shy_guy

FrenchFry, you sound very passionate about this.

All I can say is that some of us know from very painful experience in many areas that things we did not set out with intent to do is exactly what we wound up doing. It's a lesson we should learn regardless of what area of our lives we did this, and we should recognize our humanity when entering into a place of high temptation.

The question was, "why would guys do this?" I think many guys have answered why. I don't think you're going to convince them otherwise, and that may be in part due to experience they are not willing to share. You can disagree whether or not it is right for them to think that way - it's your life. Can you understand why they might think that, though?

Lon

Frank, it is clear to both of us on the many threads we both comment on that our viewpoints and experiences are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. It was not all that long ago (less than a year) that I felt so strongly as you do, that if you love someone, and feel that they love you, there is no reason to assume you would ever intentionally do something that knowingly hurts your partner... everyone has weaknesses and makes mistakes, but in a healthy marriage you don't question each other that way because it only fuels paranoia which fuels discontent, which fuels hurtful behaviors, which fuels deception, lying and utter contempt. The thing is, other sources can also get you to that point of contempt, such as not actively protecting your relationship, not defining or enforcing appropriate boundaries, not communicating etc.

I will admit I am totally biased, if I sound patronizing it is because my cheating wife caused me to lose by blind faith in marriages, and trust in the basic goodness in people, and mostly I realize that my hypothesis for life (which was very similar to what yours seems to be) has been disproven. In this I have also found so many other examples of betrayed spouses, men in particular, who have been burned in the same way and we're trying to figure out if the problem was us, our spouse, or just the way we viewed attraction and relationships. We all realize that the old way we saw things (blind trust as you seem to staunchly support) was naive. What we are professing here are some universal truths that we could only learn the hard way, we are not here to vent any disdain for strong women, we are here because we know how much pain it causes when innocent assumptions suddenly become hundreds of teeth on the bonesaw that suddenly tears its way through a loyal spouse, and hopefully someone can be spared that unecessary pain by us contributing here.

You have never been cut with that bonesaw, so please just listen when we say it is the most agonizing thing a person will ever face. My russian roulette analogy was just that, and you missed the point that the only way to win is to not play. Unless winning means getting thrills at the risk of the ones you leave behind at home.

Entropy3000

Shades of gray my friend. And if you look at my point it is not about cheating. It is about inappropriate behavior and unfaithfulness.

If one woman in fifty puts out for these guys does that make it a foregone conclusion. One in a thousand? How about one in ten?

I bet I could get on a clear straight highway at 20 miles an hour and close my eyes for some period of time. It is not a forgone conclusion that I would kill myself though I might deserve it. Sober I might be able to hanlde this for quite some time as I could tell to some extent if I was getting off onto the shoulder.

So now lets add a little speed ( car speed Frank ), some alcohol and some curves ( not female curves but maybe there is synergy there too ). I can handle it. I am not weak. I would argue the weakness is in doing this stupid thing to begin with however. But I might pull it off. It is not a foregone conclusion. It is about risk versus reward.

It would be a real thrill. So maybe this is ok on a controlled track. I should be free to do this if I want.
For some men their wives would be all for it. Just make sure the insurance is paid up.

You love the whole burqa thing don't you. There is life Frank between the burqa and the drunken GNO with other men. The over whelming majority of people in the world live in between those two extremes.

Hey why not just go to Hedonism VI once a year. It's just once a year. Leave your burqa home and your bathing suit too. Just harmless fun.

I actually give people more credit than this. People are not so weak that they have to decide between these two options. They can make adult choices in the gray areas. Boundaries help. Talking to your spouse helps.

FrenchFry

LOL yeah I am passionate about this. I actually do get where the guys who have issues with this and I absolutely get why people would be uncomfortable with girls/guys night out. I can't count the times I've been on the recieving end of some heavy flattery from men who for some reason see me as vulnerable, and you are right it absolutely doesn't stop them with a ring on your finger. I don't think I'm particularly unique though when I say I don't care/buy into it, because I do know where my bread is buttered.

I'm passionate about this because I ended relationships because of this fundamental disagreement as to exactly what me and my friends are doing. It was definitely the right thing to do because if a person is going to be hurt no matter what steps I take to ensure a pleasurable cheat free time, we weren't right for each other. My husband gets it, so I married him

I'm also passionate about it because I don't think it's fair to throw all women under the same bus when it comes to going out. I just want to make it clear, hey, some of us really like dancing and don't give a crap about the other men.

For the record, I am a twenty-something, my husband is a thirty something and we don't go out much at all anymore because we have diapers to buy.
Posted via Mobile Device

shy_guy

I understand. We have different sets of standards in place. In my long post earlier, I told how I passed on taking certain trips, or how I turned down certain venues with colleagues and why. I'm more proactive because at 47, I have a few places where I've done what I said before and done exactly what I was absolutely sure I would not do. I hurt other people with what I did on at least one of those, too. I'm familiar with my humanity. I don't want to have the same experience when my wife and family can be hurt so badly by my actions, so I will be proactive in not entering into that temptation. To me, it's not a matter of "Does she trust me," so much as it is a matter of "Don't give it the chance to happen."

We have a lot of fun. Two of our kids are out of college and only one is still at home, and we're now financially where we can have a lot more freedom and enjoy a lot more. I love the family I have. I love it that my wife will partner with me to keep me out of temptation. I just do the same thing for her. I don't consider that she's being controlling when she partners with me like this - I appreciate the extra safety net. I'm not sure I would have gotten to this point in my marriage (27 years) if I had not been willing to accept partnership from my wife in areas like this. Fortunately, I can look back now and be happy that I can wonder if I would be here rather than being broken, or worrying about broken kids because I didn't.

That's pretty much how I look at it. I trust her. She trusts me. We partner with each other proactively when we see a potential danger. I appreciate that. She appreciates that. It's not controlling, it's respect.

Cheers.

Entropy3000

Good stuff FrenchFry. We need to follow our personal priorities and so on for sure.

It seems your hubby went into this with eyes wide open ( not eyes wide shut which is an interesting movie for its own reasons ). Coolness.

Part of why I chose my wife is that she was not into this lifestyle. I was ready for a change myself. If at some point out of the blue she wanted to start doing this I would have special concern if for nothing else than the big change.

So in your opinion, if a woman were to make such a change after 16 years of marriage and started doing all nighters in the manner described by the OP might she be any different than yourself? I know there would be indiviudal differences but all else equal might she be less savvy? Serious question.

FrankKissel

Lon,

First, I don't at all mean to demean or minimize your experiences. If I've done that, I apologize.

That said, I do sometimes feel it necessary to offer views/opinions that run contrary to the general tone around here. That tone, which understandably results from so many of the frequent posters having been betrayed at some time in some way, is one that everyone is either cheating, or in serious peril of cheating, and that nearly every situation is fraught with danger.

I can understand - and sympathize - how so many feel that way, but I can also point out that situations like your own, as terrible as they are, fortunately are the exception. The fact is the large majority of people don't cheat and the vast majority of the situations described as dangerous around here - GNOs, business trips, etc. - don't end in infidelity. I'm sure that's little comfort to those who've been betrayed, but it is what it is.

Look no further than the thread started by the guy who was worried about his wife's upcoming business trip. Turns out, there was nothing for him to worry about. Yet people here had the guy so riled up and so convinced that he was about to be betrayed that he actually moved out on his wife of 25 years. Think about that for a moment. A bunch of strangers who've never met this man or his wife, and know nothing about them other than what he's chosen to disclose here, arguably put his marriage in peril. Or at the least put it in a bad, bad place. That's scary. It's even scarier that after he's come back and said the situation has been resolved favorably, some are still telling him his wife may be cheating on him. Ugh.

I don't for a second mean to suggest that my opinion is any more - or less - valid than anyone else's. And, like anyone else's view around here, you're free to disagree or ignore mine.

Lastly, please don't assume I don't protect my marriage, have boundaries, communicate or have a naive hypothesis of life. To the contrary, I work very hard to protect my marriage, have boundaries and communicate incessantly.
Best wishes.

FrenchFry

Posted via Mobile Device

Toffer

For me, the hardest part of this whole issue is the fact that there is the overnight stay in the hotel. I personally have no problem with my wife going out with her girlfriends for some drinks and maybe a meal. They typically don't do clubs but may go to a place with a dance floor but they do prefer to go somewhere they can talk.

They've also taken turns having it at each other's homes and again, it's the conversation and comradiere they are seeking. they aren't dressing up in clubbing clothes and even exposing themselves to any hint of trouble.

Even though I trust my wife 100%, I have to say I'd be a little concerned if she was planning on drinking AND staying over night. Through in the clubbing issue and while I know I could trust her, I too know that there will be guys hitting on her because she is beautiful and fun!

Do it locally, and have your man be the one to pick you up at 1 AM when the bar closes

FrenchFry

Whoops, having a smartphone doesn't mean the user is.

I read the OP a little closer Entropy and it's clear that yeah, we are talking about two pretty different scenarios. I'd be concerned for any overnight trip my husband took doing an activity in which he'd never done before...like if he was all "I'M GOING HUNTING!" especially as he's an animal lover. Her husband has a point there.

I can't speak as to what her motivation is besides "going out," but I do sense her frustration with her husband/his friend in the uh...vagblocking of any activity that she and her girlfriend may try to do, and that this may be an escalation which isn't exactly a positive state of mind to be going out with and may in fact make a person emotionally susceptible.

In her case, I think there are red flags and precautions that she could take to make her husband more comfy (meeting him later, not crashing overnight, checking in etc.) or change the activity all together but if he keeps denying any time out at all, I'd hate to be all "pound sand" but...
Posted via Mobile Device

Toffer

[QUOTE=sinnister;584059]I've always believe that along with facebook, one of the biggest threats to a marriage is a womans friends.

The vast majority of women who have GNO do so to have a good time bonding with their female friends. But it just takes that one bad seed friend to ruin things.



After some of my wife's GNOs, she has relayed stories to me about some of the things her girlfriends have said about their significant others. Some things so bad that you wonder why are they even together? I could see that with the right amount of booze thrown in and the safe haven of a hotel room, it isn't too much of a stretch to see something happening.

Don't get me wrong, guys are no better! But as people often have said, what if the situation was reversed and the roles too? What if we were in a society where woman were the pursuers and men the ones sought after? Would it bother the OP if her husband announced that he was going clubbing (wearing those tight jeans that show off his package), drinking and staying overnight knowing that women would want to grind his behind???

Lon

Frank, thank you for your well composed and thoughtful response. I certainly never felt like you have been demeaning in any way, though I do feel that many commenters including you do tend to minimize the value of comments by betrayed spouses on here, usually citing that majority of people are not cheaters and thus suggestions of such behavior is not well-founded.

While my experiences have changed my perspective drastically since before I was cheated on, I personally think contributions from betrayed spouses are an invaluable gift, that frequently get dismissed, often from new posters who think we are just jaded people that want to drag everyone else down.

I do agree with you that some people love to come on here and throw the affair card all over the place, even when I too think it is unecessary and sometimes even destructive. From the numerous threads I've read here though I can so easily see the pattern of red flags, the script, and so when it is so painfully obvious I will not hesitate to make sure those whom spouses are in all likelihood cheating get the 2x4 to the head when they need it. I also don't like to pull that card unless their spouse is taking material from the cheaters script. In fact in many threads I have often suggested to suspicious OP's that their fears are unfounded (one today even).

The reason I'm on this thread is partially because the club scene is a trigger for me, but mostly because I know just what the bars/nightclub scene is really about and it bothers me that so many people dismiss the threat that kind of atmosphere poses to relationships... COguy said it best way back, just one person tell me what the benefit of these places are? It really isn't just about "dancing" but that seems to be the innocent justification that is frequently used, clubs are about a sexual formula used to get people to loosen their inhibitions and their wallets.

I agree that every couple has the right to define their own boundaries, for some having a spouse that parties without them at the club is acceptable even it if is risky. And also Frank, I apologize for calling you naive, I don't know you and was just getting defensive about feeling like my opinion was being minimized due to my experience.

Entropy3000

vagblocking .... love it and very fair comment.

Yeah if her hubby was denying her being with her friends period for activities then I agree she has to make a decision about being with this guy at all.

Maybe her point was really about the guys. It probably was. She felt if they did certain things she could too. I agree with that. But just what really are the guys doing? They may very well be jerks. Perhaps as some have stated the focus should be on what the husbands are doing.

Halien

What I find so interesting is that for every assumption we make when it comes to our risks of cheating, we can always find exceptions, thats why I really like to see posts where people really understand what trust means in their marriage. Some agree to behave conservatively, but some like the night life. Yet both extremes, if they really have an understanding of trust in their marriage, have great marriages.

Talking about exceptions, I had once mentioned how in college I passed by a room where the young woman had firm boundaries, but didn't understand her alcohol tolerance, and she was being raped. The guy had taken her from a club to his nearby co-ed dorm. I was the paper guy, and broke into the dorm room after hearing her confused protests, and ended up staying with her at the hospital until she was okay with me leaving. Yet you see people every day who know exactly how much they can tolerate, and stop there.

I trust my wife of 24 years completely. She is incredibly firm in her fidelity. She is so attractive, and in a medical field where advances were really common in the early years, so I had to learn to trust her (Okay, so I did almost break a surgeon's wrist when he kept ignoring her warnings).

There are risks in certain situations, and the testosterone-driven side of me really wants to stake my territory sometimes, but I personally refuse to cross the line into accepting the statement that women cannot help themselves in certain situations. Attraction isn't some undeniable entity that always overcomes even a married woman. If she has her eyes on what's really important to her, the response to attraction becomes a choice.

PaGuy

Your so right, ALL men have done this, myself included. THANK YOU. These guys are so hypocritical its ok for them to go do guy stuff, such as bars/women etc. etc. But the minute the wife wants to, it becomes time to be a *ick. WTF, you guys need to lighten up and deal with your insecurity issues. Realize this, if she is going to cheat on you, its going to happen no matter what you say or do.