Are any other women insulted by how Nice Guys are described in so many google links ?

SimplyAmorous · 04-06-2012, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halien

Hearing these negatives in articles like this evokes a strong sense of frustration, to be honest. Think about what it really says about the woman, and how she views herself, to be able to say such a thing. Obviously, some who say such a thing feel this sense of condescention towards these guys.

It was a guy who wrote that article, says he is a dating expert --his specialty -seduction...of course! Probably a convert of sites like this:

The Attraction Forums | The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed

I don't doubt this stuff works , mind you... but the problem is.. the men who ACT like this are just as deceiving , if not more so, than the "nice guys" ....not really showing their true colors in realness...2 different kinds of hiding going on, just in very different ways. I just ordered a book on Introverts and it said that 25% of them act like extroverts -just to fit in. Why do we have to do this with each other.

I think the answer lies in better Communication, all of these other things only mask who we really are to others ... This is honorable living before others >>> The 7 Habits of Highly Effective

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I'm joking here, but do you really think a guy understands half of what a woman says when she talks endlessly about the most minute of details when it comes to how so and so made her feel? Do you really think he wouldn't enjoy it if she'd just be the type who preferred a good round of X-box over talking about feelings? Nice guys are those who choose to respect their girlfriend/wife so much that they want to be there for her. Yet women like this look down on those behaviors.

My husband is not a gamer or a sports fanatic.... he does like guns & coins though. Of course we love our men to listen, we want to feel we CAN lean on their shoulders -but us women should be careful to not be obsessive talkers.... I can't even stand that in my gf's - I want to run from them, change the subject... I've been brash enough to tell my one gf if she goes on like she does about her work & mentioning her ex with a guy -she won't get a 2nd date.

I aim to solve my relationship dilemmas, in a way I am like a man....trying to fix. But of course I need his listening ear too. A few of my gf's has told me they can't talk to their husbands. I think that is very sad.

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Take a compassionate, confident guy and stick an alpha label on him, and some woman is going to write a story about how they all are arrogant, low-empathy users of women, who are missing the gene that would allow them to really love a woman.

Yep, I would be tempted to think this, I KNOW it is not right, but I can't deny the temptation. I often
associate Alpha as confident Ego busting -Leader of the Pack badboy...just as others associate BETA with pathetic & doormats. Though I would say there is likely 75% more slamming towards Beta men.

I feel Alphas can stand to take more hits personally -in this attraction war.

I agree....I shouldn't do it... and others shouldn't do it. I guess I have seen plenty of women (generally stuck ups) -shooting down the shy boys in my time, making fun of them calling them freaky, weird , very condescending comments .

Something just rises in me and I just want to defend ! Hey, that is why I did this thread.

Bottled Up · 04-06-2012, 09:40 AM

I was about to buy the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yesterday but then I read a review on Amazon about it that totally turned me off. The review was so concise and thought-out, it kinda shunned me away from the book. It started making me think about how the whole "Nice Guy" thing is kind of exploited in the relationship industry... I think purposefully, because there's money to be made off making men feel insecure about themselves. This article you posted SimplyA seems like the same culprit of what the review was talking about. Here's a quote of the review verbatim:

Quote:

Flawed Theory, Sound Advice: A Common Sense Look at "No More Mr. Nice Guy", November 25, 2007

By Enamorato

This book is, in many ways, highly flawed. I cannot, however, rate it any lower than three stars because the core behaviors Dr. Glover advocates are fundamental pillars of psychological well-being. His core premise is that all human beings have needs. Among these are somatic needs (food, shelter, treatment for injury, etc.) and emotional/psychological needs (love, validation, affection, etc.). For one reason or another, however, many men have come to habitually avoid pursuing or expressing these needs and desires in a direct way. Thus, "Nice Guy syndrome" is characterized by attempts to satisfy those needs by indirect means. Glover describes some of the more pervasive behaviors: a superficial niceness (in which one does something nice with the unconscious assumption that he will get something in return - "hidden contracts" as Glover dubs them), passive aggression, and other means of manipulation. Of course, these tactics are most often ineffective and leave the man frustrated and needy. Oftentimes, these desires are rechanneled (into things like porn or drug addiction) or repressed (only to emerge in an irrational or misdirected show of aggression or an emotional breakdown).

Glover encourages the individual to take an assertive role in getting his needs met. He does not mince words, and says outright "you are the only person responsible for meeting your own needs." And the best way to make sure this happens is to take the direct route: express outright and honestly what it is you want, make your own needs a priority, and then pursue them (or ask for help). This is, of course, sound and commonsense psychology. The heart of the book really are Chapter's Three ("Learn To Please the Only Person Who Really Matters"), Four ("Make Your Needs a Priority"), and Five ("Reclaim Your Personal Power"). This is where the book is most thoroughly in touch with the roots of this self-sabotaging behavior and offer the most practical suggestions for improvement.

Where things get somewhat muddy, however, is Glover's analysis of the genesis of this behavior, and the fundamentally flawed model of the "integrated man" that he advocates for the "recovering Nice Guy." While an understanding of where self-sabotaging behavior comes from can certainly offer insight, Glover's theory is disappointingly Freudian (and more specifically, Oedipal; see in particular Chapters 2 and 6 on "The Making of a Nice Guy" and "Reclaiming Your Masculinity" respectively). Likewise, Glover targets the women's liberation movement and the paucity of male teachers in the classroom for having a deleterious effect on the psyche of men. He seems oddly fixated on a gender dynamic that is largely irrelevant to the heart of the problem: an underlying insecurity. While the absence of a father figure and the predominance of women in the public education system no doubt can play a role in a boy's development of sense-of-self (and consequent alienation from other men), these phenomena do not play as large a role as Glover seems to want us to believe. An understanding of WHY certain men are simply more susceptible towards these tendencies goes largely unaddressed, as well as the fact that many men who have gone through the exact same school-system, in the same post-women's liberation environment, whose father figure was absent, etc. have emerged perfectly functional, successful and happy.

In my opinion, these gender politics are merely Glover's shtick and have absolutely jack to do with recovering a sense of assertiveness and competence in one's life. It's interesting to compare this book to another in the male-oriented self-help genre - "The Way of the Superior Man" by David Deida. The modus operandi of much self-help literature is to pander to the reader's deepest insecurities: to convince him that he is fundamentally "broken" and needs fixing, and to fill him with an unscrupulous allegiance to a (mostly random) plan of "recovery." And, indeed, both Deida and Glover pander way below the belt: squarely at the reader's testicles.

Another major flaw with this text (and one that plagues just about all mass-market psychological theories today), is the lack of any control group to establish exactly what a "recovering Nice Guy" should realistically aim for. For example, much of Dr. Glover's sentences are prefaced with "Nice Guys tend to..." But, having spent most of his recent clinical career exploring the inner psyches of men who identify themselves as "Nice Guys" (and of course having been one himself), how exactly does Glover know that HEALTHY men DON'T also "tend to" engage in the same behavior? What this book would benefit from is an explicit idea of where to draw the line between debilitating pathology and functional "imperfections." The fact is, "the integrated man" that Glover speaks of is a theoretical ideal. He doesn't really exist. Even the assertive, talented, successful, and happy men that seem to exemplify this goal experience the selfsame fundamental doubt, frustration, and periods of ineffectuality that Mr. Nice Guy does. Luckily, Glover recommends throughout the book for these guys to get out there and form friendships with other men, which presumably would facilitate a reality check. Glover makes it clear from the onset that it is important that one have a healthy and supportive group of people with whom one can be honest and expose their frailties and mistakes to (he calls these "safe people").

Also, Glover's model of "integrated manhood" is unconscionably narrow. This is most apparent in Glover's use of quotations from Robert Bly out-of-context. One such quote deals with the "lack of vitality" of "soft-men" who are often seen with "strong women who positively radiate energy." Glover compounds the issue by evoking the issue of "softness" again in Chapter 6, where he admonishes the "many men who... even take pride in their [physical and emotional] softness" and then instructs his reader to hit the gym. Glover does not seem to consider that there are as many ways to be a man as there are men in the world. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being a "soft" man. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with being involved with "strong women." Only one who is fundamentally insecure would argue otherwise.

And this is exactly the point: Glover knows this, and works his reader into a frenzy of attempting to reclaim their "birthright" of masculinity. Passages like this serve only to pander to the reader's insecurity and breed an allegiance to his system, however arbitrary and illogical. One need only hop over to Glover's internet support group to see this in full evidence: some of these men have been at it for years and truly believe they are on their way towards becoming an "integrated man." Yet they are still fundamentally insecure and stuck in Glover's schema of lost manhood.

It must be noted that, while Glover's theory itself is muddled and his tactics more concerned with breeding allegiance to his theory, he advocates fundamentally sound and helpful behavior. For example, he asks the reader to create a list of "safe people." This essentially fosters the formation of friendship: a cornerstone to a fulfilling life. He advocates honesty and assertiveness. This fosters the ability to get/express what you really want, thereby preventing frustration or repression. He advocates getting physical exercise and taking care of yourself. We all know the benefits of exercise and eating right. Essentially, Glover advocates being yourself and not being ashamed of it. This is possibly the most fundamental pillar of psychological health, is it not? All in all, Glover's advice itself is nothing new, nothing revolutionary, and nothing that has not already been accounted for in modern psychology: it's just dressed up with a hook that that bound to bait some of the the millions of insecure men in the world.

bill2011 · 04-06-2012, 10:00 AM

I would have to disagree, I think the NMMNG book is very accurate. I've done alot of research and it also ties into co-dependency issues and self-esteem problems due to some trama in childhood. They are all intertwined with each other. I'm not proud that I have those qualities on the list and are working hard to change that.

SA you are not the typical women and I'm happy for you that what you and your spouse have works for the both of you.

shy_guy · 04-06-2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill2011

I would have to disagree, I think the NMMNG book is very accurate. I've done alot of research and it also ties into co-dependency issues and self-esteem problems due to some trama in childhood. They are all intertwined with each other. I'm not proud that I have those qualities on the list and are working hard to change that.

SA you are not the typical women and I'm happy for you that what you and your spouse have works for the both of you.

May I ask what research you did? I ask because "research" means different things to different people. For example, the research a scientist or engineer does is different from what is done by someone writing an undergrad research paper. I'm just wanting to clarify where your conclusions come from.

bill2011 · 04-06-2012, 10:17 AM

Maybe research was a poor choice of words, I guess self-discovery and knowledge awareness would be better. I've been reading many books on the various topics and it is helping me understand my behavior. In addition to NMMNG book I've read the following books John Bradshaw's (homecomming and the shame that binds you), Hold on to your Nuts, When I say no I feel guilty and Co-Dependent No-More. I am also in a local NMMNG group and do IC for myself.

I would also add that while these books deliver their messages differently, for me at least I can see that all the pieces come together.

shy_guy · 04-06-2012, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous

It was a guy who wrote that article, says he is a dating expert --his specialty -seduction...of course! Probably a convert of sites like this:

The Attraction Forums | The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed

I don't doubt this stuff works , mind you... but the problem is.. the men who ACT like this are just as deceiving , if not more so, than the "nice guys" ....not really showing their true colors in realness...2 different kinds of hiding going on, just in very different ways. I just ordered a book on Introverts and it said that 25% of them act like extroverts -just to fit in. Why do we have to do this with each other.

I think the answer lies in better Communication, all of these other things only mask who we really are to others ... This is honorable living before others >>> The 7 Habits of Highly Effective

My husband is not a gamer or a sports fanatic.... he does like guns & coins though. Of course we love our men to listen, we want to feel we CAN lean on their shoulders -but us women should be careful to not be obsessive talkers.... I can't even stand that in my gf's - I want to run from them, change the subject... I've been brash enough to tell my one gf if she goes on like she does about her work & mentioning her ex with a guy -she won't get a 2nd date.

I aim to solve my relationship dilemmas, in a way I am like a man....trying to fix. But of course I need his listening ear too. A few of my gf's has told me they can't talk to their husbands. I think that is very sad.

Yep, I would be tempted to think this, I KNOW it is not right, but I can't deny the temptation. I often
associate Alpha as confident Ego busting -Leader of the Pack badboy...just as others associate BETA with pathetic & doormats. Though I would say there is likely 75% more slamming towards Beta men.

I feel Alphas can stand to take more hits personally -in this attraction war.

I agree....I shouldn't do it... and others shouldn't do it. I guess I have seen plenty of women (generally stuck ups) -shooting down the shy boys in my time, making fun of them calling them freaky, weird , very condescending comments .

Something just rises in me and I just want to defend ! Hey, that is why I did this thread.

From the first paragraph, maybe this guy WAS the guy in the gas station on I-5.

I think what you hit on SA is a need to appreciate the partner's individuality, appreciate what makes your partner who they are, and allowing them to be who they are. In your post, you recognized that there are two sides to the relationship which means give and take, not just take. I think that is a big part of why you are successful in your marriage. Like many, you recognize that this doesn't mean that there will never be a disagreement (far from it, right?), but you both want to work back to that place of happiness in your relationship and are willing to give and take to get there.

I'm always skeptical when I see someone start in on stereotypes of any type, and this article/list is just one of those perfect examples of someone doing that. "Nice guys" do X, Y and Z, and "women" like A, B, and C. I don't see any recognition of individuality in his list. I don't see any real depth of thought in his list beyond a world defined to fit in his narrow view. Obviously, many of us will not fit into his view. Maybe one day he'll develop a bit more and see that.

SimplyAmorous · 04-06-2012, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill2011

I would have to disagree, I think the NMMNG book is very accurate. I've done alot of research and it also ties into co-dependency issues and self-esteem problems due to some trama in childhood. They are all intertwined with each other. I'm not proud that I have those qualities on the list and are working hard to change that.

SA you are not the typical women and I'm happy for you that what you and your spouse have works for the both of you.

I am not at all typical, this is very true.

You misunderstand me a little though... I do not have any issues with "No More Mr Nice Guy" for the most part......I have the book, we went through it togehter, I think we stopped about 1/4 way though. I also bought "Hold on to your nuts".. I seriously wanted to see if these were degrading NICE men unfairly.. I didn't get that.

I think ALL people should not hide who they are, to speak up & say what is on thier mind- even if others they love will take issue, without that going on, genuine communication is flawed, in these ways...these book are excellent. No one should camaflauge who they are for another. Screw going along with the crowd. I never did.

I listed some of the things my husband fell into...(post #14) in his case...his home life was WONDERFUL ...never abused, mistreated, he wouldn't even know what trama was, he was loved & cared for -from birth. Siblings also wonderful.

He had friends but he was still a shyer quieter kid, he wasn't like alot of the others in school, he was not into sports.... and he DID get made fun off. .... if anything took at hit on his self-esteem it was a** holes in school. But as sensitive people (which my husband is)... we tend to let that get us down, don't we, especially in our youth.

One of our sons is quiet & shy, he is all his dad - got a little badboy in there -but it is concealed. Only his close friends see that. He was getting bullied by some brat a couple yrs ago- in elementary. I was fuming, but what could I do. I can't fight his battles. I just thought to myself...he is taking after DAD !! I gave him permission to pound that brat into the ground & tell him off , even told the Principle that -but I knew he wouldn't do it.

He is doing fine now, some cheerleader went after him....so he is all into her -moving up in the desirable chain- I suppose. I was so damn happy for him...the shy boy gets the pretty girl. Love those stories...cause they are not the norm.

Phleg's don't like conflict, it is in their nature. I am chloric, I tend to enjoy it ! Which in reality , makes us good for each other, I unearth anything that is bothering him. IN the past, I was not paying enough attention. Now I am...which has been a blessing .

Yes, Co-denpendency is NO good. I think it is GREAT that you are working hard to be a better man. I don't think those books encourage men to be jerks... though a few things we read togehter, we agreed was purely not necessary in HIS situation....such as finding men to hang with or not talking to ME about his feelings. I am not judging him or looking down on him in any way, so these things were a non issue -with us.

But if a man has a wife who is looking down on him, treating him like a doormat...Yep, he needs a whole nother social network - other men to confide in - and not talk to her about his progress.

SimplyAmorous · 04-06-2012, 12:01 PM

Bottled Up, thank you for posting that review... some of my thoughts....on the reviewers points....

Quote:

An understanding of WHY certain men are simply more susceptible towards these tendencies goes largely unaddressed, as well as the fact that many men who have gone through the exact same school-system, in the same post-women's liberation environment, whose father figure was absent, etc. have emerged perfectly functional, successful and happy.

I agree with this.... In my own mind...which I am always harping on here is...one of the things that is NEVER addressed in any of these books is our inborn temperments, it is very easy for Extroverted Chlorics and Sanguines to BE & act in a more confident take charge - assertive way...this seriously is as easy as breathing for many of us... Someone woud have to tie my mouth shut to get me to put myself down. I can hardly do it...that would be the struggle for me.

Scroll down & read the differences : The Four Temperaments
(Choleric .... Melancholic ... Phlegmatic and Sanguine )

Quote:

how exactly does Glover know that HEALTHY men DON'T also "tend to" engage in the same behavior? What this book would benefit from is an explicit idea of where to draw the line between debilitating pathology and functional "imperfections." The fact is, "the integrated man" that Glover speaks of is a theoretical ideal. He doesn't really exist.

I would also agree that the healthy man still engages in some of these behavior some of the time, putting himself down for his partner, but it shouldn't be ALL the time by any means. ...and yes, we all have imperfections, embracing ourselves with those imperfections is also very important for happiness.

I recently ordered this book : The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are : Brene Brown

I didn't listen to this... but I know it has to be excellent - same author of the book ... The Gifts of Imperfection - YouTube

Quote:

Glover compounds the issue by evoking the issue of "softness" again in Chapter 6, where he admonishes the "many men who... even take pride in their [physical and emotional] softness" and then instructs his reader to hit the gym. Glover does not seem to consider that there are as many ways to be a man as there are men in the world. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being a "soft" man. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with being involved with "strong women." Only one who is fundamentally insecure would argue otherwise.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with being a SOFT man....My husband would definitely be a SOFT man.

But his type is also needed in this world. For instance...he has the Boss from Hell (the man needed to go to Anger Management twice since he has been there)..... everyone hates him....one employee will not even LOOK at him when he talks...it's crazy there. I shouldn't laugh with some of these stories he comes home with, but I can't help myself.

My husband has a way of "calming" that man.... Probably a blessing he works there or who knows what might go on... He seems to like my husband, he appears to be the only one who can "get away" with giving the boss advice without getting his head chopped off. Sometimes I say to him.. YOU said THAT to the Boss !!

A few wks back, he walked in on the boss & a co-worker screamng at each other..He took it upon himself to talk to the boss afterwards telling him he should take it easy on him, that paperwork takes time....then notices him later in his office somber –like he is thinking, then his Co-worker tells him later the boss apologized…. (this just doesn't happen) Love it ! My husband…the peacemaker.

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Essentially, Glover advocates being yourself and not being ashamed of it. This is possibly the most fundamental pillar of psychological health, is it not? All in all, Glover's advice itself is nothing new, nothing revolutionary, and nothing that has not already been accounted for in modern psychology: it's just dressed up with a hook that that bound to bait some of the the millions of insecure men in the world.

I agree, it is dressed up with a slant, the whole point is ....about being yourself and not being ashamed of your desires, your wants, and pursuing them.

lovesherman · 04-06-2012, 02:42 PM

I deliberately looked for a nice guy in a husband because my alpha father walked all over my mother, and I was determined not to have that kind of marriage.

I agree with the others, the definition of a nice guy in your original post is of a man who values his wife more than himself, a man who bases his self-worth on pleasing others. That can only lead to unhappiness for both nice guy and entitled wife.

Jeff/BC · 04-06-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottled Up

I was about to buy the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yesterday but then I read a review on Amazon about it that totally turned me off.

How interesting. Many of those exact same points are what I've been negatively reacting to regarding the "alpha" and "nice guy" fetish on this site. It all seems... to my eye at least... a bit "off".

ocotillo · 04-06-2012, 03:23 PM

Rubs me the wrong way too. Actually the whole 'alpha' = 'accomplished pick-up artist' thing rubs me the wrong way.

A man can be a triple black belt and deadlier with a pistol than the fictional character Vincent from the movie Collateral, but if he believes women should be treated like ladies and sees to their needs ahead of his own, that makes him a 'doormat?'

Give me a break!

I don't even need to track down a picture of this Andres Munoz to know that he's a skinny little pencil-neck with a big mouth.

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby · 04-06-2012, 03:50 PM

This article is extremely off. My husband is defiantly a nice guy type, but he's not needy, a doormat, nor does he continuously shower me with gifts. My husband is a patient and very confident man without arrogance and big ego. He looks at everything from several point of views without judgment.

Sure he loves affection, but so do I. Thus is one need that is easily met. My husband is not emotional like a woman, he has very logical point of view. I'm absolutely in love with my nice guy. We both treat each other with respect. We both listen to our point of views and come to conclusions as a team. I'm confident around him, especially in the bedroom. He keeps a very positive attitude and it rubs off on all of us.

I'm very lucky to have him as my husband. We both build ourselves to be better people. He's the nice guy, I'm the nice girl. We get along beautifully.
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Entropy3000 · 04-06-2012, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocotillo

Rubs me the wrong way too. Actually the whole 'alpha' = 'accomplished pick-up artist' thing rubs me the wrong way.

A man can be a triple black belt and deadlier with a pistol than the fictional character Vincent from the movie Collateral, but if he believes women should be treated like ladies and sees to their needs ahead of his own, that makes him a 'doormat?'

Give me a break!

I don't even need to track down a picture of this Andres Munoz to know that he's a skinny little pencil-neck with a big mouth.

That makes him a man of substance. A Gentlemen. He is nice because it is his choice.

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby · 04-06-2012, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Dean*

You don't have a Nice Guy......you have a really Good Man!

Awwww.... That's really sweet. He's a wonderful man who is in love with me too.

SimplyAmorous · 04-07-2012, 12:10 AM

I am picking apart the last 3 points of Andres Munoz's list ...

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7: Trying to buy her affection with gifts and dinners. Major mistake nice guys make simply because at the core of it women will not respect a guy who tries to buy their affection. It's the perfect recipe for her to move on to some other guy and the nice guy has nothing to show for, just loads of money down the drain.

I've never used a good guy like this, but sadly I have seen others do it. One of our guy friends really liked this one lady in our church... they hung out alot, communcatively they enjoyed each other...he was doing all of these favors for her, painting her house, then her mom's.....he was falling in love...Being a friend looking out for him -I kept telling him- NOPE, she ain't into you !! Me & my husband knew it, he would get mad at us, but I didn't want to see him hurt. He kept spitting out the favors, once she thought she'd get us to haul something for her , cause we were his friends... I told him -NO WAY ! He learned a hard hard lesson...and it took him years to overcome this stupid girl. I think women should be ashamed of themselves when they do this, she knew, and she kept taking. Yes, he was a fool... but she was a USER. Who is worse in character?

Yeah...GOOD loving men need to be very very very careful here-they can be so blinded -by love, and so manipulated by women.

But in saying all of this.. my husband treated me like this when we were dating, he took me shopping in the Mall, bought me clothes, jewelry, he was very very good to me - I think he felt bad for my home life, I rarely was treated with anything new... and truthfully, his good treatment (in so many ways, this was just one) - sure it won my heart over to him. But I never used him. If I had any reserves about us, I wouldn't have let him do those things for me. My conscience would have been screaming.

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8: Nice guys don't exude confidence around women. Women want a man to take charge and be confident. As much as women want to claim that they want a sweet guy they are completely contradicting themselves because at the end of the day women are attracted to men who knows what they want and take charge with no apologies.

I look at more than this. We can go to websites (like the Attraction forums link above) where they TRAIN YOU to act all confident while you have zero character underneath all the BS... better to be real from the get go. What may appear as confidence may simply be a haughty EGO disguised. My husband works with a guy like this, I know he is a Choleric temperment... He tries to play Boss at work, he thinks he knows everything, he tells my husband when he goes into the bar, all the women want him - he seriously believes these things. The man IS confident....but also diluted. When he 1st started working there, he was telling everyone his wife was crazy --they believed him! He played a good act for a time there. Always the confident talker.....now that they have gotten to REALLY know him... they now see him as crazy! So confidence can even be misleading ...

I think it is wise to look deeper than outward appearances and how many chicks is following behind. I would choose a humble respectful man with character over an appearance of "confidence". Some have a very quiet confidence, you may not even see it- this would be my husband -but he would not even say he has much confidence... He never brags but he is satisfied with his life, his abilities, is not envious of anyone else, and is a very very happy man.

Many seem to wear that hat...just cause one is confident (in what?) doesn't necessarily make him GOOD to women. Plenty of confident Jerks walking around.

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9: Nice guys don't embrace their masculinity. They feel that they must put in check their masculine desires and apologize for being a man! There is nothing wrong with being a man but thanks to the American feminist movement men today are afraid to show their true masculine nature

I have to agree with this one. Men are different than us women, they are stronger, braver, they are born to provide & protect, they make excellent mechanics. I would never disagree, or want to change some of the wonderful things about men- that I couldn't hold a candle too. Love their abilities, even the way they think. I am thrilled they are differnt and love & embrace those differences. But a Softer man is not any less of a man.

Nor should the jocks look down on the Geeky types like Bill Gates....the Geek that changed the world... I read somewhere he said this ... "Don't make fun of those nerds at school...in the future, you might be working for them".

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10: Nice guys apologize unnecessarily. Whatever happens they apologize even if it's her fault. If the girl the women they are with begin to act bratty the nice guy will apologize and give in to her behavior.

Noone should ever apologize for something that is not their fault. Yes, this one is a sign of a doormat, I can't argue this one at all.