Scared for my kids!?! - Page 4 - Talk About Marriage
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post #46 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-29-2016, 04:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Originally Posted by xxyesenia25 View Post
Hopefully there won't be a next time but please call police immediately so there is a report on it. Plus with his background it will only give you leverage. Please assure your children that they must tell you everything that happens (sometimes they feel threatened) last do they have their own phone they can contact you with in case something happens again? Set up a plan if he is being abusive have them run out of the house at a safe location and call you. Immediately involve police.


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I agree. I pray there is no next time, but if there is - I have already made up my mind that my first call will be to the police. I'm beating myself up somewhat for not doing that the first time - and maybe he got lucky due to my lack of experience. I don't know. I do know it will never happen this way again. The next time the boys in blue will be arriving.

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post #47 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-29-2016, 04:58 PM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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I agree. I pray there is no next time, but if there is - I have already made up my mind that my first call will be to the police. I'm beating myself up somewhat for not doing that the first time - and maybe he got lucky due to my lack of experience. I don't know. I do know it will never happen this way again. The next time the boys in blue will be arriving.
Have you made that very clear to your ex?

You are in a horrible position but ultimately you are your children's advocate and if in your shoes I would do everything possible to avoid a repeat incident, after the fact is too late.
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post #48 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-29-2016, 04:59 PM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Originally Posted by Surfer Joe View Post
From what I understand, any spanking that leaves a bruise is considered child abuse in my state.

Personally, I have never spanked them as I don't believe it works. My opinion. She swatted them a few times while we were married, but never very hard. She slapped them a few times, too. I made it clear I did not accept that and did not want to see it happen.
I couldn't agree more, but I didn't want to sidetrack the thread away from your major issue.
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post #49 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-29-2016, 05:09 PM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Originally Posted by WonkyNinja View Post
Leaving the overall spanking / no-spanking issue aside spanking doesn't leave bruises that a doctor can detect and identify days later. That is way beyond spanking and into abuse.

You do get to determine who can and cannot discipline your kids. Just because they are with your ex-spouse doesn't mean that your responsibility for them ends. You would hope that you can trust your ex with their safety, even if not everything is they way you would like it, but if that isn't being adhered to then it is every parents responsibility to protect their children.

If she won't do that then he has to.
Let's test this: Does the XW have to have approval from OP to get a babysitter for a couple of hours? They're being permitted a certain level of authority to discipline. But no, he has no such authority. Does the XW get to tell him "I didn't give you permission to let your mother discipline our kids!" No, no she doesn't.

He has no legal authority over who gets to discipline the kids while they are at XW's house. He does have legal authority over who does so in his home. She has the same limitations. She is Queen of her castle, just has he is King of his. Just because you wish it were different doesn't change it.

I'm really unmoved by the "Oh there was a 'detectable' bruise!" claim. Spankings often leave bruises. Hell, grabbing your kid's arm to keep them out of a dangerous situation leaves bruises. I think it's quite a legitimate question to ask: Is this abuse? Rather than jumping to "ABUSER!" Without more context, this sounds to me like the kind of behavior someone would see in a parent who is trying to abuse CPS to alienate their former spouse from the kids.

But I err on the side of parental discretion, and less on the side of the state in these matters. Again, I think a lot of this is going to be determined by the OPs circumstances.

OP you seem to have a problem with spanking in general. Does your W know and understand this? Is this a new development so far as telling the XW no to such behavior?

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post #50 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-29-2016, 05:44 PM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

Kivlor,
This guy has a criminal record. And not a one time thing either.

Family court is not driven by the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard. It is a civil court driven by a 'preponderance of evidence.' standard.

Leaving young children in the care of a convicted felon is way beyond the threshold needed in family court.

This isn't a false claim scenario - it's a legitimate risk.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Let's test this: Does the XW have to have approval from OP to get a babysitter for a couple of hours? They're being permitted a certain level of authority to discipline. But no, he has no such authority. Does the XW get to tell him "I didn't give you permission to let your mother discipline our kids!" No, no she doesn't.

He has no legal authority over who gets to discipline the kids while they are at XW's house. He does have legal authority over who does so in his home. She has the same limitations. She is Queen of her castle, just has he is King of his. Just because you wish it were different doesn't change it.

I'm really unmoved by the "Oh there was a 'detectable' bruise!" claim. Spankings often leave bruises. Hell, grabbing your kid's arm to keep them out of a dangerous situation leaves bruises. I think it's quite a legitimate question to ask: Is this abuse? Rather than jumping to "ABUSER!" Without more context, this sounds to me like the kind of behavior someone would see in a parent who is trying to abuse CPS to alienate their former spouse from the kids.

But I err on the side of parental discretion, and less on the side of the state in these matters. Again, I think a lot of this is going to be determined by the OPs circumstances.

OP you seem to have a problem with spanking in general. Does your W know and understand this? Is this a new development so far as telling the XW no to such behavior?
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post #51 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-29-2016, 10:52 PM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
He has no legal authority over who gets to discipline the kids while they are at XW's house. He does have legal authority over who does so in his home.
If they have "joint legal custody," then he has an equal right to make any/all decisions at any/all times.

Also,

767.451 Revision of legal custody and physical placement orders. Except for matters under s. 767.461 or 767.481, the following provisions are applicable to modifications of legal custody and physical placement orders:
(1) Substantial modifications.
(a) Within 2 years after final judgment. Except as provided under sub. (2), a court may not modify any of the following orders before 2 years after the final judgment determining legal custody or physical placement is entered under s. 767.41, unless a party seeking the modification, upon petition, motion, or order to show cause, shows by substantial evidence that the modification is necessary because the current custodial conditions are physically or emotionally harmful to the best interest of the child:
(1) An order of legal custody.
(2) An order of physical placement if the modification would substantially alter the time a parent may spend with his or her child.
...

I assume you currently have "Joint Legal Custody" of your two children. If that is the case, the court assumes that you and your ex-wife, together, will make all "Major Decisions" decisions regarding your children.

Since you do not intend to alter the time either one of you spend with your children, no physical placement orders would need to be revised.

As I suggested before, imho the quickest and most efficient way to handle your current situation would be to file a temporary protective restraining order against your ex-wife's boyfriend. He will not be allowed to be in the unsupervised presence of your children at any time.

That will most likely put the kibosh on his hiatus with your ex-wife. Unless he is a complete nut job and decides to fvck up his life any more than he already has, this guy will take off running. I don't think he wants trouble, he finds enough of that when he goes batshˇt crazy.

You do not need to prove abuse to obtain a TPO, you only need an allegation of phyaical or emotional abuse. The physiological stressors causing encopresis in your daughter are enough to suspect emotional abuse, the hand print is enough to suspect physical abuse. If CPS has been in fact notified, you already have allegations of abuse. No further charges need to be filed, and nobody gets in trouble as long as the protective order is obeyed.

If your ex-wife's boyfriend or your ex wife violates the protective order, then you should seek sole custody of your children (without modifying placement) this gives you absolute power to decide who your children are around at any time, and only you are allowed to make all major decisions concerning your children. Your ex-wife would become a guardian parent but not have legal custody. She would need a warrant to take physical custody from you and you would not need one to take the kids back from her. Still, you can honor the current physical placement schedule.

Last edited by foolscotton3; 06-30-2016 at 01:27 AM.
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post #52 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-29-2016, 11:57 PM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Does the XW get to tell him "I didn't give you permission to let your mother discipline our kids!" No, no she doesn't.
According to state statutes, a parent to a custodial parent is considered a guardian in the absence of a present custodial parent.

Live in boyfriends are not guardians, regardless of the presence of a custodial parent.

A better example of this statute in action would be: He is within his rights as a custodial parent to take physical custody of his children from his ex-wife's boyfriend, yet his ex-wife would need a warrant to take physical custody of her own children from his mother.


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post #53 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 10:09 AM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Let's test this: Does the XW have to have approval from OP to get a babysitter for a couple of hours? They're being permitted a certain level of authority to discipline. But no, he has no such authority. Does the XW get to tell him "I didn't give you permission to let your mother discipline our kids!" No, no she doesn't.

He has no legal authority over who gets to discipline the kids while they are at XW's house. He does have legal authority over who does so in his home. She has the same limitations. She is Queen of her castle, just has he is King of his. Just because you wish it were different doesn't change it.

I'm really unmoved by the "Oh there was a 'detectable' bruise!" claim. Spankings often leave bruises. Hell, grabbing your kid's arm to keep them out of a dangerous situation leaves bruises. I think it's quite a legitimate question to ask: Is this abuse? Rather than jumping to "ABUSER!" Without more context, this sounds to me like the kind of behavior someone would see in a parent who is trying to abuse CPS to alienate their former spouse from the kids.

But I err on the side of parental discretion, and less on the side of the state in these matters. Again, I think a lot of this is going to be determined by the OPs circumstances.

OP you seem to have a problem with spanking in general. Does your W know and understand this? Is this a new development so far as telling the XW no to such behavior?
No, he doesn't get to control the babysitters but she is also obligated to ensure that her children are protected at all times. A record of multiple convictions for violent offenses doesn't exactly put this guy in line for an Angie's List Babysitter of The Year award.

As a parent and guardian he does have legal authority, and obligation, to ensure that his children are protected.

Are you a parent? Would you be OK with your kids coming home with bruises on them?

Spanking leaves red marks not bruises.
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post #54 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 10:20 AM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Originally Posted by WonkyNinja View Post
No, he doesn't get to control the babysitters but she is also obligated to ensure that her children are protected at all times. A record of multiple convictions for violent offenses doesn't exactly put this guy in line for an Angie's List Babysitter of The Year award.

As a parent and guardian he does have legal authority, and obligation, to ensure that his children are protected.

Are you a parent? Would you be OK with your kids coming home with bruises on them?

Spanking leaves red marks not bruises.
Bruises don't bother me much. As I've repeatedly said, some kids bruise easily.

No, I don't have any children, but I've raised several. And my experiences with those kids gives me tremendous trepidation at calling the police and CPS at every tiny turn. If OP's XW has any brain, she will weaponize the police and CPS against him as a response, and utilize that to neutralize this threat, then let it play out before a judge. He is a man and will be at a tremendous disadvantage if she does.

Would I want this guy around my children? No. But getting divorced would put me in the position of having to accept that I don't get to choose who my XW dates / lives with / marries. I don't get to have everything I want when I have a broken home, because her home isn't my home. C'est la vie.

Again, I am not saying this is all okay, I'm pointing out that the advice here is turning into a witch hunt. Everyone has determined that this is ABUSE! all off of the claim that there was "a detectable bruise". Which doesn't mean it wasn't abuse, but isn't exactly the term most people would use to describe abuse.

Most of this can likely be resolved without involving courts, attorneys, the police, and CPS. But if OP doesn't want to use diplomacy or feels it will not be effective; well, that's his row to hoe.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
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For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...

Last edited by Kivlor; 06-30-2016 at 10:26 AM.
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post #55 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 10:41 AM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post

He has no legal authority over who gets to discipline the kids while they are at XW's house. He does have legal authority over who does so in his home. She has the same limitations. She is Queen of her castle, just has he is King of his. Just because you wish it were different doesn't change it.

I'm really unmoved by the "Oh there was a 'detectable' bruise!" claim. Spankings often leave bruises. Hell, grabbing your kid's arm to keep them out of a dangerous situation leaves bruises. I think it's quite a legitimate question to ask: Is this abuse? Rather than jumping to "ABUSER!" Without more context, this sounds to me like the kind of behavior someone would see in a parent who is trying to abuse CPS to alienate their former spouse from the kids.
I have to disagree with this based on an understanding of the law as it pertains to these matters.

Claims of abuse aside..and I agree that often the other parent uses specious claims not so much as accurate descriptors but as a legal weapons, a boyfriend who leaves bruises on a child is guilty of assault, which is a class one felony. They do not have any legal standing to provide "Discipline". What this other person is doing is taking it upon himself to disregard the law and intervene in a way that not only violates the child, but can bring with it rather significant legal sanctions.

The OP should contact his lawyer, who needs to file some emergency motions.

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post #56 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 11:53 AM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Bruises don't bother me much.
Wow.

"A healthy choice to enforce boundaries by walking away from a dysfunctional relationship has more to do with recognizing the likeliest outcomes than with wanting to punish or retaliate against one's wayward spouse."

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post #57 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 12:37 PM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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See if you can find out who his parole officer is. He has minimal rights on parole. There may be restrictions on him about being around kids. If you report what happened to the parole officer that officer may investigate and possibly put him back in jail.
Great advice!

Get with your attorney ASAP and start proceedings to get the custody changed. It may be a wakeup call for her and light a fire under her ass to get him out of her life if the reality of losing her children is thrown in her face.

She is a real piece of work, for sure. Even if she DOES get rid of him, you may want to look at getting the custody changed, because CLEARLY her children's best interest is NOT her priority!

Life is too short to spend time with people who suck the happiness out of you.

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post #58 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 12:43 PM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

Considering his criminal history, have you checked the child sex offender registry in your state to make sure he isn't on it?
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post #59 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 01:10 PM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Wow.
Keep in mind he isn't a parent....

Life is too short to spend time with people who suck the happiness out of you.

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post #60 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 02:33 PM
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Re: Scared for my kids!?!

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Keep in mind he isn't a parent....
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Originally Posted by ThreeStrikes View Post
Wow.
I had a different upbringing. I'm of the school of thought that we all get bruises, we all get hurt and that one of the most important lessons to pass on to the next generation is that pain is temporary and often necessary.

Like I said, I've raised several kids. 6 total. Day and night. Diapers and bottles. Schoolwork and play. Judge me if you like. I sincerely doubt you have the experience with as many children living in your home, under your care.

I generally don't think spanking is that effective, but I recognize that it's common practice for most parents. And if it didn't leave a bruise, it wasn't much of a spanking, was it?

But there are different degrees of "bruising" as well. Which is what I keep going back to. If it appeared abusive, I don't think the OP would have used the term "detectable". It would have been "terrible" or "big" or "dark" or "nasty" or any other of a thousand words that would describe something as being abusive. Maybe I'm wrong, I've certainly left it open for me to be so. The OP knows this situation better than I do, I'm just reading his story as he writes it on the interwebs.

I will say I find it pitiable that so many would classify a "detectable bruise" as abuse. It makes light of something very grave. I've been abused, and I'll tell you from experience this is a complete overstatement of the term. What entitled, effortless, fragile lives you must have lived to jump to such conclusions.

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For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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