But just because the men are checking the women out it doesnt mean that we respond! Please men give us oime credit. Most of us do have some self control!
If a woman is going to cheat there are many opportunities out there. And lets be honest here, most of the men who try and pick up women in bars are desperate jerks! Look at all the waywards on her, its just a guess but i bet the majority of cheating goea on in the work place or oldflamesreunited.com!!
No. Going hunting for the weekend is not the same as him going on a 4 night weekend to another state or wishing for a mini vacation to meet up with his online 'best friend'.
Yes, it surly is. Especially when he goes to Alaska every year to every other year, but a 10 night stay. He, too, meets up with his best friend or goes with a group of guys. I had the best time of my life meeting my online friend and staying on the Queen Mary for 4 nights! I see no difference. We both use fly miles, so the cost is the same. We plan to meet again hopefully on the FL beaches next year since I'm disabled with a neck injury and can not walk far. I can sit on the beach or relax in the ocean. He does a 4 night hunting trip with 7 friends every year, then his trip to Alsksa. I'm certainly entitled to my time off too, which he says I should go more often.
Funny thing is we are trying to set up our best friends on a date. Who knows, maybe they will hook up and my online best friend will move here with her kids! Posted via Mobile Device
I don't think this is a healthy attitude in a pro-marriage forum. Telling my wife to pound sand would usually be followed by a quick trip to the divorce attorney.
However, if the issue was that this guy can't trust her to go anywhere, an addendum that was tacked on after the GNO argument failed to gain ground, is well out of the scope of just a night at the club, in my opinion. Sounds like a marriage of two people who have some very serious issues - a woman trapped by a husband who shows no trust and respect, and a man who wants to lock her away. Marriage should be all about middle ground, but with trust and respect.
Next month, my wife is going to Tokyo with the 'girls'. We both get six weeks off every year, so she spends half her time in her own pursuits with friends. For her, its more about places like the national gallery of art, NY city, or time with friends. Together, we go to places we both enjoy. I also have the annual trip with my brother to a large indian reservation for a spirit walk. But for both of us, there are places where we've crossed off for the sake of unity. Just because one our group analysts wants to see me blush as I watch her show in her dad's strip club, I'm not going to push an area that would make my wife insecure. She doesn't do nightclubs, a thing that we settled well before uttering those two words of "I do". Still, I admire some of the posters who find unity in going there, and deal honestly about the risks. At the same time, I'm a knuckle dragger when it comes to the nightlife. If I want fun in the nightlife, I'm up for a good play, or even go out on the wild side and crash the local community center on dance night so my wife and I can dance a horrible waltz. Some of the other women I briefly dated, who liked the GNO lifestyle would've never considered actually walking down the isle with me, which is the real decision point in this whole drama.
Speaking of framing it unfairly .... where did she suggest she was going to a singles club to get drunk and dance with men looking to pick up women?
You're assuming plenty of facts not in evidence, counselor. Women can have a drink without getting drunk. Women can dance without rubbing themselves up against strange men. Women can go out for a night without ending up in bed with another man.
Really? I don't see me assuming any facts not in evidence. When was the last time you went to a dance club, junior high? Men are there looking to dance with women, not just leaning up against the wall. They may intend in the cold light of day to only dance amongst themselves, but that is not will happen once they get there. Men and women will be dancing around them and at some point they will be dancing with men. They won't automatically start grinding and flirting, but it is not an unrealistic possibility. They are also planning to drink enough that they did not want to drive but instead get a hotel room. Drinking that much impairs judgement.
No one said this automatically means they will fall in bed. But is sure as hell not unreasonable for the husbands to object.
I've always believe that along with facebook, one of the biggest threats to a marriage is a womans friends.
The vast majority of women who have GNO do so to have a good time bonding with their female friends. But it just takes that one bad seed friend to ruin things. I'm speaking from observational experience...it does happen. And next thing you know you go from having a wife who wanted a GNO once in a blue moon, to hitting the bars every weekend with her "friends". Then it becomes "you're trying to control me". Then it's "ILYBNILWY". Then it's getting the texting bill.......
No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying.
Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men. Locations can change without issue if that was the problem. In the past months we've tried to go to a movie, dinner, heck even lunch on a Saturday and got backtalk from that too so it's not just this one time.
This last part was added after I responded. Yes, it is a problem if they are preventing an sort of GNO (or even a girls day out). My issue was with the specific venue and activities, not the concept. My wife has GNO's every couple of months, were she get's together for dinner, sees a movie or checks out an event with a friend (last one was a cooking class). They are great and I encourage her to go.
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Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, we'll have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet, no. I have to wonder why she and I both are really allowing them to dictate our plans to begin with.
So again, why don't you object to this? Why do you put up with it?
I had to quit reading these posts. Take a pill people! Vaflower your husband and the other wives husbands sound like knuckle dragers.
Now I know many of you on this board have personal GNO horror stories but my wife has been on many and I have never had a worry. Of course my wife does not drink but she is a major flirt but I do not know of any instance when they have gone where they have placed themselves in an environment where anything inappropriate would happen.
Now I know a dozen plus men that have gone on hunting and fishing trips and were making detours to brothels and pick up bars and carrying on for years before one of the guys breaks down and tells his wife and the cat is out of the bag. I can count numerous divorces from these situations. I am aware of a Fire Chief the took and annual excursion with his crew and bought hookers for the entire staff on a "hunting" expedition. Guess what? Someone talked and everyone is divorced. From my personal knowledge vaflower I would be placing a GPS on your husbands car the next time he and the "boys" go on a "wildlife" adventure.
Tell your husband to pound sand.
In all seriousness, if I had a situation where I felt my wife was disrespecting me by going out to meat markets, getting drunk, dancing with other men and staying out all night and she told me to pound sand, that would be the end of the marriage. I would not deserve such disrespect.
You say your wife does not drink. Neither does mine. I enjoy drinking my self. But taking the drink out of this scenario is a major point. The husbands object to the mood altering use of alcohol going to meat markets to dance with other men and being out all night. You admit your wife is a flirt. How would you feel if she started taking up drinking and staying out all night in meat markets. Then she tells you to go pound sand. Good luck with that my friend. Alcohol is a major part of the issue here. It is about getting the women drunk enough to lower their inhibitions. It is part of the Kino escalation process of breaking down incremental small boundaries until you have her doing things would would not normally be comfortable with. Alcohol matters.
I don't think this is a healthy attitude in a pro-marriage forum. Telling my wife to pound sand would usually be followed by a quick trip to the divorce attorney.
However, if the issue was that this guy can't trust her to go anywhere, an addendum that was tacked on after the GNO argument failed to gain ground, is well out of the scope of just a night at the club, in my opinion. Sounds like a marriage of two people who have some very serious issues - a woman trapped by a husband who shows no trust and respect, and a man who wants to lock her away. Marriage should be all about middle ground, but with trust and respect.
Next month, my wife is going to Tokyo with the 'girls'. We both get six weeks off every year, so she spends half her time in her own pursuits with friends. For her, its more about places like the national gallery of art, NY city, or time with friends. Together, we go to places we both enjoy. I also have the annual trip with my brother to a large indian reservation for a spirit walk. But for both of us, there are places where we've crossed off for the sake of unity. Just because one our group analysts wants to see me blush as I watch her show in her dad's strip club, I'm not going to push an area that would make my wife insecure. She doesn't do nightclubs, a thing that we settled well before uttering those two words of "I do". Still, I admire some of the posters who find unity in going there, and deal honestly about the risks. At the same time, I'm a knuckle dragger when it comes to the nightlife. If I want fun in the nightlife, I'm up for a good play, or even go out on the wild side and crash the local community center on dance night so my wife and I can dance a horrible waltz. Some of the other women I briefly dated, who liked the GNO lifestyle would've never considered actually walking down the isle with me, which is the real decision point in this whole drama.
Yes, the OP did a bait and switch. One picture was painted that had to do with meat markets, being out all night, dancing with men and drinking heavily. It was inferred if not stated directly. While requests for elaboration came there was no elaboration so we were never challenged with our thoughts on what that was about.
Then it switches to yeah well any kind of GNO effectively. That is a whole other issue.
Was this purposely a bait and switch?
But this always happens on this topic.
I have over the top trust in my wife. If after 16 years of marriage she wanted to go out clubbing, dancing with other men, drinking, and staying out all night like the original post, I would let her know that that crossed my bundaries and would not be acceptable to me. I love my wife way more than myself, but that would not be the behavior of the wife I love.
Folks obviously have different boundaries. That is fine. What matters is whether the couples boundaries are even compatible. The OP presumably was asking for advice. Then switched the scenario. So she is bing told to tell her hubby to go pound sand. Whihc is fine. It is basically saying, divorce him over this. But she should make sure what she is telling him to pound sand over. The two scenarios are not remotely the same thing.
Do we know yet exactly what the proposed GNO entails?
And do we know yet why anyone going on a GNO would choose to go to a club and drink and dance, rather than a nice restaurant and/or a quiet pub somewhere? The whole 'girls night out' thing sounds rather close to 'girls gone wild' if you ask me. I just do not understand why any happily married woman would even WANT to go out to a rowdy club with her girlfriends.
After being in a marriage with little emotional investment made by my wife, the thought that she might actually object if I put myself in a situation where other women are involved would seem like a real treat.
Almost as if she cared about me and the marriage.
Tell her to pound sand? Heck no, I'd probably give her a hug. I guess it depends on your perspective.
In all seriousness, if I had a situation where I felt my wife was disrespecting me by going out to meat markets, getting drunk, dancing with other men and staying out all night and she told me to pound sand, that would be the end of the marriage. I would not deserve such disrespect.
You say your wife does not drink. Neither does mine. I enjoy drinking my self. But taking the drink out of this scenario is a major point. The husbands object to the mood altering use of alcohol going to meat markets to dance with other men and being out all night. You admit your wife is a flirt. How would you feel if she started taking up drinking and staying out all night in meat markets. Then she tells you to go pound sand. Good luck with that my friend. Alcohol is a major part of the issue here. It is about getting the women drunk enough to lower their inhibitions. It is part of the Kino escalation process of breaking down incremental small boundaries until you have her doing things would would not normally be comfortable with. Alcohol matters.
Your point is taken Entropy but I will bet you dollars to donuts in this situation the ones everyone should be concerned about are the husbands that and the "Hunters and Fisherman" who seem to be living under a double standard.
Do we know yet exactly what the proposed GNO entails?
And do we know yet why anyone going on a GNO would choose to go to a club and drink and dance, rather than a nice restaurant and/or a quiet pub somewhere? The whole 'girls night out' thing sounds rather close to 'girls gone wild' if you ask me. I just do not understand why any happily married woman would even WANT to go out to a rowdy club with her girlfriends.
Read my and SilverPanther's post. Posted via Mobile Device
Really? I don't see me assuming any facts not in evidence. When was the last time you went to a dance club, junior high? Men are there looking to dance with women, not just leaning up against the wall. They may intend in the cold light of day to only dance amongst themselves, but that is not will happen once they get there. Men and women will be dancing around them and at some point they will be dancing with men. They won't automatically start grinding and flirting, but it is not an unrealistic possibility. They are also planning to drink enough that they did not want to drive but instead get a hotel room. Drinking that much impairs judgement.
No one said this automatically means they will fall in bed. But is sure as hell not unreasonable for the husbands to object.
I am not saying that they will have intercourse with anyone. I am saying that doing what they said they would do is unfaithful to me period if they are going against their husbands feelings.
They are putting themselves in a risky situation. They know the men want to nail them. They enjoy dressing seductively. They enjoy the attention. They enjoy lowering their inhibitions with alochol. They enjoy the sexual tension with the men. Ok fine. Lets just not make it that they are bonding with the girls only. The men are a key piece to the fun. It is absolutely about being with and being seen by the men. Sooooo. If this is not the case then ladies, remove the men from the situation. Simple. A GNO is a Girls Night Out. Many want to make it a Girls Night Out with other men. Some husbands are fine with that. If so, go for the gold.
Instigation, Isolation and Escalation.
The women have reduced the approach anxiety by isolating themselves from thier hubbys in time and space. So they are not near thier mate. By saying they are not coming home, now they are isolated over a known time. If they are at a hotel, what would be the harm in the group having drinks with the guys back at the hotel bar. The guys may not be invited but they will know what hotel the ladies are staying in. So the guys will be there. Hey why not share a cab. It is a sequence of seemingly innocent events that leads to big trouble. It is a Kino escalation.
The men will attempt to isolate the women one at a time from the group. The wingman approach is often used. So it's like, "where is Susan?" "I dunno she went outside with Tony." "I think they were going to go get some coffee." "Susan is not used to drinking this much so Tony is helping her out ...." Tony is telling Susan how lovely she is and how if she was his wife he would treat her special. He has been looking for someone liker her for a long time. Tells her a sad story about a lost love, all the while running a Kino, by brushing her arm and holding her hand and in general breaking down her barriers. The alcohol has been a little too much for Susan. She is now isolated with Tony. Her hsuband would be livid if he knew but she is a strong independent woman and can take care of herself. Her husband is jealous, controlling and insecure after all. Not like Tony at all. Tony is fun and really knows how to relate to a woman. By the time they head back to someones hotel he has his arm around her helping her walk. She loves her husband and would never cheat on him but this is really a nice guy who knows how to treat a woman and he is kinda hot too. He has wonderful eyes and is in much better shape than her husband. She loves Tony's confidence. Too bad her husband spends so much time working or with his buddies ... Besides she has not had such a good time since she left college when she was single.
Part of the allure is the flirting with the danger of the situation. The men know this and appreciate the women taking the risk as it is indicator of some level of interest in men other than their husbands. That makes them a target. Some men speciialize in these ladies.
Now while this is over the top, so is this thread ... now. What happens when they get back to the hotel is besides the point. This was some fun stuff for Susan. Next time she goes on a GNO she will either see that she made some mistakes this time and is the wiser for it. OR, she keeps pushing the boundaries. Once boundaries start sliding there really are no longer boundaries. There becomes a false sense of security. This time maybe Tony and her exchanged phone numbers and such and no bodily fluids. But Susan is a little more into this lifestyle than before. Her hubby is a little less exciting. She is a little less satisfied with her life. Sure she may go home and bang the heck out of her hubby. But is it that she misses and appreciates him or is it because she was so excited over playing with the boys. I am not judging this. Not really. My issue is with the couple being in agreement on these activities. Some husbands don't care that their wives get all fired up in this way because they may end up having some better sex afterwards.
Realistically the women are just more likely to have one or more of them degrade themselves badly in public. Like vomiting in the gutter. The unfaithfulness is probably going to be more of a fantasy as they dance up close with the guy that is moving against her. Maybe there is some groping going on and a little dry humping. Perhaps some making out. But this scenario can fire off in a very dangerous direction. Drinks can be altered. Easily. No I do not think a person has to intend to cheat to be unfaithful. So some folks just view this as a bit of fun. YMMV.
I remember a good friend of mine the year before his divorce that he told his wife as she left for Vegas not to do anything she could not wash off.
I reiterate GNOs are essential and healthy. But what a GNO entails matters and should be agreed upon by the couples IMO. And again it works both way.
Your point is taken Entropy but I will bet you dollars to donuts in this situation the ones everyone should be concerned about are the husbands that and the "Hunters and Fisherman" who seem to be living under a double standard.
You may be right. I suspect our feelings on this stuff are pretty close to each others.
I absolutely think that each of the scenarios have their own answers.
I bet these guys are jerks frankly. I can't tell though.
IF they are out having guy time on trips away and they begrudge their wives some time with their friends they are idiots.
I think most of us would agree that there needs to be no double standard and the freedoms of the couple need to be equivalent. This can get tricky as the genders are a bit different. Meaning women may indeed like clubbing and the guys may want to go get lap dances. I see a married woman dancing with a guy and a man getting a lap dance about the same thing. It is not absolutely the same. I actually see the dancing has having more potential for mischief than the lap dance. But I digress.
I think that maybe just maybe this stuff is a symptom of bigger problems folks.
I do think that the proposal that involved meeting up with the husbands later on was not a bad one at all. Big issues are likely to happen late in the the evening at the after party rather than in the first couple of hours. Plus there is a throttling of potential crazy behavior if everyone knows they are meeting up later.
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Re: The girls night out debacle... 
