats.

When men and women stop settling for this group of men and women and choose to dump them, then this group of people will cease to exist as lifelong mates.

A real man/woman doesn't complain about the unfairness of life, he/she simply gets up, dusts him/herself off, and continues to strive to be happy.

To look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that we have the power to change our lives for the better, is much harder task than to whine, isn't it?
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:20 PM   #242 (permalink)
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Again, I have to come to RJ's defense. . .and maybe we all need to do this when we are talking.

There's a personal problem, advice, ranting. . .and then there's discussion.

She was simply noting what she sees as a trend. YOu can agree with the generalization, disagree, and yes, maybe her own experience is tainting her viewpoint.

I don't - let's step back. . .take a breather.

Like one poster said. . ."Does anyone know of any guy who doesn't do anything, just sits around eating grilled cheese sandwiches and playing video games?"

I really can't think of one either.

Now. . .maybe some guys aren't the "go-getters" of yesteryear? The ol' "I'll do anything it takes to earn a bigger buck" mentality. Not sure if RJ is lamenting that. . .maybe that is true?

Or is the male work ethic essentially the same and it's a misgeneralization?

I don't think it's a huge misgeneralization.

Men may be lulled into a sense that "Hey, I guess I'll have another income earner here. . .I don't have to take that crappy promotion or transfer and I won't."

I don't know. . .I don't know A, if this is true, and B, I don't know if we can even talk about it here with not everyone going postal and taking it personally.

I didn't take it personally. I work hard.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:38 PM   #243 (permalink)
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I have been watching this thread for the last few days, and see the misandry starting to creep in. I know I will be flamed for my views on this but I guess it'll be an interesting response, so here goes.

Let's not comment on the people who are bone idle, as there are just as many stories about women with entitlement issues as men....

On to the question at hand, Where did it all go wrong?

When the feminist movement began, men showed chivalry and gentlemanly conduct to women at all times, they tipped their hats and watched their language and did not expose women to the cruder side of the male persona. They went to war to protect the women and they were the first to go into any form of dangerous situation to protect the home, the family or the woman, not just a wife, but any woman, because that was the man's role in society. provider and protector. Don't get me wrong, there were the non-gentlemen, but lets stick to generalisations shall we.

Now, the feminists began to fight for equality, fantastic, no problem with that at all, but then they starting fighting the chivalry, they starting fighting the men who opened doors or tipped their hats, they fought to demasculate and demoralise any man who offered to fill the previously defined role, as women were capable of doing for themselves. Men began to question what it was they were supposed to do, as they were being lambasted if they tried to maintain the civil liberties that were given to women.

Then the pendulum kept getting pushed further, women started to divorce their men, just because they thought that they could get something better, the men lost half if not more of everything that they had worked for in a single swoop and then were also made to pay for the woman to have a comfortable lifestyle. So at this point a man is left with nothing to protect and yet still has to provide for a wife who is no longer involved, his worth in society is greatly reduced, as he has less than half of what he should have accumulated in his life till then, he is a failed husband, and his income is cut by a great percentage, so he is further held back from accumulating wealth and therefore has trouble attracting a new partner, because women STILL marry for security.

Amid all of this anarchy that is the male-female war of rights and responsibilities, women were taking more and more of their rights, again, no problem with this, but with rights come responsibilities, and the women were not taking the responsibilities on board. The family unit became defunct as women decided to burn their bras and leave the home to find a job in society that they deserved. The children in these families had a less stable PAIR of role models and were left questioning just what the hell was going on.

These children grew up in an era where the roles were less defined in the home and mum and dad held no clear cut definition, the lines were starting to blur, socially, men were not as deferential to women in their manners, women were outright hostile to men in scenarios where the men tried to remain old school and maintain the gentlemanly airs and graces. The message that was transferred to these children was confusing to say the least. Society had left a well worn and working path and was now trailblazing it's own way.

The children of the revolution grew up and formed their own families, with each side trying to fill a role that was now so undefined that they had to ad-lib and in doing so, more dysfunction was transferred into the family unit. The divorce rate started to increase as the women decided running and taking half and starting again all over with someone new was the easier option than working through life's problems and creating a relationship based on their own ideals rather than the feminazi model. These dysfunctional families created a generation of children with no idea what a family unit was, no skills for handling conflict or for relationship development and were solely focussed on themselves, a generation of people who were bought up with the idea that things meant happiness and people were just others to be competed with.

Somehow, this generation managed to reproduce, quite often their was no marriage or partnership, simple one night stands or casual sex, empowered women being impregnated because they didn't need a man in their lives. A generation born into some form of governmental financial assistance. A generation doomed to have no strong role model on either side, and a sense of entitlement from being raised on government handouts.... even the single mothers who work, are receiving supplemental income from the government. This generation have grown up with no idea what a stable family unit is, no idea what a gender role is, no idea that TV isn't real, no idea of the value of work, no idea about much at all really. They have an insatiable appetite for instantaneous gratification and are going to suffer greatly when they cant repay the loan for their big screen tv and xbox when the first payment is due in 12 months.

This is the worst of the generations up until now, but the splitting did not happen all at once, so we have a society with a mixture of all the generations attested to earlier, all at once in the same place. All competing..... you also get subsets of the generations, when differing generations crossbreed..... fascinating stuff when you sit back and watch it.

So, here you have my breakdown of how we have got it all wrong, notice though, that it is entire generations of people confused. The men you wish to see have been shouted down and put in a cage, we have no outward expression to create men anymore. We are arrested if we fight, scolded if we spit, and abused if we so much as dare to speak our minds.

So now we have metrosexual princesses who are going so far with the equality that they wear make-up and androgynise themselves, women who try to compete with men in their foolish pursuits of adrenaline, and binging, an entirely directionless, genderless mishmash without a thought in their vapid heads that does not centre around themselves, an entirely egocentric subset to society.

Real men went underground, waiting for the real women to come to us.
I couldn't have said it better. I hope the see the PC/Feminist pendulum swing back to "rational" in my lifetime. It think its very telling that women are starting to experience more health problems from competing in the work place. Eventually they will not be outliving men and I suspect they will begin to realize that"equality" is not all its cracked up to be.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:01 PM   #244 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Scannerguard View Post
Again, I have to come to RJ's defense. . .and maybe we all need to do this when we are talking.

There's a personal problem, advice, ranting. . .and then there's discussion.

She was simply noting what she sees as a trend. YOu can agree with the generalization, disagree, and yes, maybe her own experience is tainting her viewpoint.

I don't - let's step back. . .take a breather.

Like one poster said. . ."Does anyone know of any guy who doesn't do anything, just sits around eating grilled cheese sandwiches and playing video games?"

I really can't think of one either.

Now. . .maybe some guys aren't the "go-getters" of yesteryear? The ol' "I'll do anything it takes to earn a bigger buck" mentality. Not sure if RJ is lamenting that. . .maybe that is true?

Or is the male work ethic essentially the same and it's a misgeneralization?

I don't think it's a huge misgeneralization.

Men may be lulled into a sense that "Hey, I guess I'll have another income earner here. . .I don't have to take that crappy promotion or transfer and I won't."

I don't know. . .I don't know A, if this is true, and B, I don't know if we can even talk about it here with not everyone going postal and taking it personally.

I didn't take it personally. I work hard.
I agree wholeheartedly Scanner. Are there men who are lazy/slackers? Sure....just as there are women. I personally don't know any man like the OP described. In this economy, I know more people who are working longer hours (for free), traveling for work more and attending work functions just to be "seen". We don't have the luxury of being lazy nowadays.
Not sure about men not being the go getters of yesteryear. Do you mean not owning their own businesses/firms? Hmm, maybe but I think that has more to do with the lack of lending for small businesses and the fail rate of small businesses in this day and age rather than the drive of a man. Many are just fearful of going it alone but I don't think that means they lack a go getter attitude. Not sure what you meant there. Hopefully I got it right.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:22 PM   #245 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did men stop being men???

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Originally Posted by morituri View Post
What a blame fest indeed.

Has it occurred to any of you that the reason why we have this group of men - and yes, women (shocking isn't it?) - is because there are enablers like the OP who is more a mother than a wife?

Look, men and women suffer because they choose to suffer. Nobody puts a gun to our heads and tells us that we have to continue being married to a slob or a cheat. If being married to our spouse is causing us great unhappiness, then we should divorce him/her. Otherwise we should stop whining like spoiled little brats.

When men and women stop settling for this group of men and women and choose to dump them, then this group of people will cease to exist as lifelong mates.

A real man/woman doesn't complain about the unfairness of life, he/she simply gets up, dusts him/herself off, and continues to strive to be happy.

To look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that we have the power to change our lives for the better, is much harder task than to whine, isn't it?

First of all, not everyone wants to dive directly into a divorce just because things aren't the way that they should be. Sometimes people want to try to fix things and to do that it may take obtaining advice. What you call "whining", I consider to be expressing one's feelings about the issues they're dealing with and seeking any suggestions on what could be done to solve them.

You're response suggests that you'd run for divorce at the 1st sign of things not working out. Some people don't want to end their marriage when things are immediately sour. However, after obtaining all the advice they could retrieve, been to all the counselors they could afford, tried severals time to work things out with their spouse and things still don't work, then they'll consider the final alternative "divorce."

Therefore, it isn't fair of you to just accuse "enablers (like myself)" to be whiners who won't just shut up and divorce. Excuse me for trying to fight and find a way to fix what's broken.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:32 PM   #246 (permalink)
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Realbrighteyes,

Honestly, I don't know your problem.

Before we converse in the future, you just need to tell me, "I want to debate you, Scannerguard" and then I'll know where you are coming from.

I only said the 15-35% child support "evaporating into nothingness" could be a possible explanation for a declining work ethic.

I did not condone it (and went out of my way to say that). I do not encourage it to any guy.

It's stinkin' thinkin' but nonetheless, the OP is asking about "Thinking" and I am sticking to my story, that I have seen a lot of men not take that promotion, not take overtime, not take that side job.

Why?

Because I would just have to hand a lot of it over to my ex, is the thinking, and she'll just spend it on make-up and nails.

My attorney has noted he has seen it and has counseled me otherwise. I told him no need to; I'm on a 100%. I will pay my share and continue to try to earn more, no matter how the system penalizes me, if it does.

I'd rather be out scratching a living out, meeking an existence, being drown in child support (I am not, I think it's fair), than be back in a house being the family **** (and treated as such) cooking, cleaning, and doing laundry, and definitely not appreciated for such.

Kapeesh?

Never, EVER will I go back to a Feminist lifestyle. I'd rather live in a trailer and smoke Camels and drink Piels with Billy Bob Jimmy Boy.
I NEVER said you, Scanner. Tone doesn't come across well. I know you love your sons and you pay accordingly. Good Lord, you are not the person I was referring to. I was referring to the countless non-custodial parents who complain that they have to pay so much. It is chump change compared to what kids actually cost.
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:34 PM   #247 (permalink)
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You tell me. Many men seem happy blaming women for their shortcomings. Feminism, bread winning, etc., seems to be the meme around here as the cancer on men. How?
Please. It appears that little or nothing about man's nature has changed since Adam blamed "the woman" for his disobedience in the garden. And this goes for any man that blames his actions on women, whether it is his wife, his mother, his teacher or women in general.

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Old 01-06-2012, 02:54 PM   #248 (permalink)
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I think most of the riffing about these roles is an artifact of what age a person is that holds the views.

If you were to talk about the war between the sexes or feminism, traditional roles, etc., with someone the age of my children (mid20s), they really don't get all the hullabaloo.

The fighting of that war is long gone in their reality. Ancient history.
Oh wise one!
It's us old fuddy duddies who moan about gender roles. We can all talk about the pendulum shift but that won't happen. Kids today have been raised to understand equality and tolerance. What a sad state we live in.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:02 PM   #249 (permalink)
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TheRealBrightEyes,

Ah, my mistake then. I apologize for misreading you.

As far as the socio-economico-politico analysis on feminism posted above. . .it's beautifully written and tied together, but yet, believe it or not, I think comes across a little too anti-female (the feminazi comment, for instance).

I think we all agree feminism needed to happen (or mostly all agree, I would hope). . .a countermovement is now needed, that's all.

I think there were casualties in this war, mainly the family.

I'll admit I am not sure of the details of this countermovement, but I am sure I should be it's political leader

As far as marriage is related, I think you'll find my positions more moderate than you may suspect.

It wasn't uncommon for our grandmothers to say:

"Pasquale was such a good man. He never laid a hand on me."

I would suggest that perhaps grandma needed to raise her standards.

Now, it's not uncommon to hear:

"Patrick does not keep the house to my standard. The toilet has some pee around it, and there is a pile of laundry that needs folding. Yes, he ran the kids to sports, came home at lunch and put some food in teh crockpot, but I had to leave him a note to do it. He also didn't want to take that job promotion that would have landed him more money because he didn't like the boss in operations.

And OMG? He expects sex? Yeah, right. . .I think I'll vomit from anger."


I would suggest 21rst century women need to lower their standards a bit?

Maybe Mom had the right balance?

Or perhaps women just don't need men. A vibrator would perhaps suffice.

I am not sure.

Maybe this is our Brave New World.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:05 PM   #250 (permalink)
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Some day humans will eventually evolve to become hermaphrodites and only THEN will there be gender equality and therefore, peace on earth (or Mars)
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:12 PM   #251 (permalink)
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Well it's nice to know my penis may be on the endangered species list. . .maybe it can lobby for certain protections and rights?
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:23 PM   #252 (permalink)
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Well it's nice to know my penis may be on the endangered species list. . .maybe it can lobby for certain protections and rights?
You have the right to buy condoms... and there's the protection for your penis
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:23 PM   #253 (permalink)
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I'd rather live in a trailer and smoke Camels and drink Piels with Billy Bob Jimmy Boy.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:50 PM   #254 (permalink)
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TheRealBrightEyes,

Ah, my mistake then. I apologize for misreading you.

As far as the socio-economico-politico analysis on feminism posted above. . .it's beautifully written and tied together, but yet, believe it or not, I think comes across a little too anti-female (the feminazi comment, for instance).

I think we all agree feminism needed to happen (or mostly all agree, I would hope). . .a countermovement is now needed, that's all.

I think there were casualties in this war, mainly the family.

I'll admit I am not sure of the details of this countermovement, but I am sure I should be it's political leader

As far as marriage is related, I think you'll find my positions more moderate than you may suspect.

It wasn't uncommon for our grandmothers to say:

"Pasquale was such a good man. He never laid a hand on me."

I would suggest that perhaps grandma needed to raise her standards.

Now, it's not uncommon to hear:

"Patrick does not keep the house to my standard. The toilet has some pee around it, and there is a pile of laundry that needs folding. Yes, he ran the kids to sports, came home at lunch and put some food in teh crockpot, but I had to leave him a note to do it. He also didn't want to take that job promotion that would have landed him more money because he didn't like the boss in operations.

And OMG? He expects sex? Yeah, right. . .I think I'll vomit from anger."


I would suggest 21rst century women need to lower their standards a bit?

Maybe Mom had the right balance?

Or perhaps women just don't need men. A vibrator would perhaps suffice.

I am not sure.

Maybe this is our Brave New World.
I think you and I run in different circles. I don't know any woman who would value a man because he didn't hit her and I don't know any woman who would moan that her husband came home for lunch to prepare dinner and then complain about it.

About the family, I think feminism is less to blame for this. At its purest form, feminism was a great idea. Equality and women working to provide stability. If a man lost his job he had the security that his wife could at least help out financially. I don't see this as a bad thing.
What I think happened to the family unit wasn't feminism rather consumerism. Two incomes suddenly became a gold mine for advertisers. What did they do? They sold us that having the latest and greatest was important. Granted we all had a choice in this but many got sucked in to the dream. You CAN have it all. What happened? People extending beyond their means, flipped on their houses, leasing cars, buying furniture via Visa and taking vacations on Amex extended pay.
In doing so, they have to work longer hours to pay for this lifestyle. The 40 hour workweek is a thing of the past. It's all about keeping up with the Jones's. It hurt the family unit to the core but everybody thinks that "stuff" is what it is all about.
I grew up the daughter of immigrants who saved, scrimped and eventually became rich. The lesson about money I got from them was this "You only buy a house on credit". Why? It appreciates. Cars don't. Neither do clothes, jewelry or groceries.

Bottom line Scanner, I think feminism wasn't the cause of the demise of the American family....I think greed was.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:54 PM   #255 (permalink)
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I think you and I run in different circles. I don't know any woman who would value a man because he didn't hit her and I don't know any woman who would moan that her husband came home for lunch to prepare dinner and then complain about it.
Really? I think I am spot on.

Talk to octogenarians. Their expectations for a good man were rather low. (IMO).

Now. . .go talk to SimplyAmorous's niece or her other circle of friends and hear their expectations, or read them between the lines.

Man has got to fart butterflies, deliver an orgasm on demand (even though they can't give themselves one) and be hairless from neck to balls.

While we are on generalizations that is. . .
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