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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-21-2016, 11:59 PM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

What many people are suggesting (you over reacted) is most likely wrong. Dealing with a person who is BPD is living in awhole different universe. They seem to have a built in pyscho babble Phd to justify their actions. Read @Uptown many posts.


How to deal with an unrepentant spouse: an Irish person can tell a person to go to hell and have them so excited at the prospect they demand to know when, where the train is leaving and how to get a ticket. Then offer them a loan to get the ticket and a ride to the train station. Be Irish
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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 07:42 AM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

John, thanks again for recommending my posts on BPD. Actually, Thomas and I discussed BPD support groups several days ago in his other thread.

Thomas, it is evident that you already are quite knowledgeable about BPD behaviors. But, if you would like to read about my experiences with my exW, I would suggest you take a look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs and my more detailed description of them in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join John and the other respondents in discussing them with you.
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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 07:46 AM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

The key here, I think, is to keep your emotion out of it. Out of all of it. She'll feed on the emotion.
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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 08:44 AM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

Your obvious frustration and defensiveness in your emails is like nectar of the gods for a BPDer.

Anything in text must be emotionless and matter of fact in delivery.

"If you deliberately plan on being less than you are capable of being, then I warn you that you'll be unhappy for the rest of your life."

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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

She wrote:

Quote:
In fact both girls were adamant that [DD 5yr old] never gets any medicine at your house except for lovenox, which I find hard to believe.
This was the part that I reacted to, the straw that broke the camels back... I replied before getting any further in her e-mail, and broke down after it. Which is rare for me. I'm a sensitive guy, but very logical and rational in how I deal with life. I have strong emotions, but I lead life with logic... and in the cases where I feel emotions driving my actions I feel very at odds, and lack an internal peace, I tend to start over thinking to an extreme (analyzing) when this happens... it's why I start to lose sleep and spin on things until I understand why and how I'm feeling the way I am, and then the emotions seem to have no affect after I do. That's why support from people who understand means a lot... getting perspectives and awareness from others who've been through similar helps me to develop my own understanding of what's happening around me. I read all of the responses above and I'm very appreciative for everyones thoughts and insights. It's more helpful than you know.

Not sure how much people here know of Myers Briggs... I'm a typical INTJ, though low J... so I tend to be a bit more contemplative (like the twin INTP) assessing things from multiple angles and my life it seems is about strategizing and organizing things to be efficient based on my internal value system, which is about my daughters and protecting them, in almost all interactions I have with her. That was the basis, I think, in my reaction above... I couldn't believe she'd make something like the quote above up... it's mild compared to what others here have dealt with. Maybe my ex-wife doesn't have BPD, but she has some variant... the chaos and her lack of ever being happy despite navigating her life into situations where we very well could be if she wanted to, just confuses me.

Anyway... I was analyzing this more in my mind this morning and wondering if I needed to defend myself on this, but then thought that maybe it should be left alone at this point. I thought about my desire to quote the sentence above and ask her to clarify her statement and the words "adamant" and "never" and how she concluded that based on what was said. I recognize that my desire to do this is to defend myself, which may just get her riled up again (better left alone?)... what do you guys think?

Quote:
[ex-wife] I'm glad we're on the same page. I have concerns about that statement: "adamant that [DD 5yr old] never gets any medicine at your house." Would you mind adding context as to how the girls communicated this to you? It does not jive with reality.
Someone told me that quoting her words is not a good thing to do, as she'd interpret it as invalidating her point (which even if made up, in her mind is reality)... which she views as an attack
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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 10:09 AM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

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She wrote:



This was the part that I reacted to, the straw that broke the camels back... I replied before getting any further in her e-mail, and broke down after it. Which is rare for me. I'm a sensitive guy, but very logical and rational in how I deal with life. I have strong emotions, but I lead life with logic... and in the cases where I feel emotions driving my actions I feel very at odds, and lack an internal peace, I tend to start over thinking to an extreme (analyzing) when this happens... it's why I start to lose sleep and spin on things until I understand why and how I'm feeling the way I am, and then the emotions seem to have no affect after I do. That's why support from people who understand means a lot... getting perspectives and awareness from others who've been through similar helps me to develop my own understanding of what's happening around me. I read all of the responses above and I'm very appreciative for everyones thoughts and insights. It's more helpful than you know.

Not sure how much people here know of Myers Briggs... I'm a typical INTJ, though low J... so I tend to be a bit more contemplative (like the twin INTP) assessing things from multiple angles and my life it seems is about strategizing and organizing things to be efficient based on my internal value system, which is about my daughters and protecting them, in almost all interactions I have with her. That was the basis, I think, in my reaction above... I couldn't believe she'd make something like the quote above up... it's mild compared to what others here have dealt with. Maybe my ex-wife doesn't have BPD, but she has some variant... the chaos and her lack of ever being happy despite navigating her life into situations where we very well could be if she wanted to, just confuses me.

Anyway... I was analyzing this more in my mind this morning and wondering if I needed to defend myself on this, but then thought that maybe it should be left alone at this point. I thought about my desire to quote the sentence above and ask her to clarify her statement and the words "adamant" and "never" and how she concluded that based on what was said. I recognize that my desire to do this is to defend myself, which may just get her riled up again (better left alone?)... what do you guys think?



Someone told me that quoting her words is not a good thing to do, as she'd interpret it as invalidating her point (which even if made up, in her mind is reality)... which she views as an attack
I think it is also important to figure out exactly why you feel the need to defend yourself in the first place. Keeping in mind exactly who she is, and the possible disorder she has...What is your end goal with engaging her? What are you trying to accomplish? Obviously you are right in the materiel sense in this situation...you gave the meds just as you were supposed to, you were right so from that sense, there is nothing to defend. Now, again, keeping in mind who she is, do you feel a need to be validated as right by her? Do you need her to acknowledge that you were right and she wrong? If so, to what end? Simply being right for the sake of being right? Is she even capable of making that concession? Admitting that you were right, and she was wrong?

"Let's never stop having sex. We're so good at it, we OWE it to sex to never stop having it."
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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 10:32 AM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

You are human, you had a knee jerk reaction and replied too soon. Who of us haven't at one time or another?

In reading your post, before I connected it in my head with your other posts, her email came across as perfect wording for a situation. It sounded just like something *I* would send to my XH if I had a concern. After connecting the dots in your backstory, I totally see why you think what you think. It's only a normal email if your ex handles things in a normal way.

When dealing with a situation like this, agreed...record it and back that thang up. What a shame you don't have at least joint custody...sorry you have to deal with all this! Keep being a great dad. They need you!!

Ciao,

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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 10:38 AM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

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You are human, you had a knee jerk reaction and replied too soon. Who of us haven't at one time or another?

In reading your post, before I connected it in my head with your other posts, her email came across as perfect wording for a situation. It sounded just like something *I* would send to my XH if I had a concern. After connecting the dots in your backstory, I totally see why you think what you think. It's only a normal email if your ex handles things in a normal way.

When dealing with a situation like this, agreed...record it and back that thang up. What a shame you don't have at least joint custody...sorry you have to deal with all this! Keep being a great dad. They need you!!
And this causes problems when dealing with people who are not, well, human. You will not get a normal human response, and there is always a price to pay for any knee jerk reactions. Total and complete self control at all times is exceedingly important. Especially when it is the mother who has primary custody. The courts and society as a whole are inherently biased towards mothers, they will get the benefit of the doubt, and ones with disorders such as this are masters at manipulating things in their favor, because very few others see the disorder, and they can always hide it long enough to get what they are after...it is imperative to never give them any kind of extra ammunition.

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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 11:04 AM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

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Originally Posted by Thomas0311 View Post
That's excellent advice, it would be simple to record a video on my phone and upload it to my Google Drive daily. I can make a game out of it with my daughter as we say what day it is every time she takes her meds. "What's today!? December 21st... is it Tuesday? nope Wednesday!"... Create folders for each year/month. I like that idea
I agree with the recording... it's not hard to do. Perhaps you could get a tripod to put your phone on..I've seen some small ones that could go on the bathroom counter. Then get both of your girls in the video.

The best way to end this nonsense is to CYA to the extreme. And no harsh words. Just the evidence...
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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 11:31 AM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

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I agree with the recording... it's not hard to do. Perhaps you could get a tripod to put your phone on..I've seen some small ones that could go on the bathroom counter. Then get both of your girls in the video.

The best way to end this nonsense is to CYA to the extreme. And no harsh words. Just the evidence...
No doubt documenting is a good thing to do in case she moved forward claiming something is actionable...IE...taking him to court over something. The thing is with people like his ex wife...they aren't looking for something actionable. They are looking for any excuse to continue contact in such a way as to further reinforce in their own mind that they are right and the other one is wrong. They look for any situation to demonstrate not only their superiority, but also their humbleness, sacrifice, their martyrdom. Using any gathered evidence against them directly will only reinforce what they are looking for.

As to taking things like this to court oneself, it is unlikely to go anywhere fast, and actually backfire, because as we saw here...the normal reaction to her initial email was that she was being totally reasonable, and he looked like he was over reacting. The courts are almost assuredly going to see it the same way, and then she will have the backing of the courts confirming that she is indeed a victim, has a vindictive ex.


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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 11:40 AM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

Just looking back through these threads...another thing to remember...the only "accusations" that actually mean anything are ones made before the courts. She can, and will, spout as much crap as she wants, and there will be a tendency to want to defend against the "accusations" to correct them, to set the record straight if you will.

Again, one has to ask themselves what is the intended end game of engaging to defend? You already know that there is nothing you can say or do that will change their mind, so that is never a valid reason to engage...that boils down to engaging simply for the purpose of engaging...which is exactly what they were after in the first place. They run their mouths and spew a lot of complete and utter crap...that unless it comes from a court order, doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

The sole focus needs to be on maintaining the relationship with the kids knowing full well that their mother is going to be filling their heads with crap...in the same, seemingly reasonable and polite way...and there is not much one can do to stop that. The best way to counter that is by being the best dad, showing them through actions a very different picture than their mother is giving them.

"Let's never stop having sex. We're so good at it, we OWE it to sex to never stop having it."
-My wife

Last edited by samyeagar; 12-22-2016 at 11:45 AM.
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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

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I think it is also important to figure out exactly why you feel the need to defend yourself in the first place. Keeping in mind exactly who she is, and the possible disorder she has...What is your end goal with engaging her? What are you trying to accomplish? Obviously you are right in the materiel sense in this situation...you gave the meds just as you were supposed to, you were right so from that sense, there is nothing to defend. Now, again, keeping in mind who she is, do you feel a need to be validated as right by her? Do you need her to acknowledge that you were right and she wrong? If so, to what end? Simply being right for the sake of being right? Is she even capable of making that concession? Admitting that you were right, and she was wrong?
Thank you, this is incredibly helpful. It seems so obvious when you ask, because my answer to that question is that yes, I want validation, and I know all this sounds ridiculous, but I think writing it out will help me to see just how crazy it is...

I want her to admit fault, to apologize for abusing my second chance at our marriage, for involving my daughters in her affairs (introducing three of the men to them), and I want her to just recognize all the pain that caused me so we can move forward in the interest of our daughters... more complex then that, I want to be appreciated for every concession I've made, rather than highlighted as a villain for the random outburst that she relishes provoking... I wish I was appreciated for giving her 75% time with the girls on paper with the understanding she wanted me in their lives and would move it to 50/50 later when they started school, for believing her that she needed spousal support to stay at home and care for them, when really she went and got a job as soon as it was signed, for then extending the spousal support 6 months because she said she was planning to go to school and asked for it to better her situation with finding an apartment for the girls (she stayed at her parents house then and never went to school) for her collecting spousal support for 2.5 years and getting married the day it ended (yes the actual day of her last check she told me she was getting married...) for giving her 60% of everything in the divorce, because I have a good career and know I'll recover.). For giving her the brand new car, and all the furniture, thinking I'd just get new stuff. I know it sounds foolish... but all of that stuff... I feel cheated, abused and taken advantage of. I know they were all my own choices and I take comfort in the fact that I did them all in what I perceived as the interest of my daughters and trying to prevent her from falling on her face and ending up damaging them worse. I was raised in a family where the values in life are doing good by others and eventually it'll pay off.

Recognizing that her apology is unattainable is an important step towards stopping the cycle of needing anything from her... and engaging further than I need to in these exchanges. I think that is the only reason I would bring this back up. It's an attempt to get her to back down from her false allegation, to admit "yeah, sorry I made that up."... but she's not going to do that. So what this highlights is how unproductive it is to even go down that road.

My goal... is to get past this.

Last edited by Thomas0311; 12-22-2016 at 12:19 PM.
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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 12:22 PM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

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Thank you, this is incredibly helpful. It seems so obvious when you ask, because my answer to that question is that yes, I want validation, and I know all this sounds ridiculous, but I think writing it out will help me to see just how crazy it is...

I want her to admit fault, to apologize for abusing my second chance at our marriage, for involving my daughters in her affairs (introducing three of the men to them), and I want her to just recognize all the pain that caused me so we can move forward in the interest of our daughters... more complex then that, I want to be appreciated for every concession I've made, rather than highlighted as a villain for the random outburst that she relishes provoking... I wish I was appreciated for giving her 75% time with the girls on paper with the understanding she wanted me in their lives and would move it to 50/50 later when they started school, for believing her that she needed spousal support to stay at home and care for them, when really she went and got a job as soon as it was signed, for then extending the spousal support 6 months because she said she was planning to go to school and asked for it to better her situation with finding an apartment for the girls (she stayed at her parents house then and never went to school) for her collecting spousal support for 2.5 years and getting married the day it ended (yes the actual day of her last check she told me she was getting married...) for giving her 60% of everything in the divorce, because I have a good career and know I'll recover.). For giving her the brand new car, and all the furniture, thinking I'd just get new stuff. I know it sounds foolish... but all of that stuff... I feel cheated, abused and taken advantage of. I know they were all my own choices and I take comfort in the fact that I did them all in what I perceived as the interest of my daughters and trying to prevent her from falling on her face and ending up damaging them worse. I was raised in a family where the values in life are doing good by others and eventually it'll pay off.

Recognizing that her apology is unattainable is an important step towards stopping the cycle of needing anything from her... and engaging further than I need to in these exchanges. I think that is the only reason I would bring this back up. It's an attempt to get her to back down from her false allegation, to admit "yeah, sorry I made that up."... but she's not going to do that. So what this highlights is how unproductive it is to even go down that road.

My goal... is to get past this.
An even more important step is in realizing that you do not need her apology, or her validation. You already know the truth, and anybody who values you does too. It's time you start believing it within yourself. Besides...is she really the type of person you want validation from anyway?

"Let's never stop having sex. We're so good at it, we OWE it to sex to never stop having it."
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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

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An even more important step is in realizing that you do not need her apology, or her validation. You already know the truth, and anybody who values you does too. It's time you start believing it within yourself. Besides...is she really the type of person you want validation from anyway?
You're absolutely right. I need to remind myself of this. My mother said that eventually I'll develop the confidence to understand what a great father I am, and won't feel the need to defend that to people based on what she's up to at the time. It just shows. I believe she was speaking to the same point.
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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 12:47 PM
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Re: Need Advice: Ex-wife False Allegations Involving Children

Not sure if this should make you feel better...the whole misery loves company thing...or terrify you that I am five years post divorce, but here is a text convo with my ex from just yesterday...brief background first though...she gets our youngest on Christmas Day. I get him on Christmas Eve. She has him participating in multiple time demanding activities, and I have not had a complete uninterrupted visitation with him in over six months. Many forgone all together. She has primary physical custody, and I get every other weekend, and the infamous generous visitation when mutually agreed upon... He is 14.

ME: We are planning on going to my parents on Saturday, but would like for <son> to come here to do Christmas beforehand. His stepsister is coming here through <their town> Thursday afternoon. Would it be alright if she picked him up then, and we bring him back Saturday evening?

Her: We talked this morning. We've decided to keep our plans. With me working all the time, and him either away with friends(because I'm the one saccrifices my weekends for friends) or competing, we don't get much time to spend together just hanging out. And I don't want to disappoint others who were going. I know I've mentioned it before but maybe a bit more heads up would work. We've decided to keep the plans we had previously made.

Me: I lose a lot of my very limited time. When can I get him?

Her: He's a teenager. I can either let you know when we are done with the event and you can grab him on Friday (that's still early) or your time on Saturday.

Me: When can I get him on Friday.

Her: I don't know. He is sick.

"Let's never stop having sex. We're so good at it, we OWE it to sex to never stop having it."
-My wife
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