Ah, my mistake then. I apologize for misreading you.
As far as the socio-economico-politico analysis on feminism posted above. . .it's beautifully written and tied together, but yet, believe it or not, I think comes across a little too anti-female (the feminazi comment, for instance).
I think we all agree feminism needed to happen (or mostly all agree, I would hope). . .a countermovement is now needed, that's all.
I think there were casualties in this war, mainly the family.
I'll admit I am not sure of the details of this countermovement, but I am sure I should be it's political leader
As far as marriage is related, I think you'll find my positions more moderate than you may suspect.
It wasn't uncommon for our grandmothers to say:
"Pasquale was such a good man. He never laid a hand on me."
I would suggest that perhaps grandma needed to raise her standards.
Now, it's not uncommon to hear:
"Patrick does not keep the house to my standard. The toilet has some pee around it, and there is a pile of laundry that needs folding. Yes, he ran the kids to sports, came home at lunch and put some food in teh crockpot, but I had to leave him a note to do it. He also didn't want to take that job promotion that would have landed him more money because he didn't like the boss in operations.
And OMG? He expects sex? Yeah, right. . .I think I'll vomit from anger."
I would suggest 21rst century women need to lower their standards a bit?
Maybe Mom had the right balance?
Or perhaps women just don't need men. A vibrator would perhaps suffice.
I am not sure.
Maybe this is our Brave New World.
I think you and I run in different circles. I don't know any woman who would value a man because he didn't hit her and I don't know any woman who would moan that her husband came home for lunch to prepare dinner and then complain about it.
About the family, I think feminism is less to blame for this. At its purest form, feminism was a great idea. Equality and women working to provide stability. If a man lost his job he had the security that his wife could at least help out financially. I don't see this as a bad thing.
What I think happened to the family unit wasn't feminism rather consumerism. Two incomes suddenly became a gold mine for advertisers. What did they do? They sold us that having the latest and greatest was important. Granted we all had a choice in this but many got sucked in to the dream. You CAN have it all. What happened? People extending beyond their means, flipped on their houses, leasing cars, buying furniture via Visa and taking vacations on Amex extended pay.
In doing so, they have to work longer hours to pay for this lifestyle. The 40 hour workweek is a thing of the past. It's all about keeping up with the Jones's. It hurt the family unit to the core but everybody thinks that "stuff" is what it is all about.
I grew up the daughter of immigrants who saved, scrimped and eventually became rich. The lesson about money I got from them was this "You only buy a house on credit". Why? It appreciates. Cars don't. Neither do clothes, jewelry or groceries.
Bottom line Scanner, I think feminism wasn't the cause of the demise of the American family....I think greed was.
I think you and I run in different circles. I don't know any woman who would value a man because he didn't hit her and I don't know any woman who would moan that her husband came home for lunch to prepare dinner and then complain about it.
Really? I think I am spot on.
Talk to octogenarians. Their expectations for a good man were rather low. (IMO).
Now. . .go talk to SimplyAmorous's niece or her other circle of friends and hear their expectations, or read them between the lines.
Man has got to fart butterflies, deliver an orgasm on demand (even though they can't give themselves one) and be hairless from neck to balls.
__________________
And maybe I seem a bit confused. . .but maybe, I got you pegged! Ha! Don't know what to do about those tossed salad and scrambled eggs. . .they're posting again. Scannerguard has left the building.
Originally Posted by Scannerguard
Well it's nice to know my penis may be on the endangered species list. . .maybe it can lobby for certain protections and rights?
You have the right to buy condoms... and there's the protection for your penis
Dowlll!
I thought, as an endangered species, my penis coudl be granted the right to "free range", the right to roam a bit. . .let it get some clean fresh air.
The right to mate. . .and reproduce more penises. . .oh right, 3 boys, I did do that already, huh?
__________________
And maybe I seem a bit confused. . .but maybe, I got you pegged! Ha! Don't know what to do about those tossed salad and scrambled eggs. . .they're posting again. Scannerguard has left the building.
Talk to octogenarians. Their expectations for a good man were rather low. (IMO).
Now. . .go talk to SimplyAmorous's niece or her other circle of friends and hear their expectations, or read them between the lines.
Man has got to fart butterflies, deliver an orgasm on demand (even though they can't give themselves one) and be hairless from neck to balls.
While we are on generalizations that is. . .
No, what SA's niece was saying is that she is educated/accomplished and she expects her potential mate to be just that. I don't see this as a bad thing. Water reaches it's own level.
Has it occurred to any of you that the reason why we have this group of men - and yes, women (shocking isn't it?) - is because there are enablers like the OP who is more a mother than a wife?
Look, men and women suffer because they choose to suffer. Nobody puts a gun to our heads and tells us that we have to continue being married to a slob or a cheat. If being married to our spouse is causing us great unhappiness, then we should divorce him/her. Otherwise we should stop whining like spoiled little brats.
When men and women stop settling for this group of men and women and choose to dump them, then this group of people will cease to exist as lifelong mates.
A real man/woman doesn't complain about the unfairness of life, he/she simply gets up, dusts him/herself off, and continues to strive to be happy.
To look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that we have the power to change our lives for the better, is much harder task than to whine, isn't it?
Best post in the thread.
Other than mine, of course.
Astounded by the number of "real men" here who do little other than play victim. Posted via Mobile Device
I think most of the riffing about these roles is an artifact of what age a person is that holds the views.
If you were to talk about the war between the sexes or feminism, traditional roles, etc., with someone the age of my children (mid20s), they really don't get all the hullabaloo.
The fighting of that war is long gone in their reality. Ancient history.
Well, yeah. As a midtwenty-something, Mephisto's little rant was positively Beck-esque (especially the part about metrosexuals. For real? Men using a little hair product is the downfall of society?) No respect for anyone using the term feminazi either. But, you know. Boomers
Anyhoo, I'm on a phone that won't let me copy text from a site, but I just read that we will have to wait till 2050 until mens hours equal womens doing household chores. So, I'll be 63 when my husband does the dishes every other day? LOL.
Seriously, I don't know why (barring illness) people get lazy about their own house, you are the ones who have to live there. Nobody gets a free pass, if you live in your house, do something to contribute to its well being. Man, woman, child; my toddler picks up his toys and wipes down his high chair. I stay at home, I clean the bulk of the house. If the situation was reversed, i'd expect the same from my husb. When I go back to work, chores will once again be equally divided. I know I have a real man, are they really that rare? Posted via Mobile Device
Well, yeah. As a midtwenty-something, Mephisto's little rant was positively Beck-esque (especially the part about metrosexuals. For real? Men using a little hair product is the downfall of society?) No respect for anyone using the term feminazi either. But, you know. Boomers
Anyhoo, I'm on a phone that won't let me copy text from a site, but I just read that we will have to wait till 2050 until mens hours equal womens doing household chores. So, I'll be 63 when my husband does the dishes every other day? LOL.
Seriously, I don't know why (barring illness) people get lazy about their own house, you are the ones who have to live there. Nobody gets a free pass, if you live in your house, do something to contribute to its well being. Man, woman, child; my toddler picks up his toys and wipes down his high chair. I stay at home, I clean the bulk of the house. If the situation was reversed, i'd expect the same from my husb. When I go back to work, chores will once again be equally divided. I know I have a real man, are they really that rare? Posted via Mobile Device
My sons have been making their own lunch since they were 8. At the age of 19 and 14 now, they both know how to cook. I am talking pork tenderloin with sour cherry reduction sauce kind of cooking. They also know how to change a tire, use a power drill flawlessly and re grout the tub. They use hair gel though so everything is out the window.
No, what SA's niece was saying is that she is educated/accomplished and she expects her potential mate to be just that. I don't see this as a bad thing. Water reaches it's own level.
You know what is funny to me about this.... women want water to reach it's own level, I do not disagree with this comment at all !
....but men are not the same as women, thank God ....... many GOOD men still look more to a woman's character in choosing a wife, they want to know if she will be faithful, if she will make a good nurthering Mother to the children they create, they look for someone who will respect them, who will devote herself to their growing family, they do not demand that their potential wives earn as much as them , it is not about financial success , that water reaching thier level.
See, Men still have that drive to protect and cherish and take care of.
Women will never be the same, they would not lower themselves ....and no matter what they say.... they generally look down on men who make less $$, because they are not inherently meant to be the Breadwinners, the protecters.
As always, love Mephisto's posts, I think alot like him.
Women will never be the same, they would not lower themselves ....and no matter what they say.... they generally look down on men who make less $$, because they are not inherently meant to be the Breadwinners, the protecters.
I'm afraid this simply is not correct, and any anthropologist will tell you so. There's no such thing as an inherent breadwinner. In the human race's first, and most primitive, societies (and therefore those closest to our inherent nature) there was an equal division of labor among the sexes. And it wasn't simply men hunted and women gathered. In fact, BOTH hunted and BOTH gathered.
Now, in the many centuries since have people been socially conditioned to see the ma as breadwinner? Sure. But that's conditioning, not human nature. And, relatively speaking, it's a recent phenomena. Slowly, but surely, that conditioning will change as society changes - and society always changes.
You are free to hold firm to outdated notions about gender roles. Certainly you won't be alone, and if it works for you, that's cool. But most people, especially the young, recognize that men and women are fully capable of providing for themselves, or one another, if they so choose. There's absolutely nothing in our nature that defines one sex as "breadwinner" and the other as "homemaker." Posted via Mobile Device
You know what is funny to me about this.... women want water to reach it's own level, I do not disagree with this comment at all !
....but men are not the same as women, thank God ....... many GOOD men still look more to a woman's character in choosing a wife, they want to know if she will be faithful, if she will make a good nurthering Mother to the children they create, they look for someone who will respect them, who will devote herself to their growing family, they do not demand that their potential wives earn as much as them , it is not about financial success , that water reaching thier level.
See, Men still have that drive to protect and cherish and take care of.
Women will never be the same, they would not lower themselves ....and no matter what they say.... they generally look down on men who make less $$, because they are not inherently meant to be the Breadwinners, the protecters.
As always, love Mephisto's posts, I think alot like him.
I DID NOT say women want water to reach their own level, I said water reaches it's own level. Water isn't gender specific at all.
Simply put, a smart man doesn't want an idiot wife. A smart woman doesn't want a stupid man.
There is a reason why 10's marry 10's. There is a reason why smart people marry their own and their is a reason why we all gravitate to the reflection of ourselves.
My sons have been making their own lunch since they were 8. At the age of 19 and 14 now, they both know how to cook. I am talking pork tenderloin with sour cherry reduction sauce kind of cooking. They also know how to change a tire, use a power drill flawlessly and re grout the tub. They use hair gel though so everything is out the window.
I'd be willing to bet that these are not boys who will ever shirk their share of the responsibility in a relationship
Feminazi: There's a difference between a feminazi and a feminist.
A feminist is someone who supports womens' rights, feminists believe that women should have rights equal to men. Simple as that. Feminism is cool.
Feminazis believe that men should have no rights and should be killed.
Metrosexuals: A straight man who embraces the homosexual lifestyle, i.e. refined tastes in clothing, excessive use of designer hygiene products, etc. Usually is on the brink of homosexuality. Generally takes longer than a woman to get himself ready to go out in public.
First of all, not everyone wants to dive directly into a divorce just because things aren't the way that they should be. Sometimes people want to try to fix things and to do that it may take obtaining advice. What you call "whining", I consider to be expressing one's feelings about the issues they're dealing with and seeking any suggestions on what could be done to solve them.
You're response suggests that you'd run for divorce at the 1st sign of things not working out. Some people don't want to end their marriage when things are immediately sour. However, after obtaining all the advice they could retrieve, been to all the counselors they could afford, tried severals time to work things out with their spouse and things still don't work, then they'll consider the final alternative "divorce."
Therefore, it isn't fair of you to just accuse "enablers (like myself)" to be whiners who won't just shut up and divorce. Excuse me for trying to fight and find a way to fix what's broken.
Interesting reply considering what you wrote on your first post on TAM @ 12-07-2011, 08:37 AM (see below)
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.J.
I've been married for 3 years and I can't recall a moment of peace throughout this time. I've been seriously contemplating a divorce for a year now, but haven't actually made any moves. My husband and I are far from friends. We don't really talk or do anything together. There's no kissing, hugging, or cuddling in our marriage (with having said that you can imagine what else we're lacking). In the beginning I tried to be affectionate, but over time I got tired of initiating and just stopped.
I'm not attracted to him anymore and I'm definitely not proud to have him as my husband. I came into this marriage not realizing what I actually married into. I make much more money, he has 2 children by 2 different ridiculous women, and he doesn't have a great career. Financial disputes have definitely deteoriated the quality of our marriage. Most of the money he does make goes toward child support, which drives me crazy. I do feel really bad that the support payments have prevented him from providing in our marriage, but at the same time I wonder why this unfortunate fact doesn't give him drive to do more (like go back to school). I'm tired of supporting us. All the bills and everything else is on my dime. It's getting old. On top of that he's unappreciative. He's gotten to the point where he acts like I'm suppose to do it all.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not perfect. I've given him hell as well, but I PROMISE it's because I've felt so used and taken advantage of over the years. I mean I do so much and have to deal with so much baggage that it prevents me from being the sweet, kind, loving wife that I'm capable of being. I work all day, come home, cook, and clean while he sits and watches football. This is EVERYDAY. He doesn't do anything to try to make things easier for me.
My husband has a very poor attitude. He's very opinionated, strong willed, and think he knows everything. Everything in life is a conspiracy too (UGH!!!). He doesn't like to go anywhere or do anything unless it involves a sport.
So let's conclude this. I'm tired of never getting affection, paying for everything, never receiving nice things, never being told thank you or I'm sorry when he does something wrong, and dealing with these rats that he had children with. I'm tired of doing all the cooking and cleaning, while watching him sit on his tail and reap the benefits. How am I benefiting from this marriage? What do I have to gain by being married to this man?
I know this isn't suppose to be my life. I have a great career, no children, I'm fairly young, and I love living. I know I wasn't created to deal with kids that aren't mine, a lacking husband, and a lacking life. What are your thoughts????
1Likes
Re: When did men stop being men??? 
