AFEH
And hell no never ever will I ask for a feminist subforum here. ahahaha. That's really funny. There is definitely a dearth of feminist marriage resources but TAM as of right now soooo isn't the place to try and rustle some up.
I’m disappointed. Truly I am disappointed. I’ve read some of your other posts and was really impressed, but here you disappoint me.
For me you’ve just put yourself in the category of “Armchair Feminist”. There’s nothing brave about that. Nothing you’ll ever change.
Fortune favours the brave. It really does. I can see you’re just not brave enough. I was. It never did me any harm whatsoever.
Go on. Chain yourself to the railings of TAM. I know for a fact you'll be surprised from where your support comes.
tldr:
1) Don't tie your self-esteem up into how feminist you are or whether you're handling your marriage the way a "true feminist should"
2) Sometimes married couples arrive at situations where there is no compromise because each side's desired end-state is mutually exclusive, that's just part of human interaction
3) When being nice doesn't work, you have to be firm without being an ass. When that doesn't work, it's best to just leave the situation be for a while and talk about it later when you're both calm.
Long version:
There are social ills worth getting angry over, and sexism is one of them. These ills and the drive to eradicate them are not ideals to be trotted out when convenient then stowed away around differently-minded people, but neither should they be battle lines that you draw with every single acquaintance, friend, or family member.
Having strong principles and fighting for them is one of the great human virtues, but you should define those virtues and what they mean to you, not the other way around. In your OP, IMO it sounds like you're trying to reconcile your marriage vs "how a true, staunch feminist should handle marriage". But the truth is, that's for YOU to decide, not the rest of feminism at large.
Your self esteem should not be wrapped up in how feminist you are. That should be part of it, sure, but if it defines who you are, then you're just a one trick pony with a one-dimensional personality who sees the world through only one lens. Sometimes being married means setting a part of ourselves aside for the good of the marriage. That doesn't mean you don't believe those things anymore, just that you acknowledge that it doesn't bring your marriage to a better state. You still fight for those principles, but you allow your marriage to be a demilitarized zone for betterment of your marriage.
You've begun to see that in the gridlock that you and your H experience. If every argument turns into this inner question in your head of "am I being feminist enough?" or "if he wins, then he's walking all over me, which a feminist would not allow!", then you've already lost the argument, even if you win it logically, because you're now holding your marriage up to the ideals of feminism, not your own personal ideals. One of the most important skills that married couples have to learn is to let their ego go and realize that every difference of opinion is not a potential battle that must be won, no matter the cost, even if it means driving this thing over a cliff. I'm not saying that you give in and always let your H have his way, nothing like that. I'm saying that you have to learn to approach these situations with kindness and sympathy to help you better see the situation in its full scope, not just from the feminist POV.
Maybe you need to make up your own definition of what it means to be a happily married feminist, instead of looking for that validation from the feminist movement. If you can't do that, then IMO it's time to ask yourself what is more important to you, your feminism or your marriage. I don't mean that in the flippant way it sounds, I mean it from the serious standpoint of prioritizing your ideals.
Ok, so I'm just going to back up a minute here because my issue isn't that I don't feel like I'm being feminist enough in my marriage . I obviously gave that impression off mistakenly and that's not really what the issue is.
The issue is: I do not feel like my true self in my marriage.
Part of it is that I kowtow to my husband without any reason except to avoid his displeasure.
Part of it is I am trying to achieve a marriage ideal I don't actually believe in because I feel like it is more peaceful. I have come to the realization that I have absolutely no evidence that this ideal is more peaceful, but that trying to strive for it makes me miserable.
Part of it is that my husband used to be my outlet for my overactive brain and now he isn't and I feel really really sad about that. Sad and frustrated.
Why I posted the feminist article is because I'm looking at other ways of approaching my marriage because if I told my husband to read MMSL, I'd be stuck in exactly the same place I am now. My husband and I read the Love Languages book and it got us doing 'nice' things for each other but the feelings behind us speaking each others love language is a shadow of the feelings we got when we were speaking each others exact opposite. Having more sex made me feel even smaller. I posted the feminist article because what it was talking about is something far less commonly ascribed on this site but spoke to me in a genuinely helpful way that I haven't really got from here in awhile.
What I took from that article and subsequent others posting is one thing I can work on in my marriage is to strive for way more "quasi-consensus decision making" and to let go of the fear of making my husband unhappy because sometimes it's going to happen; that there is actually a lot of personal value in staying true to yourself. That's not some feminist ideal I'm striving for, it's what would make me feel more fulfilled in my marriage.
So...I appreciate the looking out Davelli.
Quote:
My grandma never said, "Let him take
the lead."
My grandma said, "Have another piece
of cake and wash it down with a gin
and tonic."
Livelaughnow
I decided to tie up my husband and spank him. Maximum enjoyment does make one feel much better.
Ok, so I'm just going to back up a minute here because my issue isn't that I don't feel like I'm being feminist enough in my marriage . I obviously gave that impression off mistakenly and that's not really what the issue is.
The issue is: I do not feel like my true self in my marriage.
Part of it is that I kowtow to my husband without any reason except to avoid his displeasure.
Part of it is I am trying to achieve a marriage ideal I don't actually believe in because I feel like it is more peaceful. I have come to the realization that I have absolutely no evidence that this ideal is more peaceful, but that trying to strive for it makes me miserable.
Part of it is that my husband used to be my outlet for my overactive brain and now he isn't and I feel really really sad about that. Sad and frustrated.
Why I posted the feminist article is because I'm looking at other ways of approaching my marriage because if I told my husband to read MMSL, I'd be stuck in exactly the same place I am now. My husband and I read the Love Languages book and it got us doing 'nice' things for each other but the feelings behind us speaking each others love language is a shadow of the feelings we got when we were speaking each others exact opposite. Having more sex made me feel even smaller. I posted the feminist article because what it was talking about is something far less commonly ascribed on this site but spoke to me in a genuinely helpful way that I haven't really got from here in awhile.
What I took from that article and subsequent others posting is one thing I can work on in my marriage is to strive for way more "quasi-consensus decision making" and to let go of the fear of making my husband unhappy because sometimes it's going to happen; that there is actually a lot of personal value in staying true to yourself. That's not some feminist ideal I'm striving for, it's what would make me feel more fulfilled in my marriage.
So...I appreciate the looking out Davelli.
Livelaughnow
I decided to tie up my husband and spank him. Maximum enjoyment does make one feel much better.
My apologies. Guess I kinda got sucked into a slight thread derail on feminism. Thanks for the clarification.
When we went to MC, my W mentioned a lot of things that sound like what you're saying: Always giving in to what I wanted to try and be the good wife to have the "ideal", peaceful marriage, all the while losing herself in the process. Our MCor called it the "Southern Belle" syndrome due to how the W feels like she has to live to that old-word ideal, and he said it's very common. What happens if the W never grows out of it, he said, is that eventually she carries around years and years of bitterness and resentment. The trick is for both people to learn to communicate effectively without judgment or accusation.
Like you, I find a lot of what's on TAM to be incredibly male oriented (some of it flat out misogynistic), and like you, that's just not really my thing. There are books out there that don't cater to conventional gender roles, or at least that aren't written with them in mind. One of them that really helped us a lot was "The Seven Principles For Making Marriage Work" by John Gottman. It's one of my favorite marriage books that builds a framework of respect and communication for the married couple. If you've not read it, maybe give it a try and see if it's a better model than what you find on TAM.
Yah, David Schnarch calls marriage a "people building" activity. Married couples are thrown into situations repeatedly where they have to learn to communicate, compromise, sometimes sacrifice, and still uphold their personal boundaries. Sometimes it can seem like it's anything but peaceful, but if both of you are committed to it, then it can be deeply gratifying, especially over the long-haul.
Sometimes when I read your posts, though, I get a sense that maybe your husband is not always that committed to it, and that you are trying to subsume yourself in order to please him, just as you said above.
To me, even as traditionalist as I may be when it comes to marital roles, it does not mean that I as the wife always subsume what I feel is important and constantly defer ... no, rather he (my H) as a head of the household is *required* to consider angles other than just his own. It is not about control, it is about leadership and there is a big difference between the two.
Actually, if you came and observed us, you would think that everything in our household is fairly egalitarian, because for the most part it is - we both have our own special 'roles' that we own and defer to the other on. We both work, we are both busy raising our boys, we do not micro-manage the other, we try to support each other, we defer to the expertise of the other when the area is their area of expertise, we all (me and our boys) defer to my H in moral/spiritual guidance ... if he was a schmuck about leading - if he was being controlling - we wouldn't be following his insight...much like anyone who wouldn't follow someone who is morally bankrupt because they do not have the characteristics of a leader. This is what we have found to work for us in our marriage. It does not mean that it will be what will work for everyone, though.
FrenchFry ... you and your husband have to find out what will work for the both of you ... and that can sometimes be a difficult process. But, you should not have to subsume who you are in a marriage ... instead the marriage should enhance who you are ... it should help you grow into a better, more mature person.
What kind of marital vision does your husband have? What does he expect a husband's role is? What does he expect a wife's role is? Do you discuss this with each other? A lot of times people come into marriage with pre-conceived notions of what being a wife or a husband is, and all the while they have never articulated it in one word to their spouse ... somehow their spouse is just to miraculously know. The only cure for this - speak up!
Wow. Good luck with this. That would certainly not be acceptable to me and I would be finding my happiness elswhere.
And if he chose to leave I would completely understand. The point is not to alter your actions in order to "keep" or "make" someone happy so that they don't leave you or "find happiness elsewhere" - that's manipulation. The point is to make yourself happy. The only way to know if you can have a happy marriage is if both people are not only free to make themselves happy, but also free to leave.
19Likes
Re: Unconventional Advice 
