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Old 03-28-2012, 08:17 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: An open request from one of the men

Just my thoughts, short of saying "Get out and never come back", to a man there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that says "I don't love you and I don't want you" more strongly than his wife consistently refusing to have sex with him. Sex begrudgingly given is not gonna cut it here either, I mean sex because she desires her man. To a man, sex releases the emotional response of "I feel loved and accepted by you, and I love you and I need you" the powerful emotional response of "I can't live without you". Don't kid yourselves ladies, men need a healthy sex life to be content in the relationship. It is the key to releasing the emotional response that so many of you crave. If you refuse to meet your mans sexual needs, I GUARANTEE you will kill his emotional interest and love for you. This is a need, not a want. (I am not talking about excessive,unreasonable or abusive sexual demands.)

I think (?) for women it works in reverse, if her man meets her emotional needs it releases her sexual desire for him (I think so anyway).

So if the relatisonship is healthy and strong, I think it goes in a cycle, man provides emotional inputs to woman (courting, pursuing, chasing which makes her feel special and wanted), woman provides sexual intimacy, which releases emotional response from man, man then pursue his woman, etc. To some extent, it works in reverse roles too, but with far less power and consistency.

Sexual satisfaction and emotional satisfaction are mirror images of the same piece of the puzzle. They are not separate things, they are inseperably tied together in a healthy relationship. It is like a person, you can not separate a persons soul from thier body, neither entity can exist without the other (not in this life anyway...I don't know about what happens in the next life). The man is the body, the woman is the soul, they make one being, neither can be complete without the other.

What I have said above is just my thoughts and theories, but what I am saying below is absolute FACT in my personal experience.

Ladies, trust me on this one, if you shutdown sexually I GUARANTEE he will shutdown emotionally. This talk of a man not "needing" sex is total and absolute crap! If you want your marriage to survive in the long term, meeting your mans sexual needs is not an optional extra, it is vital. Equally, your man has a responsibility to do his best to meet your emotional needs, again, not an optional extra, it is vital. They are masculine and feminine versions of the same thing.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:25 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: An open request from one of the men

Wow, MEM, I guess this thread has not gone the way you had hoped! Now I see what you meant, but I did not understand from your original post.

I am puzzled, however, by why you think that TAM posters do not offer sympathy to men in low sex marriages. I think of the fiance who was worried that the frequency of sex had gone down. Everyone told him to run. He said he was surprised; he thought the men would tell him to cheat, and the women would call him a pig for wanting sex too much.

As for the Catherine bashing, I totally get where she is coming from. We do not hear many messages from news stories, movies, or songs that indicate that men get emotional needs met through sex. Men in general don't want to seem "needy," so they do not express tender feelings regarding sex.

When RJD posted about meeting his wife's needs resulting in great sex, he got a bunch of people saying lighten up, sex is just for screwing.

What advice do you think we should offer such men? The usual suggestions are meet her needs or do the emotional 180. What else should we say?
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:51 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Introubledeep View Post
Just my thoughts, short of saying "Get out and never come back", to a man there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that says "I don't love you and I don't want you" more strongly than his wife consistently refusing to have sex with him. Sex begrudgingly given is not gonna cut it here either, I mean sex because she desires her man. To a man, sex releases the emotional response of "I feel loved and accepted by you, and I love you and I need you" the powerful emotional response of "I can't live without you". Don't kid yourselves ladies, men need a healthy sex life to be content in the relationship. It is the key to releasing the emotional response that so many of you crave. If you refuse to meet your mans sexual needs, I GUARANTEE you will kill his emotional interest and love for you. This is a need, not a want. (I am not talking about excessive,unreasonable or abusive sexual demands.)

I think (?) for women it works in reverse, if her man meets her emotional needs it releases her sexual desire for him (I think so anyway).

So if the relatisonship is healthy and strong, I think it goes in a cycle, man provides emotional inputs to woman (courting, pursuing, chasing which makes her feel special and wanted), woman provides sexual intimacy, which releases emotional response from man, man then pursue his woman, etc. To some extent, it works in reverse roles too, but with far less power and consistency.

Sexual satisfaction and emotional satisfaction are mirror images of the same piece of the puzzle. They are not separate things, they are inseperably tied together in a healthy relationship. It is like a person, you can not separate a persons soul from thier body, neither entity can exist without the other (not in this life anyway...I don't know about what happens in the next life). The man is the body, the woman is the soul, they make one being, neither can be complete without the other.

What I have said above is just my thoughts and theories, but what I am saying below is absolute FACT in my personal experience.

Ladies, trust me on this one, if you shutdown sexually I GUARANTEE he will shutdown emotionally. This talk of a man not "needing" sex is total and absolute crap! If you want your marriage to survive in the long term, meeting your mans sexual needs is not an optional extra, it is vital. Equally, your man has a responsibility to do his best to meet your emotional needs, again, not an optional extra, it is vital. They are masculine and feminine versions of the same thing.
And I think thatís exactly how a husband should interpret his wifeís withdrawal of sex.


That is that his wife no longer loves him no matter what words she speaks. Her actions speak far louder than her words and he should believe her actions, not her words.


He should then attempt to find out why she no longer loves him and if itís possible to get the love back in some way or another. But it did at least one time uncover a wife whoíd been in an affair for three years!
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:02 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I think a lot of men and women get their ideas/concepts/thoughts/beliefs about sex from porn. Whereas for me Iíd say 95% of the porn Iíve seen is ďugly and unrealĒ.

But I grew up in a era where it just wasnít available. Sure there were some menís magazines with scantily clad women but thatís about all. Sex between my wife and I was a continuous experiment, we just learnt as we went along. I joked once that itís lucky we were slow learners because we never seemed to get tired of it. For me, you just canít beat seeing your wifeís pupils totally dilated! And if thatís not emotion on both sides I donít know what is.




But that porn sex, thatís something very different. Not a lot if any emotional connection there if any at all and just maybe thatís why some women are confused.
AFEH
Sometimes you hit the mark so squarely that I think you have a ghost writer up your sleeve or two heads on your neck. One sad and one happy. How can so unreasonable a man come up with such a perceptive observation.

This is the second time that you mentioned my husband and his dying feelings for me and the very real possibility that he will leave me.

He is not your wife and I am not you and our relationship is not like the one you and your ex had. I am working on my demons; you are blinded by yours.

My suggestion AFEH. Your ex did not leave because there was anything wrong with you. She turned against you and attempted to alienate your children. That is a reflection on her not you.

But she triumphs over you daily because you retain bitterness and you are living in a very dark place. Why? She is winning round after round and you sit like a beaten man. It is not too late for you to get your azz together and come out fighting .... for yourself.

I am convinced that you can do it. You have been in this pity party long enough. Take your sense of justice, morality and fine powers of perception and turn them to your good now.

I am certain you are capable of coming out of this, judging from the glimpses of the real you that peeks out occasionally.

if you regained your sense of hope for the future, you set an example to your sons about what it is to be a man. The command of himself and his environment are the hallmarks of being male, are they not?

Then why do you show your sons otherwise? They see a man who has allowed himself to be bested by a woman who set out to wound him. Why don't you show them what men are really made of.
Be well.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:06 AM   #35 (permalink)
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OK you two. Take it outside. This should not become so personal.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:12 AM   #36 (permalink)
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AFEH
Sometimes you hit the mark so squarely that I think you have a ghost writer up your sleeve. How can so unreasonable a man come up with such a perceptive observation. :scratch head:

This is the second time that you mentioned my husband and his dying feelings for me and the very real possibility that he will leave me.

He is not your wife and I am not you and our relationship is not like the one you and your ex had. I am working on my demons; you are blinded by yours.

My suggestion AFEH. Your ex did not leave because there was anything wrong with you. She turned against you and attempted to alienate your children. That is a reflection on her not you.

But she triumphs over you daily because you retain bitterness and you are living in a very dark place. Why? She is winning round after round and you sit like a beaten man. It is not too late for you to get your azz together and come out fighting .... for yourself.

I am convinced that you can do it. You have been in this pity party long enough. Take your sense of justice, morality and fine powers of perception and turn them to your good now.

I am certain you are capable of coming out of this, judging from the glimpses of the real you that peeks out occasionally.

if you regained your sense of hope for the future, you set an example to your sons about what it is to be a man. The command of himself and his environment are the hallmarks of being male, are they not?

Then why do you show your sons otherwise? They see a man who has allowed himself to be bested by a woman who set out to wound him. Why don't you show them what men are really made of.
Be well.
I did not anywhere say your husband has dying feelings for you. Again you use strawman arguments and yet again you are deluded.



And just why are you here if you have no serious problems in your marriage? Are you here just to shoot the breeze or maybe you are here just to wind men up. A bit like a troll maybe?

You keep refering to man as some kind of evil. Are you really that blind, that unaware and sleep walking to think that that does not reflect in your marriage?

Don't you as you inferred withhold sex from your husband? If so you are one of the withholders, punishing your husband by withholding sex!
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:14 AM   #37 (permalink)
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OK you two. Take it outside. This should not become so personal.
Sometimes. Just sometimes awakening and understanding comes through conflict.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:18 AM   #38 (permalink)
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What I've learned is that when you're in something, it's hard to see it any way besides your own. When you're in a partnership, the fact that it's hard to see any way besides your own is actually what destroys your relationship.
Simple. Brilliant. True.

Tragically true.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:25 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Sometimes. Just sometimes awakening and understanding comes through conflict.
Just like in a real marriage!
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:30 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Mem, I understand, appreciate, and agree with what you are saying. Catherine is correct, too--women experience a lot of men and male behavior that suggests that sex has nothing to do with men's emotional needs.

But men have an equally unfair perception of women--that women are childish and will use sex as a weapon. It's called "withholding sex," as though it is an intentional act just to punish the man.

Much as sex is an emotional need for some men, the loss of desire for women for their spouse is an emotional response for women. I know you think that women should let their man try to ignite that desire--but if the cause is emotional, the act of letting him try to ignite is itself quite unpleasant. It is like someone feeding you cake when you are not at all hungry. The cake may taste good, but you still feel awful afterwards.

It is a two-way street, but if the men are the ones on here looking for help, then they are the only ones who can be reached. I have noticed that there are 2 patterns to the men whose wives don't want sex with them: those who let their wives get away with bad behavior early in the relationship, and those who themselves are NOT being good spouses, sharing in the responsibilities of the family, etc.

I appreciate the "man up" and 180 ideas b/c basically, they are simply telling men to quit putting up with rude behavior from their wives, expect their wives to act like adults, and see what happens. Of course, it isn't cast in that way, but that's for another discussion.

We are really saying the same things, but understanding them in very different ways. What I know and that most women know is that if you go ahead and have sex with someone when you lack desire, it makes things worse. Furthermore, most women do not reach the point of avoiding sex until their emotional needs have not been met for a long, long time. But, if the wives were on here asking for advice, I would encourage them to try to initiate and have sex more, b/c THEY are the ones asking-and it will help reduce the man's resentment. Then, after sex is re-established, the woman can start asking for her needs to be met. In a lot of cases, this will happen--but in others it won't. There are a lot of childish and selfish men out there, too. And they may not grow up as long as they are getting their candy. Fortunately, this is the exception, not the rule (in the cases of both men and women who are incapable of acting like mature adults).
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:44 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Wow, MEM, I guess this thread has not gone the way you had hoped! Now I see what you meant, but I did not understand from your original post.

I am puzzled, however, by why you think that TAM posters do not offer sympathy to men in low sex marriages. I think of the fiance who was worried that the frequency of sex had gone down. Everyone told him to run. He said he was surprised; he thought the men would tell him to cheat, and the women would call him a pig for wanting sex too much.

As for the Catherine bashing, I totally get where she is coming from. We do not hear many messages from news stories, movies, or songs that indicate that men get emotional needs met through sex. Men in general don't want to seem "needy," so they do not express tender feelings regarding sex.

When RJD posted about meeting his wife's needs resulting in great sex, he got a bunch of people saying lighten up, sex is just for screwing.

What advice do you think we should offer such men? The usual suggestions are meet her needs or do the emotional 180. What else should we say?
People typically find what they seek, what they are looking for and can be blind to what theyíre not looking for even though itís right under their nose! Most especially in this internet era. I just Googled ďEmotions and sexĒ and got nearly 90 million results in just 0.27 seconds. I was going to paste some of the links here, but surely you can do that as Iíll just find what Iím seeking.

But if you seek positive, good things about men and their emotions wrt sex you will surely find them.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:12 AM   #42 (permalink)
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We do not hear many messages from news stories, movies, or songs that indicate that men get emotional needs met through sex. Men in general don't want to seem "needy," so they do not express tender feelings regarding sex.
You said exactly what I was trying to say only much better. Maybe I should use less words and write with more precision.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:30 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Just my thoughts, short of saying "Get out and never come back", to a man there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that says "I don't love you and I don't want you" more strongly than his wife consistently refusing to have sex with him. Sex begrudgingly given is not gonna cut it here either, I mean sex because she desires her man. To a man, sex releases the emotional response of "I feel loved and accepted by you, and I love you and I need you" the powerful emotional response of "I can't live without you". Don't kid yourselves ladies, men need a healthy sex life to be content in the relationship. It is the key to releasing the emotional response that so many of you crave. If you refuse to meet your mans sexual needs, I GUARANTEE you will kill his emotional interest and love for you. This is a need, not a want. (I am not talking about excessive,unreasonable or abusive sexual demands.)

I think (?) for women it works in reverse, if her man meets her emotional needs it releases her sexual desire for him (I think so anyway).

So if the relatisonship is healthy and strong, I think it goes in a cycle, man provides emotional inputs to woman (courting, pursuing, chasing which makes her feel special and wanted), woman provides sexual intimacy, which releases emotional response from man, man then pursue his woman, etc. To some extent, it works in reverse roles too, but with far less power and consistency.

Sexual satisfaction and emotional satisfaction are mirror images of the same piece of the puzzle. They are not separate things, they are inseperably tied together in a healthy relationship. It is like a person, you can not separate a persons soul from thier body, neither entity can exist without the other (not in this life anyway...I don't know about what happens in the next life). The man is the body, the woman is the soul, they make one being, neither can be complete without the other.

What I have said above is just my thoughts and theories, but what I am saying below is absolute FACT in my personal experience.

Ladies, trust me on this one, if you shutdown sexually I GUARANTEE he will shutdown emotionally. This talk of a man not "needing" sex is total and absolute crap! If you want your marriage to survive in the long term, meeting your mans sexual needs is not an optional extra, it is vital. Equally, your man has a responsibility to do his best to meet your emotional needs, again, not an optional extra, it is vital. They are masculine and feminine versions of the same thing.

This post is perfect, because it summarizes precisely the crux of how the "give and take" in any relationship works. It is a cycle, based on a balance of exchanges. If the balance of the scale starts tipping one way then it gains perpetual motion in offsetting the balance, making it harder for repairs to be done the longer / more it tips.

I found TAM in a hasty search trying to find out what was causing my wife's low libido, only to start discovering after a few weeks of reading that I had been causing the problem all along, and for many years. I was completely oblivious to some of the damage I was building into my relationship simply because I just didn't know any better... I thought the relationship was fine until something started directly affecting me, which was the lack of sex. My wife had even dropped a few hints to me (like "I'm bored" and "I don't feel special") just before I found this place and I really didn't understand the true underlying nature of what she was trying to tell me, because I didn't have the necessary insight at the time. Only after I found TAM and therefore read some recommended books did I start fully understanding the differences and needs of both genders within a relationship, and my eyes started opening up to what I was doing wrong in my own relationship.

Trenton is right... We often only see our own way in a relationship. Sometimes you need a true awakening to fully understand the other half of your relationship. Then you need to make a total effort to ensure you're always nurturing that other half to sustain a happy relationship. It's the cycle of balance.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:31 AM   #44 (permalink)
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What I know and that most women know is that if you go ahead and have sex with someone when you lack desire, it makes things worse. Furthermore, most women do not reach the point of avoiding sex until their emotional needs have not been met for a long, long time. But, if the wives were on here asking for advice, I would encourage them to try to initiate and have sex more, b/c THEY are the ones asking-and it will help reduce the man's resentment. Then, after sex is re-established, the woman can start asking for her needs to be met.
I firmly agree with your first point. Not so sure I agree with your second ... particularly in light of the kind of man and relationship dynamic that MEM is illustrating, and that we most frequently see here on the boards.
Emotionally 'clueless' guys don't seek out marriage forums. Not suggesting that all of the men that post about sexless marriages are model husbands, but many have certainly tried to be loving and attentive ... often times too much so.

I thought MEM's request was remarkably straightforward, clear, fair and presented from a very 'neutral' perspective.

In particular, the refusing spouses inability or unwillingness to look at, or discuss 'why is this happening?' and 'how can we improve it?'
The more common methodology is continued minimizing, blame-shifting, or blatant disrespect and/or mockery.

Point being that his initial post didn't resonate. Either it wasn't understood, or perceived as a veiled criticism or attack. And that kind of sums it up for me. There is a point where two people 'resonate' and make beautiful music ... but the moment you stop paying attention to the music ... you run the risk of making noise instead. And nobody likes noise. It's annoying. It's diminishing, and all the more frustrating when you make all reasonable efforts to get back to the music but you still get noise ... and the only way to make the noise stop, is to stop playing and leave the band.
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Last edited by Deejo; 03-28-2012 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:45 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I wonder what emotions a man feels about sex with his wife? For me there was the ďlooking forward to itĒ phase. I was always full of optimism because my wife never said no. So I could plan say a walk amongst the dunes by the beach or even the use of a beach hut with the full expectation that weíd have very enjoyable sex. Or maybe a walk in the woods, against a tree or under a tree in a cornfield. Or a cycle across the moors thinking about sex with her in the Inn with the four poster bed when away for a weekend.

All that emotional optimism and expectation was mine for a very long time. It is HIGHLY motivational and full of feel good factors just thinking about and planning sex. It is one of the reasons I did so much for my wife. That and amongst other things her very fine cooking.

These things arenít rational in the sense that itís far more emotional than rational. It is subjective. Not objective. But I donít think it is irrational. Maybe it is to some. But when you think about it and rationalise it you can just see how even thinking about sex is emotional. But then again I am a romantic.

And then thereís the act itself. Absolutely full of those feel good endorphins, desire and passion. Sometimes my mind used to swim in them, such were the emotions I felt when making love with my wife. Apart from alcohol and nicotine Iíve never taken any other drugs in my life. I got all the highs I ever needed or wanted from my wife.


I honestly donít know what I would have done, how I would have behaved if my wife had withheld sex from me. Even after a big argument she still never denied me. Itís how we used to make up. In fact thinking about it, I withheld whereas my wife didnít. On a few occasions I withheld by not initiating but could never past more than five or six days.
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