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Old 02-29-2012, 12:19 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ladies what do you really want?

SprucHub, maybe we're twins seperated at birth? Noticed you're from NY. I work in NYC and live in NJ. A bit too weird. maybe it's the region (nature vs nuture?)

I know my wife has told me that there are different things that "turn her on" and "get her in the mood" and they include such mundane tasks as me cleaning up the dinner dishes, making coffee for her on the weekends and bringing it to her and things like that.

We also try and spend some time together each night holding hands and sitting next to each other even if it's only for an hour or two in front of the TV. It's all good but I need more!

Just for laughs, I'll site one more example. She wanted us to get a new fridge fro the kitchen just after the holidays and move the old one to the garage for "over flow". Finally found the one we wanted and bought it. She was very happy about this since she new spending this type of money just after Christmas was a liitle bit of a budget stretcher and said something to the affect that I was going to get "new fridge sex" that night (it was a Friday night) during the card ride home from buying it.

However, before we got home, a friend of hers called inviting us to meet them for dinner. I guess I foolishly left the answer up to her and she even mentioned we shouldn't because of the money we just spent but she agreed. Guess I was hoping she'd just want to get me home and jump my bones!

Regardless, we had a good time with this other couple and I had one margrita (wanted to keep my wits about me because this place makes em strong) and she had two.....guess you see where this is going.

By the time we got home a little after 9, she was falling asleep on the couch again and the whole thought of "fridge sex" somehow went away. I just told her to go to bed and I'd be in shortly. I didn't even try to get her going because while I wasn't rejected outright, I wasn't feeling like she really wanted me. It almost felt like that by telling me she'd have sex with me for buying her the new fridge (romantic gift, right?) she was "paying" me for it. That's not the way the original comment was made though. It was truly made in a very loving and sexy way but as it all falls apart in front of you, your mind does crazy stuff.

It's like you said, it's all about wanting to be desired by the person you've pledged to be with your entire life. Don't get me wrong, there are times when just the act feels like it's enough but that only lasts for so long.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:49 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ladies what do you really want?

So anyhow we did have a talk last night and I guess it helped to open the dialogue more. As I stated earlier it is the classic not feeling connected emotionally thus not attracted. I do indersrand that and respect it but still leaves us stuck because when I do not get that physical connection I am not as tuned into how I act or speak. I am not a jerk but it just feels like friends which is so tough for me. Of course the clearest path appears to be working in that emotional connection and then the physical should improve but as I stated before that has not really played out that way before. So she feels frustrated with me as she is seeing the MC without me. I just can't go because it proved so poorly last time. If I thought would help I would go. You see last time I really focused on things and even the counselor pointed out how thus was clearly a change but my wife never warmed up. She told me well it is great but I dont trust it. That went in for several months and I never got more of the physical connection.....yes sex and all that goes with that. You see where I am stuck? Of course I will do my best to be a good husband and partner but dam it is hard when I know she does not think of me the same way I think of her.
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:06 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ladies what do you really want?

Veryconfused, I know what you mean.

However, by not going to MC with her, you are adding fuel to her fire about. You said "She told me well it is great but I dont trust it."

Perhaps a comprise might be to try a different counselor you both agree on? If one of you is not comfortable with the counselor, you should keep looking until you find someoen you both like.

You may want to explore IC on your own too. At least that way your wife can see that you're serious about trying to be a better person and in the end of all of this, the only one you can truly change is yourself.

I've come to this realization too but at 50 years old, seeing as how my wife is pretty perfect in all other ways, I am not yet ready to call it quits! Every now and then there's a spark, a glimmer of hope that keeps me holding on. Perhaps I'm grasping at straws and eventually this issue will come to a crashing thunderhead and will result in hurt feelings but I know that it will have to work itself out one way or another
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:10 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ladies what do you really want?

No the MC was fine. My wife said our improvement was great but she did not trust it. That went In for months it really felt like I was on a constant 2nd date. She never came around I felt like a fool.
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:37 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ladies what do you really want?

I understand but being where you are now, after trying for a few months haven't you proven to your wife that she was right not to trust the changes?

Don't get me wrong, I've been on the same side of broken promises when it comes to affection so I know what you mean but again, the only person you can improve is you.

Perhaps you might want to consider where you'll be in a year or two if this keeps up. Would you see yourself possibly divorcing over this issue? If so, the best course of action for you would be to improve yourself for your next relation(s).
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:52 PM   #96 (permalink)
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That was almost two years ago and my point was she never came around. And since then yes I suppose I have regressed some but what can a guy do? We are stuck but I love her. Just not sure what is the best path.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:44 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ladies what do you really want?

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Originally Posted by veryconfusedhusband View Post
So anyhow we did have a talk last night and I guess it helped to open the dialogue more. As I stated earlier it is the classic not feeling connected emotionally thus not attracted. I do indersrand that and respect it but still leaves us stuck because when I do not get that physical connection I am not as tuned into how I act or speak. I am not a jerk but it just feels like friends which is so tough for me. Of course the clearest path appears to be working in that emotional connection and then the physical should improve but as I stated before that has not really played out that way before. So she feels frustrated with me as she is seeing the MC without me. I just can't go because it proved so poorly last time. If I thought would help I would go. You see last time I really focused on things and even the counselor pointed out how thus was clearly a change but my wife never warmed up. She told me well it is great but I dont trust it. That went in for several months and I never got more of the physical connection.....yes sex and all that goes with that. You see where I am stuck? Of course I will do my best to be a good husband and partner but dam it is hard when I know she does not think of me the same way I think of her.
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From the outset, I'd like to say that my comments are not aimed at the men on this thread, but are aimed instead on some basic paradigms that seem to exist on this site.

Prior to last year, I had never seen a site that discussed marital issues. Culturally, since both of my grandmothers were from a native american people who were loosely aligned to the Cherokee, and I lived with one grandmother off and on through childhood, most of my healthy views of marriage came through this culture. Among her people, your beliefs shaped your heritage, and it wasn't shaped by the percentage of her tribe's blood in your veins. The difference, maybe subtle, was that sexuality was a natural part of a person from the early days, and not just something that decended on you in the middle teenage years. Just saying that differences in the way a person perceived sexuality was as naturally different as other parts of your personality. And the way that it was expressed in a relationship was different.

My point is that when we encounter problems like the men go through in a thread like this, it may not be as simple as some of the arguments back and forth try to make it. Its not fair to lump certain women in a low sex drive category, because it may include a category where women haven't really understood their sexuality well enough to convey it to their partner. Maybe it can be helpful to really look into the paradigms we brought into in marriage instead, at least to try to understand each other's point of view without all the frustration.

Commonly on this site, I see men who are hurt because their wife doesn't initiate sex often enough. We put it into words that declare that it should be her responsibility to make the same effort we do. Somewhere along the line, we link this to something like a cultural expectation that a woman is right if she complies to this norm, and wrong if she doesn't. Maybe I'm naive, but it seems like if I ask my wife and her friends what the cultural norm is, they will describe a completely different set of expectations. And then everyone piles a load of pride and self-respect upon making it fit into these cultural norms. So, if a wife says that she needs an emotional connection, in a sense we add that item to this checklist and try to squeeze it into the program on a daily basis.

I don't mean to demean the way that people describe the problem. We all know that a complex idea gets lost or watered down when we try to put it into words. Really, the whole point of trying to focus on this paradigm is to only bring up the point that there is a very complex set of traits that make up individual sexuality that tends to be standardized through this whole discussion.

My grandmother's people talked about individual sexuality using spiritual terms that don't really have meaning outside of their culture. One story told is about how a warrior tried to win a woman's heart with gifts, bringing simple items, but the one who captured her heart showed her a colorful scene within a forest, because he understood that her needs were very complex, and well beyond his own. But once he showed her this, her heart was always his. The point was that her sexuality was complex, and it is only won through respecting the uniqueness of it. Maybe this part sounds like an extreme oversimplification, but when my wife and I went through marriage counseling with a native american counselor, she had no background with my beliefs, and was surprised by the frank nature of the discussions about the need to throw away assumptions about paradigms and start over with just a focus on understanding each other's sexuality. Instead of focusing completely on the sex act itself, the counselor would jokingly say that this would work itself out in a few years, but we had to understand the spirit within first. He was talking about understanding that complex combination of feelings like enticement, boldness, passion and security within our spouse that makes them really look forward to sex.

For us, though, since I was mixed heritage, I would say that the practical way that we helped my wife overcome some of her reservations about sex was through reading about the tantric principles behind tantric sex. It helped us express needs and interests more clearly, and build a good connection as a couple.

Not sure if this helps much, because I'm far from an expert. Still I think we can all benefit from examining the paradigms that we take for granted.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:42 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ladies what do you really want?

Toffer - I work in NYC too, just take the train east to get home, not west. Yeah, my W needs time together to get in the mood. And, she cannot be too tired. Sometimes we do not have that time. I always have time for her, even when she's sleeping.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:49 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ladies what do you really want?

What you do is LEAVE,if you have tried every thing and she is not really putting in then you have two choices,just put up with it or file the papers show them to her and tell her you are done.Do you think if something happens to you she will act this way towards a new man,a new guy would not put up with it so she would change real quick.

You said she is like your sister ,so just make her your friend not your wife.The big problem is people just stay in these kind of relationships and the other person knows they will not make a more,so I say make a move and if she wants you she will change quickly.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:53 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Don't have a clue how to tell you to fix it! Don't know how to fix it myself....I have an absolutely wonderful husband who has always done his fair share and more! I'm a nurse and he's a paramedic. We have 2 grown children and have been married for almost 28 years. Sometimes I don't know how he has put up with me over the years. I have told him in the past that if I could have ordered him from a catalog he is exactly what I would have ordered. However we have gone for extended periods of time without having sex. Not that I don't think he's one of the sexiest men alive but I just seem to be so tired and just don't care. There have been many times that I have iniated sex just to be shot down because he didn't want "charity" sex. I hate that I have made the man that I love more than my next breath fell this way. I have damaged his ego...there have been many times when I really was in the mood that he said "you better go to sleep - I'm on my side of the bed" ...there have also been many times that I have iniated things just because I love him and want to please him. It has caused hard feelings to both of us. What I would say is don't think that she doesn't love you with all that she is and don't think that she dosen't think your the sexiest man alive...some of us females are just wired a little different and sex isn't so important to us all the time. Good luck...just remember no matter who your with it's alot of work! Even if you love them more than anything in the world
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Old 03-01-2012, 05:16 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ladies what do you really want?

I think the problem is that women in general seem to think that having sex should result in fireworks every time. There are different levels of sex just like there are different levels of everything. In another thread someone equated sex to food. Sometimes you get the full five course dinner complete with prime rib, scalloped potatoes, perfectly aged and chilled wine and cherries jubilee for desert. Sometimes you are too tired to go to all that trouble so you just throw together a cheese sandwich. Believe me, while most men would love the five course dinner every night, the cheese sandwich is ok too. Women need to remember that for a man sex is closeness. We can't demonstrate affection and tenderness when we constantly feel rejected. So if the OPs wife finds him attractive and is pleased with him as a husband why can't she throw a couple of cheese sandwiches his way so he doesn't starve. Maybe the closeness she's looking for will magically materialize for her if she does.
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:22 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ladies what do you really want?

Halien, speaking for myself, "I see men who are hurt because their wife doesn't initiate sex often enough. We put it into words that declare that it should be her responsibility to make the same effort we do." this isn't my issue. Sure, if my wife intiated more I'd be thrilled.

I think the issue for some of us is a multi-layered one. I do know that my wife needs a connection and I do what I can to foster that. However, from what I've read in recent months men need the physical aspect of sex to make the same emotional connection with our wives that they need before they want to have sex with us. Sounds a bit like the ole chicken and the egg. Good can be cruel like that sometimes!

I think the issue for a lot of us stems with not just the lack of intiation but also the rejection experienced when our advances are turned away, either directly (I have a headache) or (which seems to be the case more often in my case) indirectly (wife falls asleep after a glass of wine).

Your example of the warrior and his target of desire is interesting and does have some great points. What it doesn't illustrate is that I think that a women's complexity changes over time so it's not as simple as figuring out the complexities of a woman just once but on an ongoing basis. It seems that some men, after battling this puzzle take the direct route and ask their wives what is it they need. They are told, they do what they've been asked and yet there is either a temporary change or none at all, hence an increasing level of frustration.

SprucHub, I try to make time for my wife too, especially on the weekends. I genuinely enjoy being with her and spending time with her and she tells me the same. We'll often run errands together not because we have to but because we want to be with each other. Sounds great right? You'd think so.

Dubbizle, I was starting to go in your direction too with the OP. Since he is younger than I am and has less time invested in this marriage, he may want to consider moving on. I am not a huge believer in either divorce or staying together.

Jessie, you seem closer to my circumstances (we've been married 26 years, 3 kids (13, 18, 20)) and there have been times where I have felt the same as it sounds like your husband has (charity sex). I have to tell you it is a definite ego crusher for men. Like women, I feel that every now and then, we want to be pursued and felt like we are truly desired. I know my wife loves me and thinks I'm pretty great in many aspects and like you, she doesn't think sex is as important "all the time". It's the "all the time" comment that I take issue with. If you don't mind me asking, how often do you two manage to have sex weekly/monthly?

I know being in a maariage is a lot of constant work and I'm more than willing to do the work but I think the issue is What the Hell is the Work we're Supposed to Be Doing???

Beowulf, while I enjoyed your point of view (and now I want a grilled cheese sandwich for lunch today!) it's not completely applicable to my case but I don't disagree with it!
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:41 AM   #103 (permalink)
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I think the issue for a lot of us stems with not just the lack of intiation but also the rejection experienced when our advances are turned away, either directly (I have a headache) or (which seems to be the case more often in my case) indirectly (wife falls asleep after a glass of wine).
Why do you assume that she intentionally rejects you when she falls asleep after a glass of wine or a couple of margaritas?

Quote:
Jessie, you seem closer to my circumstances (we've been married 26 years, 3 kids (13, 18, 20)) and there have been times where I have felt the same as it sounds like your husband has (charity sex). I have to tell you it is a definite ego crusher for men. Like women, I feel that every now and then, we want to be pursued and felt like we are truly desired. I know my wife loves me and thinks I'm pretty great in many aspects and like you, she doesn't think sex is as important "all the time". It's the "all the time" comment that I take issue with. If you don't mind me asking, how often do you two manage to have sex weekly/monthly?
I want to give a different perspective on the "charity sex". I am in a different place, as our sex life is pretty good, but I do get it a 3-4 times a month. My wife is not really feeling it, but she knows it is important to me and to us. To me, that is a gift from her to show her love for me. She is giving me something when, at least physically, she is not getting much from it. Think of it like the time you skipped the big game to do something important with your wife. It is a sign of love.

I will also say that about half time she offers the "charity sex" she ends up getting into it as much or more than I am. That will also often lead to her initiating in the next couple of days. Her making herself available is a chance for me to turn her on.

Things were not always great with my wife, and I do understand how the pity sex can wreck havoc on the desire. I just want you to remember that once you get things going, don't automatically rejected those offers if you see them coming from a good place in her.
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:50 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Halien, speaking for myself, "I see men who are hurt because their wife doesn't initiate sex often enough. We put it into words that declare that it should be her responsibility to make the same effort we do." this isn't my issue. Sure, if my wife intiated more I'd be thrilled.

I think the issue for some of us is a multi-layered one. I do know that my wife needs a connection and I do what I can to foster that. However, from what I've read in recent months men need the physical aspect of sex to make the same emotional connection with our wives that they need before they want to have sex with us. Sounds a bit like the ole chicken and the egg. Good can be cruel like that sometimes!

I think the issue for a lot of us stems with not just the lack of intiation but also the rejection experienced when our advances are turned away, either directly (I have a headache) or (which seems to be the case more often in my case) indirectly (wife falls asleep after a glass of wine).

Your example of the warrior and his target of desire is interesting and does have some great points. What it doesn't illustrate is that I think that a women's complexity changes over time so it's not as simple as figuring out the complexities of a woman just once but on an ongoing basis. It seems that some men, after battling this puzzle take the direct route and ask their wives what is it they need. They are told, they do what they've been asked and yet there is either a temporary change or none at all, hence an increasing level of frustration.
I certainly understand your points, Toffer. What I was really trying to get at is saying yes, the situation is very troubling, and can make a guy very angry, but how does this paradigm actually fix the problem in the case where a man is not ready to divorce over it?

Understand that I mean this with much respect for the men in this thread, but is it really likely that she wouldn't want an intimacy that makes her feel the same as she did when she was dating you? Or, if she no longer wants it, is it possible that she just lost hope that she could make it happen within herself?

When she was dating, there was this hard to describe feeling that made her want to have her husband's hands all over her. When she felt this feeling, sex was natural, because it was the fuel of her desire. We westerners tend to try to conceptualize it in terms like the ingredients of making a great meal. "I'll give her more time out of my schedule, and she will want sex." What it really is, however, is trying to understand her sexuality, and what triggers those feelings within her.

What I'm saying is that the sex shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be this complex, hard to describe feeling within her. With my wife, what triggers that feeling is that she perceives that everything else in my life becomes invisible to me when she enters the room. That I can't get enough of her. It took time for her to learn to search for that same thing within me, since it is much simpler to evoke in a man. When it comes to something that actually fixes the problem, does anger and resentment guilt her into experiencing this feeling?

Its just an opinion, but I think that through whatever means that impact her, she begins to lose this connection to her desire, and can't seem to recover it. Eventually, maybe she even becomes jaded, thinking that real intimacy is not even possible. My only point was to suggest throwing out the paradigms of blame and responsibility, and look at it differently. I couldn't stand the fact that my dad was the type of character who enjoyed awakening this in married women, so he broke quite a few relationships.

SimplyAmorous has mentioned an example of how she overcame certain assumptions and paradigms that she once believed, and freed herself from them. In these cases, continuing to try to bring in hurt, anger and her sense of responsibility practically isn't solving anything. Maybe I'm naive, but I think that if a man becomes passionate about helping her unlock this hard to describe feeling, making it the goal, she'll be smart enough to see that the physical act of sex is no longer his main goal. He wants her to reach a place where she feels something that is larger than life. If you put aside the paradigms and make her happiness the goal for a significant time, by making it clear that this is what is changing, you've done all you can do.

Again, its just food for thought. I admit that I tend to be the alpha sort, so the fact that I'm usually pursuing my wife, in a sense, just doesn't bother me because we both are getting what we want. We usually are at about two to three times a week, not counting weekends.
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:59 AM   #105 (permalink)
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That was almost two years ago and my point was she never came around. And since then yes I suppose I have regressed some but what can a guy do? We are stuck but I love her. Just not sure what is the best path.
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Hi veryconfused ~

I went out and read through your other threads. Your thread on your counseling from a couple years ago was very informative and helped to give a better picture of your marital situation.

You admitted in the other thread that you have had a habit with your wife of becoming uncommunicative and sulking when she would refuse you. And that you both went to MC a couple of years ago, but you didn't see the change you wanted to see, you dropped the counseling and you admit that you have regressed in to some of your old patterns. I think you mentioned here that she is continuing with the counseling on her own?

Have you considered going to a counselor on your own? If not, why not?

I know that you may see the issue of lack of sex as being her issue. But a marriage is a dynamic - it is both people's issue. But we have to take responsibility for the part that we may be bringing to it. Are you willing to take responsibility for the part that you are bringing? If not, why not?

And when you said that you have regressed, what patterns and behaviours have you reverted back to? I know that you are discouraged because you did not see what you felt was positive progress fast enough on your wife's part, but it is also possible that she is discouraged because she also has not seen positive sustainable progress on yours. Just something to consider.

Best wishes.
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