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post #136 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 11:35 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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She is the one who wanted the marriage, right? She has always pretty much been the relationship leader?

And then when you had two autistic kids, in diapers until they were each 6, she just focused totally on them? She did tons of research, just poured her heart and soul into the best possible outcome for each child?

And you felt you had lost your prominence in her heart? The kids took all her emotional energy? And you felt resentful?
this is a fair summary

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post #137 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 11:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I meant to add that I don't think my wife is selfish.

She has a hard life with kids who place extreme emotional demands on her.

I also believe in her mind she thinks I'm not great and, even though I don't think this is accurate , I realize to her this probably seems real.

All of this is to say I don't really blame her for the way things are between us.

Not blaming her is not the same thing as saying I can be cool with it forever though.
Well here is just another reason I think YOU are a GREAT GUY.. very giving.. very understanding.. very sacrificial.. you don't even Blame her.. you let her off the hook.. you basically love unconditionally..

Why can't you & she get away and have some time alone a few hours a week.. do you not have anyone to watch the kids.. you need some TIME ALONE.. would she rebuff this ??
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post #138 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 11:53 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Why can't you & she get away and have some time alone a few hours a week.. do you not have anyone to watch the kids.. you need some TIME ALONE.. would she rebuff this ??
good idea!

I actually just this week said, "why don't we go to X for the weekend sometime this fall?" Shot down! Response: "I don't think that will work." Me (smiling): "OK!"

She wouldn't trust our kids to be left alone without either one of us for a weekend. I don't really think this is reasonable (my parents could do it, or her parents or her sister could), but I'm sure this is how she feels.

I'm also certain that she just wouldn't want to spend a weekend in a nice hotel on the beach with me.

I've also been recently shot down about even just going out to dinner on a Saturday with the same line ("that wouldn't work").

So that's where we're at.
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post #139 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 12:16 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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good idea!

I actually just this week said, "why don't we go to X for the weekend sometime this fall?" Shot down! Response: "I don't think that will work." Me (smiling): "OK!"

She wouldn't trust our kids to be left alone without either one of us for a weekend. I don't really think this is reasonable (my parents could do it, or her parents or her sister could), but I'm sure this is how she feels.

I'm also certain that she just wouldn't want to spend a weekend in a nice hotel on the beach with me.

I've also been recently shot down about even just going out to dinner on a Saturday with the same line ("that wouldn't work").

So that's where we're at.
How about responding with, "Please help me understand." "Ok" is actually untruthful, since it really is not okay with you.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #140 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 12:19 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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How about responding with, "Please help me understand." "Ok" is actually untruthful, since it really is not okay with you.
no, you're wrong. it actually is OK.

I would only want her to do it if she actually wants to do it.

If I have to negotiate it with her (i.e., "help me understand"), then that's not OK with me.

I'm OK with "yes" and I'm OK with "no."
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post #141 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 12:22 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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no, you're wrong. it actually is OK.

I would only want her to do it if she actually wants to do it.

If I have to negotiate it with her (i.e., "help me understand"), then that's not OK with me.

I'm OK with "yes" and I'm OK with "no."
Seeking to understand is not negotiating. It is part of building the relationship.

And I doubt it is okay. It sounds like it is part of the resentment you feel.

Anon, have you considered going to IC? Have you done that, ever?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #142 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 12:42 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Seeking to understand is not negotiating. It is part of building the relationship.

And I doubt it is okay. It sounds like it is part of the resentment you feel.

Anon, have you considered going to IC? Have you done that, ever?
I did IC for a year over this stuff. I'm fine with it. Would I prefer that we had a great marriage? Sure, that would be better for everyone (particularly our kids). But we don't.

It's a fait accompli. It is what it is.

There is no point in putting pressure on her to explain it. She is not going to give me the real answer anyway and she will just be annoyed that I'm asking. Believe me, I have been down this road many, many times before.
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post #143 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 07:44 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by Anon1111 View Post
good idea!

I actually just this week said, "why don't we go to X for the weekend sometime this fall?" Shot down! Response: "I don't think that will work." Me (smiling): "OK!"

She wouldn't trust our kids to be left alone without either one of us for a weekend. I don't really think this is reasonable (my parents could do it, or her parents or her sister could), but I'm sure this is how she feels.

I'm also certain that she just wouldn't want to spend a weekend in a nice hotel on the beach with me.

I've also been recently shot down about even just going out to dinner on a Saturday with the same line ("that wouldn't work").

So that's where we're at.
Do the kids go to school? Perhaps you could 'date' by going out for lunch or coffee while they are at school. It sounds pathetic as a date, but it is a small step.

"Life wasn't meant to be easy;
but take heart, parts of it can be delightful."
Malcolm Fraser
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post #144 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 07:57 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Perhaps if you told her you wanted intimacy with her to benefit your kids, that would get her attention. Your kids deserve to have a mom and a dad that love each other, look out for one another and spend time together. The better the marriage, the better off your kids will be. They will reap what you two sow.
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post #145 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 07:58 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Perhaps if you told her you wanted intimacy with her to benefit your kids, that would get her attention. Your kids deserve to have a mom and a dad that love each other, look out for one another and spend time together. The better the marriage, the better off your kids will be. They will reap what you two sow.
That's a good angle, karole.


One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #146 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-20-2016, 12:44 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Hi SA,

I'm a disciple of Harleys HNHN's. On the topic of IB, I used to drive my ex-wife nuts when I'd go hiking or bicycling with my fitness buddies. She used to say "Your doing that independant behavior thing, always off on your own!"

And I would retort, "Well, it wouldn't be independant behavior, if you came along with me, would it?"

As much as I believe in much of Harley's HNHN, I don't buy his last chapter solution of finding activities that both spouses find mutually satisfying and letting go of the ones that are done independently.

I found a book by Samuel Hamburg, "Will Our Love Last?" which attempts to answer the viability of a marriage for a couple from a compatibility model. Hamburg describes three dimensions of compatibility: Practical, Sexual and Wavelength.

Here are his explanations of the three dimensions are below:

The Practical Dimension: This dimension is called “practical” because it refers to how you manage all the practical decisions of daily life: when to wake up in the morning, what to have for breakfast, how to get the dishes done, and the house cleaned, how much money to spend for on a car, where to spend your vacation, and how often to visit your parents. Some of these are big things, like buying a car, for example, or dealing with your parents. Some may seem like little things-breakfast, or getting the dishes done-but life is made up of little things. Every day a couple has to make scores of decisions on little, practical issues like these; every year they make thousands. And because the partners have to come to some kind of agreement on each one of these decisions, those “little things” are not truly little. They’re all pretty big.

The Sexual Dimension: When you and your partner are similar to each other on the Sexual Dimension:
• You are as sexually attracted to your partner as your partner is to you.
• You are as interested in sex, and preoccupied with it as your partner is
• You are comfortable with sexuality, and as knowledgeable about it as your partner is.
• You want to have sex about as frequently as your partner does.
• Your favorite ways of having sex are similar to your partner’s. In particular, there are no sexual activities that you love to do but that your partner hates to do, or vice versa.

The Wavelength Dimension: The best way to understand what I (Hamburg) mean by the Wavelength Dimension is to ask yourself this question: If my partner were of the same sex as I am, would that person be one of my very best friends?
So who are our very best friends? They are the people who get it. When we talk to them, we don’t have to explain ourselves-they instantly understand. And not only do they understand what we are saying, they affirm it. That is, they approve of what we said, and they approve of us having said it. Likewise, when they talk to us, they don’t have to explain themselves to us because we get it. And we not only understand them, we affirm them. When we are with them or even just talking to them on the phone, we have a sense of emotional, intellectual, and spiritual communion; a sense of being “in tune” somehow; of being “on the same wavelength.”
To be on the same wavelength is to share the same outlook on life, to see it with the same eyes. When we are on the same wavelength with someone, we have the same attitudes about the big questions in life: About what is important and not important, about what constitutes “the good life,” and about what makes life worth living. We agree on what kind of world we see around us and how we would like that world to be different. We share the same spiritual understandings: about how-or even whether- this world and our individual life in it makes sense; about God’s part in our destiny and that of other people; about why there is suffering and evil in the world; about our ability to control our own destiny; and about what love is and the part love plays in our life.


Without writing a diatribe on the topic, I will just say that my ex-wife and I were far from compatible in so many ways. I am a fitness buff and trim. I'm retired now but rode long-distance bicycle and hiked long, steep mountain trails to stay in shape and burn stress from my work and from my marriage. My ex and I weren't on the same "wavelength" as Hamburg describes.

I'm divorced now from her and have been fortunate to have met the perfect partner for myself. When the weekend comes, there is no question as to what we will be doing. It will be something physically active together: Hiking, skiing, snowshoeing, biking. For she is like me, and needs to be physically active. She also appreciates the esthetic beauty innate in the mountains.

You will recall that another of Harley's HNHN emotional needs was defined as "Recreational Companionship". I didn't have that with my ex, but I have it in spades with my fiancee.

I've lurked on TAM for several years but never posted until I read this thread posted by you.

I see so much of the unhappiness described on TAM as being rooted in incompatibility between the partners. And while it is useful to know what the emotional needs of a man and a woman are and how to meet them, that can be impossible when partners are contemptuous of each other, because they are too different to get along.

I was a HD husband and my ex was LD. Medical/mental (depression) causes aside, I have concluded what so many of the TAM posters have; that reconciling the difference in appetite between HD and LD persons is nearly impossible.

Because if they aren't truly compatible in the sexual dimension, the LD person will frustrate the HD partner to the point of contempt. And then John Gottman's 4 horsemen of the apocalypse come riding along: Criticism, defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. And those riders are really tough to slow down and stop, once they are galloping along in a relationship.

I could go on for hours, but don't wish to make this my career in retirement.

Harley's HNHN's really explained to me what emotional needs men and women usually have. I liked his Love Bank model of Romanticl Love. I completely agree with his "Lovebusters" list of withdrawals.

But if the couple doesn't have basic compatibility across the three dimensions described by Hamburg, they will be in for a rough ride, usually terminating in divorce. Of course compatibility in those three dimensions are on continuum s, how much of each is necessary for a given couple's happiness depends upon the persons in the relationship.

Have always enjoyed your thoughtful posts.

Regards,

Yorkie Lover.

Last edited by Yorkie_Lover; 09-20-2016 at 01:03 AM. Reason: clarify a thought
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post #147 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-20-2016, 04:50 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

I like this thread. I think I am naturally quite an independent person, in that i like to pursue pursuits outside of my relationship (sports, computing, reading, male socialising).

I've tried to temper these instincts over the course of my marriage, focusing more of my attention on my wife and family. We've shared more hobbies, and are having to work a lot harder togethet with a small child to care for.

I have some older friends who live very independently from their wives. They don't sound like they are happy in their marriages especially once the kids are gone. In another universe, I can imagine ending up like them but I'm hopeful that we're on the right tracks.

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post #148 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-22-2016, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I found a book by Samuel Hamburg, "Will Our Love Last?" which attempts to answer the viability of a marriage for a couple from a compatibility model. Hamburg describes three dimensions of compatibility: Practical, Sexual and Wavelength.
1st .. thank you @Yorkie_Lover for taking the time to post ... and for mentioning this book.. I also feel compatibility is HUGE.. it's what allows for a smoother ride -for sure.....

I said it like this on my compatibility thread ..."Ultimately we are ALL selfish and simply want what we want, this is nothing new under the sun. Being aware of this fact of life & making absolute sure we are compatible before we marry can avoid many many pitfalls after the vows.... "

I looked the book up > Will Our Love Last?: A Couple's Road Map (I think I will add this to my collection).. sounds very good!

I've used these 2 links to touch on just how important Compatibility is... all younger people considering marriage should evaluate each very carefully..

Love is Not Enough ...... Love That Lasts- 11 Questions to Ask Before Marriage

Quote:
Here are his explanations of the three dimensions are below:

The Practical Dimension: This dimension is called “practical” because it refers to how you manage all the practical decisions of daily life: when to wake up in the morning, what to have for breakfast, how to get the dishes done, and the house cleaned, how much money to spend for on a car, where to spend your vacation, and how often to visit your parents. Some of these are big things, like buying a car, for example, or dealing with your parents. Some may seem like little things-breakfast, or getting the dishes done-but life is made up of little things. Every day a couple has to make scores of decisions on little, practical issues like these; every year they make thousands. And because the partners have to come to some kind of agreement on each one of these decisions, those “little things” are not truly little. They’re all pretty big.

The Sexual Dimension: When you and your partner are similar to each other on the Sexual Dimension:

• You are as sexually attracted to your partner as your partner is to you.
• You are as interested in sex, and preoccupied with it as your partner is
• You are comfortable with sexuality, and as knowledgeable about it as your partner is.
• You want to have sex about as frequently as your partner does.
• Your favorite ways of having sex are similar to your partner’s. In particular, there are no sexual activities that you love to do but that your partner hates to do, or vice versa.

The Wavelength Dimension: The best way to understand what I (Hamburg) mean by the Wavelength Dimension is to ask yourself this question: If my partner were of the same sex as I am, would that person be one of my very best friends?

So who are our very best friends? They are the people who get it. When we talk to them, we don’t have to explain ourselves-they instantly understand. And not only do they understand what we are saying, they affirm it. That is, they approve of what we said, and they approve of us having said it. Likewise, when they talk to us, they don’t have to explain themselves to us because we get it. And we not only understand them, we affirm them. When we are with them or even just talking to them on the phone, we have a sense of emotional, intellectual, and spiritual communion; a sense of being “in tune” somehow; of being “on the same wavelength.”

To be on the same wavelength is to share the same outlook on life, to see it with the same eyes. When we are on the same wavelength with someone, we have the same attitudes about the big questions in life: About what is important and not important, about what constitutes “the good life,” and about what makes life worth living. We agree on what kind of world we see around us and how we would like that world to be different. We share the same spiritual understandings: about how-or even whether- this world and our individual life in it makes sense; about God’s part in our destiny and that of other people; about why there is suffering and evil in the world; about our ability to control our own destiny; and about what love is and the part love plays in our life.
On the importance of being "best friends".... even before I met my husband.. this is how I envisioned it TO BE.... Reading on this forum though, various views.. not everyone feels this is so important.. some even feel it will hamper one's sex life... I don't feel passion & excitement need to take a dive with this.. just to keep things spicy, trying new places, positions, always something to add to the sex life with some creativity... some new novelty.....

Anticipating our Wedding day.. when looking through invitations 27 yrs ago now..really not much captured it for me.. till I came to this one..




Quote:
Without writing a diatribe on the topic, I will just say that my ex-wife and I were far from compatible in so many ways. I am a fitness buff and trim. I'm retired now but rode long-distance bicycle and hiked long, steep mountain trails to stay in shape and burn stress from my work and from my marriage. My ex and I weren't on the same "wavelength" as Hamburg describes.

I'm divorced now from her and have been fortunate to have met the perfect partner for myself. When the weekend comes, there is no question as to what we will be doing. It will be something physically active together: Hiking, skiing, snowshoeing, biking. For she is like me, and needs to be physically active. She also appreciates the esthetic beauty innate in the mountains.

You will recall that another of Harley's HNHN emotional needs was defined as "Recreational Companionship". I didn't have that with my ex, but I have it in spades with my fiancee.
Yes... very good examples.. Similar to your experience...my father & mother was a terrible match, they married too young, she says she was naive, he was HD.. she didn't want it...she wasn't happy in the country.. she wanted different things..I remember the fights.... then he married my step Mom.. WOW.. what a difference !... I look at them.. amazing compatibility...(even though I hated her at one time)...I cant deny they had a very fulfilling marriage.... their recreational activities has changed some over the years.. but now it's going camping, taking a Pontoon out on the lake.. hanging out with a group of friends they've met over the years on weekends, camping buddies...that's their scene.. they are happy, enjoying life.. ..

I have always felt "at home" with my husband, there was never a "push/ pull" sort of thing going on...we just meshed , it seemed to come so naturally...I think we're a low keyed couple.. so much about family, enjoying the "simpler things" ... taking country walks.. we love cuddling watching movies together...doing for our kids, to enhance their lives... although our personalities are opposite.. what we enjoy, hoped for, what brings us happiness.... he "gets me" like no other...it's very comforting... I count this compatibility thing the #1 reason we get along so well...with someone else.. we may be a horrendous match !! Throw that fish back !@#

I've always loved this saying...there is so much variety in our world.. I do find it fascinating... the various dynamics of couples.. this applies to us all...



Quote:
I've lurked on TAM for several years but never posted until I read this thread posted by you.
I feel honored this brought you out of the woodwork ...I hope you will post again !

Quote:
I see so much of the unhappiness described on TAM as being rooted in incompatibility between the partners. And while it is useful to know what the emotional needs of a man and a woman are and how to meet them, that can be impossible when partners are contemptuous of each other, because they are too different to get along.

I was a HD husband and my ex was LD. Medical/mental (depression) causes aside, I have concluded what so many of the TAM posters have; that reconciling the difference in appetite between HD and LD persons is nearly impossible.

Because if they aren't truly compatible in the sexual dimension, the LD person will frustrate the HD partner to the point of contempt. And then John Gottman's 4 horsemen of the apocalypse come riding along: Criticism, defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. And those riders are really tough to slow down and stop, once they are galloping along in a relationship.

I could go on for hours, but don't wish to make this my career in retirement.
Honesty speaking here.. I can only resonate with High Drive spouses.. I can listen to the other side.. but I don't have much of any sympathy.. I can't help it... not just sex but affection too.. I am someone who craves it.. but I also long to GIVE IT... the physical is something I also need.. I would grow a mountain of resentment if this was missing, or scarce to come by.. I wouldn't be able to handle it.. I'd come unglued.. It would come out my mouth.. so yeah.. I understand where you are coming from here.. My husband is high in "Physical touch"..... so he's easy to live with... it's never too much.. I love it...Like me, he feels very loved when I reach for him as well.. Here are those 4 Horsemen laid out :

Quote:
The Four Horsemen: Recognizing Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, and Stonewalling

* Criticism- the act of passing judgment as to the merits of another / faultfinding. "Criticism is “really a way of fueling the attack, so you state your complaint as an attack on the other person.” ... “It’s not constructive, it winds up leading to an escalation of the conflict" ......No Criticism Please!

* Contempt... When we communicate in this state, we are truly meaning - treating others with disrespect, mocking them with sarcasm, ridicule, name-calling, mimicking, and/or body language such as eye-rolling. The target of contempt is made to feel despised and worthless.....The Danger of Contempt

* Defensiveness- conveys the message, “The problem is not me. It’s you.” From this position you imply that, because your partner threw the first stone, they are responsible for the entire conflict. You avoid taking responsibility for your own behavior by pointing to something they did prior to their complaint about you. You do not acknowledge that which is true in what they are saying about your behavior.

Defensiveness: The Poison Pill to Relationships

* Stonewalling - also known as "the Silent treatment". .. stonewalling is the absolute refusal to consider your partner’s perspective. If you listen at all, you do it dismissively or contemptuously.This is the passive-aggressive stance many people take during a fight. It's the "Nothing's wrong, I'm fine!" said even when there is clearly something wrong.

Other common songs of the stonewaller are:“Just leave me alone…”...“Do whatever you want"....“End of conversation"..."that's enough"....

Stonewalling: How to recognize and fix ......... How to Ruin a Perfectly Good Relationship - Stonewall

Quote:
Harley's HNHN's really explained to me what emotional needs men and women usually have. I liked his Love Bank model of Romantic Love. I completely agree with his "Lovebusters" list of withdrawals.

But if the couple doesn't have basic compatibility across the three dimensions described by Hamburg, they will be in for a rough ride, usually terminating in divorce. Of course compatibility in those three dimensions are on continuum s, how much of each is necessary for a given couple's happiness depends upon the persons in the relationship.

You are definitely a "well read" husband ....Good stuff !.. I, too, really appreciate & resonate with Harley's writings ... Another link for reference > The Love Bank .........
Again
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post #149 of 149 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 08:40 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

This includes meeting up with members of the opposite sex, regardless of how well the wife knows the other woman. Meeting up at 8pm for pizza and the wife is home alone with the kids, and hasn't told her these plans. This would be outside the normal boundaries of work, of course.
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