This is kind of a sub-entry to a problem I posted in the general section. The other members there were very helpful in letting me see that it was OK to be NOT OK with my wife’s frequent and secretive post-partum nightclubbing adventures. Through this board, I was able to discuss it with her and get her to stop (I think. It was a fight where she accused me of being jealous and controlling. She seems to have stopped, but that’s another story). Because she claims that her behavior was totally innocent, and I have no hard proof otherwise, I’ll never get closure through her. Therefore, I’d like to get some unbiased women’s opinions on the appropriateness of a married mother of two going out with her hot married friend until early morning.
- How often do you go out clubbing with female friends, no husband?
- On a scale of 1-10, what is the attraction?
1 – We like to dance. Our body language puts an imaginary invisible wall around us that no man would DARE cross. If they do, they are politely shot down.
10 – HELLO! They call it a “meet market” for a reason. We go out to party with the boys.
- On a scale of 1-10, how much information on these nights do you share with your husband?
1 –Unfortunately, the only good places to dance have certain reputations. Therefore I communicate with my husband beforehand on where I am going. We set ground rules, and I tell him all about it upon my return.
10 – Are you nuts? If I start talking about it too much he’ll wise up and forbid me to go. Therefore I say as little as possible, and lie if he forces a conversation.
- Lastly, if anyone answers “a lot” to the first question, and fall 5 or higher on those next two scales, would you consider it cheating, regardless of whether or not it led to physical infidelity?
Thanks for your opinions. This is driving me crazy.
Man you are taking this way to serious friend... listen, if you have a woman by your side that can even enjoy that kinda stuff anymore let her ...if you are that obsessed with her hire a private eye or babysitter so you can follow them... otherwise, you should make some guy friends if or hang with her friends husband and do the same... if he is not down with it... then do you ever wonder why he is not bothered with his wives actions on this issue talk to him he may have your answer? Otherwise use that time you spend on wondering about her to spend more time with the kids.... after all is said and done they will remember you more than their overzealous fun having mother... the kids are more important just remember that.
I've never gone out night clubbing or to the bars since getting married. There's no way. He doesn't either. If I get together with girlfriends, it's in one of our homes for a "Girls Night Out" and we don't get drunk (I don't drink anyway) but we do play board games and eat lots of stuff we shouldn't. And we sometimes get into racy conversations that end up in hilarious laughter. Same for him - he goes to a friends home. But going to clubs.. nah.. that's for kids, imo.
I dont have any desire to go out clubbing w/o my husband. When I went to the clubs, back when I was single...the purpose was to MEET GUYS...no need for that now. We have both gone with our friends to check out a band here or there, but seriously, "clubbing" is for the single, booty call crowd.
Personally I would love to go out dancing but my husband hates dancing. I haven't had the opportunity to go due to being a pretty new mom but when my daughter is older I will definitely go out once in a while, maybe once every 3 months or so. I would love to go with my husband but as I said he doesn't like to dance. I would probably go with several friends that he knows and trusts. I hate the "meat market" aspect so wouldn't dance with strangers.
I would tell my husband about it, though there probably wouldn't be much to tell.
He does go out once in a while to bars with the boys, maybe once every 3 or 4 months. I trust him.
We do usually go out together though. We've seen two concerts and a burlesque show together in the last 3 months I wish he would take me dancing but that's not gonna happen so I will end up going with other friends later on when I'm not too engrossed in being a mom.
Thanks everyone. I've never had reason to not trust my wife. I have known her for 13 yeas and have never had reason to be jealous. Like Mae, my wife just had 2 babies, and she loves to dance but I don't. That'swhy I couldn't begrudge her her going out. She can't help it that the only place you can dance is in pick-up joints. Not her fault.
However, she's not with a group of friends I trust, she just goes with one that I don't (this friend was hitting on guys on her HONEYMOON). I think she went out at first to "dance", but was quickly enraptured by the meat market aspect: The partying. The flirting. The god-knows-what. It just got more frequent, she became more secretive, and a little deceitful (lies by omission, minimum). Pretending she had NO IDEA that bar hopping at these kinds of places until 3:00 in the morning could POSSIBLY bother me.
As I said before on your other post. She is going out and getting/seeking attention from other men; sorry, but I just don't see it any other way. She is going out way too often and without you. I am sorry but no way can anyone dance that much and not get a little bored with it. Remember, guys are the the night clubs for one purpose only - the hook up! So some guy will hit on her, what happens after that is up to her and I don't see a woman who just had children and is wanting attention turning them down. I wish there was something I could suggest to you to get her to quit going without you but I don't have any ideas.
Sorry everyone. I’ve been commanding too much space and time on this forum for my one little issue. I need to close this.
The partying has stopped. It’s been over 7 weekends since the first (failed attempt at) communication. She hasn’t gone 7 weeks since this all started. I never told her not to go, but my feelings/concerns are now out in the open. She can’t pretend she doesn’t know any more. I think a certain amount of shame is involved as well. She’s actually a good person. And even if I don’t have the impending talk with her before the itch has her heading out the door again, I can still stop her. There’s got to be some serious talking before she goes again, and she won’t be willing to do that.
I can only speculate as to what transpired in the 6 hours that my wife was out of my presence on each of these nights. I have no direct proof and communication was almost nonexistent. Lacking that knowledge, it is best to go with a most likely scenario. Knowing my wife, I feel 100% confident that there were no physical relationships. At worst, slow dances and minor kissing on the dance floor. That is even highly unlikely. It is unlikely she ever left one of these places with anyone, even if it were just to go to another bar.
But emotional relationships don’t need physical contact to hurt. If I found out my wife were sneaking out of bed at 1:00 in the morning to go into internet chat rooms to flirt with strange men, that would be an emotional relationship. If she used the time she had alone while I had the kids at the park to do this, it would also be cheating. Nobody would deny it. I would say my problem has all of that PLUS the physical proximity. The chance for it to go further immediately and with zero chance of detection, as opposed to a difficult and unlikely planned physical rendezvous set up on the internet.
If this were 15 years ago, I’d be suffering this alone. No internet help from people like you, and the term “emotional relationship” was in it’s infancy. This site and the people on it have helped me come to terms with what I have been going through, and helped me develop a plan to start healing the hurt. I need to talk with her. I need to. After 7 months of this and 2 months or so on this board getting advice, I’ve got the outline for the talk. I won’t bore you with the (hopefully not messy) results. But I need to and WILL do it.
I think the culture is slightly different in the US and the UK. It seems that a lot of clubs in the US are just pick up joints.
Here in the UK, most pubs/clubs are pick up joints but you just need to ignore that. My wife likes dancing, I dont, so she occasionally goes out with her friends. She always honest, tells me what shes doing - no problem....
That's my problem. My wife was sneaky and secretive about it. Claims she wouldn't discuss it with me because I'd "act weird" about it. What she doesn't realize is that I'd "act weird" because another way of saying she was "going dancing" is that she was going to be partying at meat markets with strange men until 2 in the morning. And not even tell me where she went. She also knew her behavior was innapropriate. There is NO WAY her and her **** friend just danced in isolation. NO WAY.
I honestly don't think she ever had physical affairs while she was out. I doubt she ever even kissed anyone. But the idea that she was rushing to get away from me and her family to flirt with, dance with, drink with, and just all-around party with strange men makes me ill. Plus, putting yourself in that situation so often exponentially increases the chance of "something happening", even if there was no intent. It's been over two months since she stopped and it still makes me want to vomit.
Have you talked with her about going with? You might find that it is a turn on 4 you, even if you don't dance with her, you could watch. That could allow your wife to dance and have fun with her friends and with you too. I love to dance my husband will dance... but usually he ops to sit down and watch me and my girlfriends on the dance floor. My girlfriends husbands usually get a kick out of seeling us dance together. They love to see us turn down guys and point over at our men. I'm told that thier husbands get off on this... mine doesn't - but that is another story.
To answer your earlier question yes I have gone without him. But not that often ... maybe every 2 - 3 months. My girlfriends and I are truely focused on just having fun together. We turn down guys - so if your wife is cute ... then I'm sure she gets hit on, and drinks sent her way. But that doesn't mean she dances with anyone or even talks to them. I know my girlfriends and I have no interest in that. In fact we have even opted to go to gay bars -even though I am in NO way interested in women - we can dance without having to worry about guys comming up to us (they are too interested in other men, and the women there just think we are into each other) Besides gay bars play the best music
I used to tell my husband all the gory details, until recently he would laugh along with me. Once he became angry and accusatory about it... I stopped telling him about my evenings. But truthfully, once I realized he was feeling threatened I stopped going all together. He didn't need to tell me to stop, it was obvious he didn't like it. Now I will only go if he comes with.
but we do go out to eat weekly, where we have a drink or two, literally a drink or two, neither of us are drinkers.
The nightclubs around us are meat markets with overpriced drinks and cops hanging out outside waiting for people to leave to ticket them for DUI's.
The city gets a good revenue from cops partolling the nightclubs, lots of tickets= lots of fines paid to the city.
We are not wanting any part of any of that. Won't be us paying in extra
Plus, putting yourself in that situation so often exponentially increases the chance of "something happening", even if there was no intent. It's been over two months since she stopped and it still makes me want to vomit.
Yeah I would feel the same way. Add alcohol and bad or impaired judgement and you have things happen that you did not expect.
I have gotten a lot out of this site, but you have to be careful, because there is some advice, mixed among all the good, that is, shall we say, less than wise.
First of all, you are NOT wrong to feel upset about your wife going out late at night, leaving you alone. This is not a mature thing to do, and I'm sure you did not get married so you can be alone at night.
In reading this whole thread, there is a lot I could say, but I will try to be somewhat brief. If your wife truly loves you and respects you, then if her action bothers you so much she should be willing to change it for you. There are those that would disagree with me, but it is also true that many people want the security of marriage but still want to live their lives as though they are single and have no other person to give an account to (like a spouse or children).
I have respect for women's intelligence and their well-known intuition. So how is it that a woman cannot be aware that men don't think like they do? There are certain places that a woman can go that casts her in a certain light (ex, "easy," "available," etc.) in the eyes of men, whether right or wrong. Bars and night clubs are two of those places.
I would also have to wonder why a woman who really does not dance with strange men, or flirt, or is looking for a hookup, wants to go to a place like that? After all, if you're really not looking for that, then what's in it for a person to even go there? Surely she and the girlfriends can find a place to socialize that is less vulnerable or compromising. Maybe at the very least she's looking for an ego-stroking. I'm not saying she has committed a specific act, but she had placed herself in a bad situation and should have known better.
I think people either don't understand all that marriage means, or they do but don't really care. When you get married, you belong to each other. That doesn't mean you OWN each other or any such non-sense, but that it does mean that you pledge certain things to each other, like loyalty and taking the other person's feelings and views into account when making certain decisions, not just dashing off with a carefree, like-it-or-leave-it attitude. People need to remember that their actions affect their spouse and children, that they have certain responsibilities. It goes with the territory of being married. If someone doesn't like that, then they should stay single if they are already.
I would be upset at the thought of my wife being in a place where she may (however unjustifiably) be seen as an easy target by men-players. When strangers dance, the woman may notice the guy's shirt or how well he moves his feet, while the man may be undressing the woman with his eyes and wondering how she'd be in bed. This is not always true, but if you want to know the truth, that is pretty much the general case, especially in places like that where it is basically the hunters and the prey. Someone may get on here, who goes to places like that and is part of the 5% exception to the rule, but that doesn't change the general way things are. I don't like the way things are - it's messed up - I'm just calling it straight.
Also, I'm guessing you already knew her actions were not right - you just needed to know you weren't all alone in your thinking. You probably were told by others around you that you shouldn't make such a big deal of it, that her actions were okay, that you are being too controlling, obsessed, too jealous, too this, too that, blah blah blah. Well, you are being a normal, concerned husband. Somehow, we've gotten to the point that if we really love someone enough to be concerned about them and to want them to steer clear of trouble, then we're "controlling." Well, by that logic, I guess I should let my kids play in the street because I love them too much to be "controlling," or I should play Russian Roulette because I don't want to control myself too much by refusing due to the danger.
Bumber-sticker philosophy just doesn't hold water. People say things like, "if you love her enough, let her be free," etc. I say, if you love someone, and they are doing things that could harm themselves or you or your family, then you are acting like a FOOL to not take action or express concern.
I despise the Archie-bunker, women-are-possessions mentality of men of years past and even many today, but we've swung in the opposite direction, where men do not stand up enough for the right and put their foot down and not take garbage just because they're afraid of being labeled as controlling or some other baloney.
I haven't even mentioned her reputation. Does she care about that?