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post #76 of 91 (permalink) Old 06-05-2015, 07:21 AM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

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In the last several years, I have heard several preachers say they have had couples come to them asking to be married, and they already had the attitude that if it didn't work they could always get divorced. Culture sure has changed.
That's actually not shocking (but it should be).

It's funny, because I'm rather old-school, even though I just sneaked in to the Gen X camp. I believe in "til death do us part" - to a point. I don't believe in staying together for the kids, or sticking it out through such things as infidelity, etc. But if something is fixable, then it should be fixed, imo. I think that if two people loved one another enough to get married, then it can be recovered if and when it deteriorates.

My first marriage was fixable, imo. She fell out of love with me, for whatever reason, but didn't make the effort to try and recover it. Instead, she quit. And that's the real problem in marriage these days - quitting. People no longer see divorce as something that's embarrassing and that they want to avoid. Rather, it's become an option that's incredibly mainstream and accepted. People don't even bat an eye these days when you tell them you're divorced. It's become the norm.

I'm starting to see more and more people (including friends and family) who just don't see the point of marriage any more. And they're actually not wrong. To many people, it's no longer the ultimate symbol of love. It's not an institution any more. Also, weddings can cost a heck of a lot of money. Something that many people just don't have enough of these days. Plus, if the relationship doesn't work out, it's just easier to not have to go through all the legal aspects of it (and potentially cheaper, too).

After my divorce, I didn't expect or plan on getting married again, primarily for all of those reasons above. But my wife had never been married, and wanted a wedding (and also we were high school sweethearts, so it seemed appropriate anyway). But the reality is that if she had been previously married as well, it's unlikely we would have gone that route, truthfully.

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post #77 of 91 (permalink) Old 06-05-2015, 09:23 AM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

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That's actually not shocking (but it should be).

It's funny, because I'm rather old-school, even though I just sneaked in to the Gen X camp. I believe in "til death do us part" - to a point. I don't believe in staying together for the kids, or sticking it out through such things as infidelity, etc. But if something is fixable, then it should be fixed, imo. I think that if two people loved one another enough to get married, then it can be recovered if and when it deteriorates.

My first marriage was fixable, imo. She fell out of love with me, for whatever reason, but didn't make the effort to try and recover it. Instead, she quit. And that's the real problem in marriage these days - quitting. People no longer see divorce as something that's embarrassing and that they want to avoid. Rather, it's become an option that's incredibly mainstream and accepted. People don't even bat an eye these days when you tell them you're divorced. It's become the norm.

I'm starting to see more and more people (including friends and family) who just don't see the point of marriage any more. And they're actually not wrong. To many people, it's no longer the ultimate symbol of love. It's not an institution any more. Also, weddings can cost a heck of a lot of money. Something that many people just don't have enough of these days. Plus, if the relationship doesn't work out, it's just easier to not have to go through all the legal aspects of it (and potentially cheaper, too).

After my divorce, I didn't expect or plan on getting married again, primarily for all of those reasons above. But my wife had never been married, and wanted a wedding (and also we were high school sweethearts, so it seemed appropriate anyway). But the reality is that if she had been previously married as well, it's unlikely we would have gone that route, truthfully.
Good comments. I'm a lot like you. Whenever someone comments that people don't take marriage as seriously as past generations did, there are always those who jump in and tell us that past generations aren't so different and a lot of people were unhappy then, and there is truth to that too.

I certainly don't think people should stay together if they are being abused or cheated on, but I do feel that attitudes have changed so that fixable marriages aren't given the effort they once were. For some, marriage is a disposable institution anymore. people will stay with someone until they don't feel the excitement like they once did, and then they are ready to move on to the next set of bells and whistles.

The thing I notice is how quickly people move on to other relationships, which says to me they are looking for the next round of excitement as quickly as possible. They threw their old one away and it's time for a new one. Divorce is no longer embarrassing, even when it's for lame reasons. I know of a guy who is in his 50s and has been married 7 times. He doesn't care.

I'm with you, my marriage was fixable too. My x found it easier to quit than try to fix it. My kids hate it to this day, and their relationship with her is far from what it is with me. I often wonder if she feels it was worth it. The kids hate the idea of her new husband and rarely even talk to him. She and my daughter have had more arguments than I can count.
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post #78 of 91 (permalink) Old 06-05-2015, 10:07 AM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

I worked in higher education coupled with attending classes....and your point is?????

Marriage lasted 9yrs, but do you know how long we were together? Yes, pull the other one from the same place that came from



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Originally Posted by azteca1986 View Post
Send the up chimneys or down coal mines. Sure, some of them will die but it will teach the survivors to value life. Win-win.

What about if your children are in higher education? Your predictive powers need a fine tune.

If you were a moderately successful business owner you wouldn't place too much value on the negativity of someone who ran their own business into the ground. Do you know the failure rate for new businesses?

Besides, your marriage only lasted nine years, so you don't even qualify to be posting in this sub-forum.

That's another problem with the "me" generation. They think they have a right to be heard. They talk when they should listen.
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post #79 of 91 (permalink) Old 06-06-2015, 10:37 AM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

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I worked in higher education coupled with attending classes....and your point is?????
This is a meaningless statement. Our cleaning staff "work" in an ad agency.
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Marriage lasted 9yrs, but do you know how long we were together? Yes, pull the other one from the same place that came from
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post #80 of 91 (permalink) Old 06-13-2015, 10:01 AM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

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In the last several years, I have heard several preachers say they have had couples come to them asking to be married, and they already had the attitude that if it didn't work they could always get divorced. Culture sure has changed.
Could anyone argue we are now living in a progressively "Disposal society"... I've been reading some articles on this in the past couple weeks....

The cultural changes are VAST..the most disgruntled with marriage welcomes these changes, many would like to see Renewable Marriage Contracts , feeling this will solve many things..

Me personally.. I am saddened ... What I see is.. with some of the gains for GOOD.. there have been many losses along the way ....what was once important, valued...has shifted to such a degree.. it's become habitual /common place that relationships aren't meant to last...now we are told we are all non -monogamous so embrace it , enjoy it... why fight against our nature.

Along with this goes commitment, the idea of lasting love, fighting to save something when the "going gets rough"...

I haven't read this book.. but from the articles I have gathered.. this does a fine job explaining how we got HERE...

The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement ....Take parents for example... While most parents teach their kids to be nice, the overall cultural push is to teach them to succeed/ to believe in themselves, self confidence is like a GOD... instead of teaching empathy for others, practicing gratitude, teaching children friendship skills, with the emphasis on others rather than self.

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Me, me, me! America?s ?Narcissism Epidemic? - TODAY.com

People buy expensive homes with loans far beyond their ability to pay — or at least they did until the mortgage market collapsed as a result. Babies wear bibs embroidered with "Supermodel" or "Chick Magnet" and suck on "Bling" pacifiers while their parents read modernized nursery rhymes from This Little Piggy Went to Prada. People strive to create a "personal brand" (also called "self-branding"), packaging themselves like a product to be sold. Ads for financial services proclaim that retirement helps you return to childhood and pursue your dreams. High school students pummel classmates and then seek attention for their violence by posting YouTube videos of the beatings.

Although these seem like a random collection of current trends, all are rooted in a single underlying shift in the American psychology: the relentless rise of narcissism in our culture. Not only are there more narcissists than ever, but non-narcissistic people are seduced by the increasing emphasis on material wealth, physical appearance, celebrity worship, and attention seeking. Standards have shifted, sucking otherwise humble people into the vortex of granite countertops, tricked-out MySpace pages, and plastic surgery. A popular dance track repeats the words Money, Success, Fame, Glamour over and over, declaring that all other values have "either been discredited or destroyed."
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Reflecting on narcissism

Imagine a country where everyone acts like a reality show contestant — obsessed with power, status and appearance, and is comfortable manipulating others for their personal gain. “I’m here to win, not make friends,” would be the national motto.



This society would have high crime rates — white collar and violent — as people take whatever they feel entitled to, says Christopher Barry, PhD, a psychology professor at the University of Southern Mississippi and lead editor of “Narcissism and Machiavellianism in Youth” (APA, 2010). Cosmetic surgery would be routine, materialism rampant, and everyone would seek fame or notoriety, he adds. It would also be a place with high rates of anxiety and depression. That’s because narcissists — people with an inflated sense of their importance and abilities — have trouble keeping friends, even though they are good at making them, Barry’s found.

“A narcissistic society would be a deeply lonely place,” Barry says.

According to some researchers, that is precisely where America is heading.
In this article

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Narcissism is a psychocultural affliction rather than a physical disease...Understanding the narcissism epidemic is important because its long-term consequences are destructive to society. American culture's focus on self-admiration has caused a flight from reality to the land of grandiose fantasy. We have phony rich people (with interest-only mortgages and piles of debt), phony beauty (with plastic surgery and cosmetic procedures), phony athletes (with performance-enhancing drugs), phony celebrities (via reality TV and YouTube), phony genius students (with grade inflation), a phony national economy (with $11 trillion of government debt), phony feelings of being special among children (with parenting and education focused on self-esteem), and phony friends (with the social networking explosion). All this fantasy might feel good, but, unfortunately, reality always wins. The mortgage meltdown and the resulting financial crisis are just one demonstration of how inflated desires eventually crash to earth.
This is not to say that sometimes DIVORCE is the BEST OPTION ..

I found this to be a very balanced article....Disposable?relationships? | Vivid Life.. on what is worthy to leave..(physically abusive, married to a pathological liar, etc) ..then it laid out where it should be given TIME, sincere effort /communication on both ends ....

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Then I have found some other reasons that warrant a slower departure, after much consideration and attempts to reconcile (or at least part amicably)…

* Someone is unable or unwilling to communicate responsibly
* Someone is incapable or unwilling to keep their agreements
* Someone is repeatedly unwilling or incapable of seeing their part in the relationship
* Someone partakes in addictive behavior that created an unhealthy or unsafe environment (either emotionally or physically)
* Someone’s psychological needs becomes paramount and needs attention beyond the scope of either partner
* Someone’s behavior is constantly contradictory to the arrangements and agreements (implied or otherwise) set forth in the partnership...

You are absolutely convinced, based on careful observation and counsel, that regardless of what this person says or does you simply do not share the same reality, and are therefore left to accept that the chasm is too great to createreal intimacy.
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post #81 of 91 (permalink) Old 06-13-2015, 10:12 AM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

SA, I think that post is worth its own thread.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #82 of 91 (permalink) Old 06-13-2015, 12:38 PM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

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Could anyone argue we are now living in a progressively "Disposal society"... I've been reading some articles on this in the past couple weeks....

The cultural changes are VAST..the most disgruntled with marriage welcomes these changes, many would like to see Renewable Marriage Contracts , feeling this will solve many things..

Me personally.. I am saddened ... What I see is.. with some of the gains for GOOD.. there have been many losses along the way ....what was once important, valued...has shifted to such a degree.. it's become habitual /common place that relationships aren't meant to last...now we are told we are all non -monogamous so embrace it , enjoy it... why fight against our nature.

Along with this goes commitment, the idea of lasting love, fighting to save something when the "going gets rough"...

I haven't read this book.. but from the articles I have gathered.. this does a fine job explaining how we got HERE...

The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement ....Take parents for example... While most parents teach their kids to be nice, the overall cultural push is to teach them to succeed/ to believe in themselves, self confidence is like a GOD... instead of teaching empathy for others, practicing gratitude, teaching children friendship skills, with the emphasis on others rather than self.
I think that is a good way to say it. Whenever someone starts talking about "the good old days," there are always going to be those who will jump in and tell us that the good old days weren't so good, and you know what, they have good points. I'm with you, however, I think with the progress we have made and things that have changed for the better, there have also been losses along the way.

It's a shift in attitude that has changed how we do things that, in my opinion, aren't always for the better. this affects many aspects of life. The topic here just happens to be marriage. I'm sure there were marriages in the past that would have been better off if they had resulted in divorce, but with our culture then, it didn't happen. Now, however, our culture has went to the other end of the spectrum, and marriage has become no big deal, it's disposable. If I ponder a bit and decide I'm not happy because the bread isn't buttered properly, then get a divorce and move on to greener pastures, no big deal.
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post #83 of 91 (permalink) Old 06-13-2015, 02:52 PM
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Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

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Take parents for example... While most parents teach their kids to be nice, the overall cultural push is to teach them to succeed/ to believe in themselves, self confidence is like a GOD... instead of teaching empathy for others, practicing gratitude, teaching children friendship skills, with the emphasis on others rather than self.
I don't look at what is being taught to the current generation as self confidence. I think of it as self importance.

My children are very confident in themselves and as a result they are not so self focused and therefore can be empathic, appreciative and friendly to others.

Giving every kid a trophy for participation doesn't nurture self confidence it nurtures self importance. I'm just as valuable as the MVP. Although great in theory that is not the reality of the world.

Self importance doesn't foster good team dynamics or couple dynamics.

Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life. - Auerbach

Last edited by coffee4me; 06-13-2015 at 03:19 PM.
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post #84 of 91 (permalink) Old 09-22-2015, 01:18 AM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

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I don't look at what is being taught to the current generation as self confidence. I think of it as self importance.

My children are very confident in themselves and as a result they are not so self focused and therefore can be empathic, appreciative and friendly to others.

Giving every kid a trophy for participation doesn't nurture self confidence it nurtures self importance. I'm just as valuable as the MVP. Although great in theory that is not the reality of the world.

Self importance doesn't foster good team dynamics or couple dynamics.
Prizes for all is also a gross misunderstanding of the insight it is based on. Scrap prizes, compete if you will, it is up to you. But an external reward suggests the thing is not worth doing for its own sake.
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post #85 of 91 (permalink) Old 09-22-2015, 01:24 AM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

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Its very true. There's a lot of women who sell themselves and their kids out to stay in bad, unhealthy marriages because they're financially dependent on men.

I actually don't think the divorce rate is all bad. To me, it simply reflects that partners have a higher standard for marriage....they expect to actually be happy and fulfilled inside a marriage....not to just exist. There are a lot of people who've been married for a long time who are miserable and tolerate unbearable incompatibility in their partners. They tend to make their kids and everyone around them miserable too. I don't consider long marriages necessarily successful marriages.

Gone are the days when people were forced to stay in unhappy, miserable relationships because of the social stigma of divorcing. The issue is simply that marriage itself is outdated. It should be renewable rather than a life promise you make often when you're too young to reasonably guess future personal and life changes.

I think its wonderful that responsible women with self-esteem are financially independent and are able to make the choice to leave relationships that don't meet their needs.

That being said, there's nothing sweeter than seeing the two older people at the grocery store who've been lovingly married for 50 years and are still holding hands.
50% is not as bad as it sounds, it is true.

If fifty percent of people were able to commit of everyone getting married, then 2/3 of marriage would bed in divorce and a larger proportion of second marriages etc, leaving you with a divorce rate of 75%.

A 50% divorce rate of first marriages implies about 2/3 are capable of seeing it through. Expect it is actually slightly more as those who are rubbish at it may get married several times. That leaves us with approximately 25% who just should not get married and often that will be from youth and inexperience.

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post #86 of 91 (permalink) Old 09-22-2015, 03:01 PM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

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Male, married 26 years, 2 college age kids, success reason:

Because both of us took the words "till death do us part" seriously. We committed to the institution of marriage, and the two of us are just in it for the ride. Do we always love each other, yes. Do we always like each other, no.
Take each other for granted, yes. We both take for granted the knowledge that the other is committed, and whatever our arguments, there will be the two of us when it is ironed out.
I think this can go either way. Committing to the institution can have the opposite effect. Taking someone for granted is Not Good. And committing to the institution can instead contribute to a complacency that is the opposite of caring, empathetic solutions.



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So many of today's relationships die because the parties only know about "me". They have been raised in the "me" generation, they have been forever (mostly falsely) praised by their parents so as to not hurt their self esteem.
I don't agree. I think they were raised in dysfunctional families and have no learning model of how to do a relationship. What they lack, in fact, is relationship skill. You see it on here all the time.
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post #87 of 91 (permalink) Old 09-22-2015, 03:15 PM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

I definitely agree with the OP on this. People are always thinking about themselves and their needs and not those of their spouse and family. I do think this was bought on by kids not having the life skills they need to suceed during the bad times so they learn to quit instead of perservere.
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post #88 of 91 (permalink) Old 09-22-2015, 03:44 PM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

As was said at the beginning of this thread, the "Me Generation" indeed has skyrocketing divorce rates. But that's the Baby Boomers, not Gen Xers or Millennials. It smacks of "kids these days", and it's not accurate.

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post #89 of 91 (permalink) Old 09-22-2015, 05:14 PM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

When those younger generations are our age, they will have high divorce numbers, too. It takes quite a few years of marriage first before most people divorce. They don't typically divorce in their 20's.
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post #90 of 91 (permalink) Old 09-23-2015, 07:19 AM
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Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage

i have heard a lot about my generation.

everyone seems to want to judge us. we are judged as selfish, impatient, lacking morals, lacking foresight, impenitent, etc.


makes me wonder why our nation allows us to fight our wars for her.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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