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post #16 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 04:55 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
In the Harley construct, independent behavior isn't a reference to having independent activities that you enjoy doing alone. Rather, independent behavior is doing things without taking your spouse into consideration.



A hobby you do independently of your spouse isn't a Lovebuster sort of independent behavior as long as your spouse is on board with that activity. Dr. Harley is all about joint agreement in marriages.

Most of my hobbies are done alone. Like 90% of them.

My husband is fine with that.

So, although I am personally very independent; I don't do things without considering the effect on our marriage, or my husband's feelings.
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The 15 hour a week thing ( the amount of time you're supposed to spend together doing "us" stuff?)

We might get 6 tops. Going to the grocery store is one. We have a lot of fun doing that; I know it sounds stupid. But even then, we'll wander around separately a bit too.

We like to watch vintage TV and classic movies together. Not much talking during the show; but we usually share our opinions about it afterwards.


But I don't think we're "independent" of one another. Even though it might sound like it from my description.

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post #17 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 05:46 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
Most of my hobbies are done alone. Like 90% of them.

My husband is fine with that.

So, although I am personally very independent; I don't do things without considering the effect on our marriage, or my husband's feelings.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The 15 hour a week thing ( the amount of time you're supposed to spend together doing "us" stuff?)

We might get 6 tops. Going to the grocery store is one. We have a lot of fun doing that; I know it sounds stupid. But even then, we'll wander around separately a bit too.

We like to watch vintage TV and classic movies together. Not much talking during the show; but we usually share our opinions about it afterwards.


But I don't think we're "independent" of one another. Even though it might sound like it from my description.
Similar here, most of my hobbies are done separate from my W, and vice versa. We are both fine with that, as many times our hobbies are done during times where we wouldn't be spending time with each other anyhow (i.e. me going to the gym at 5am each day before work while everyone is still asleep, and my W doing her own things while I am at work).

The 15hrs a week thing boggles my mind lol. Most weeks I would say getting 4hrs time together (no kids) is probably considered a good week. I see no reason to have some predetermined hours a week you are "supposed" to spend together, all that does it make it a chore, not really the intended purpose. Really, I focus on making the most out of the time when you do get it with your SO.
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post #18 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 06:43 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I am starting this thread out with a ...these are my personal feelings... not everyone is wired like me or wants the same things in Life & Matrimony.. As with any thread.. take my views with a grain of salt.. Feel free to expand upon this, open this discussion with your variation of thoughts & feelings.. what works for You & yours...

Ever since joining this forum, it's something I've noticed said time & time again, always defended...yet it's rubbed me the wrong way.. "the spirit of it" mostly...... I would CRINGE living with it.. and frankly.. if my husband had it or I...it would cause our romance to slowly wither & DIE..

Upon reading another of Harley's books (Author of His Needs, Her Needs) .... I came upon his explaining IT... he has it listed as one of the "Love Busters" (opposite of our emotional needs, this is what will put a fork through us, losing that loving feeling) ...among those are:

1. Selfish Demands
2. Disrespectful Judgments
3. Angry Outbursts
4. Dishonesty
5. Annoying Habits.... and

6. "Independent Behavior"...

How often do we hear others argue that true happiness comes from within, that each person should be responsible for his or her own happiness...seems a shift from the 60's "ME ME ...it's all about me" generation... we no longer believe we can make or should even try to make another person happy, even the one we took vows to Love, Honor & Cherish... that just doesn't work for me..

Deep down we all know we have an affect on other people...what we do, our words, our attitude, our actions speak, giving of our time, our willingness to "be there" when it may not have been convenient even can mean a great deal to someone.. those "little things".....we've all brightened another's day ...

And we've also hurt someone.... Basically... we can also make others "miserable" with our selfishness , and thoughtlessness if we're not careful..

Questions to ask: Are you making some of your decisions as if your spouse doesn't exist...this being habitual, are they Ok with it? ...Do you ask / seek how the other feels about your plans, or just forge ahead & do what pleases you?



This Love Buster represents any activity that fails to take your spouse's feelings & interests into account..... With a lack of empathy here, it's easy to fall into "independent behavior" as we're conveniently pushing aside the other's feelings, making light of them...if they are on the passive side, they may push down their protests, but feel the pain none the less, or in due time.. a divide takes place, snapping begins....

Seems some have been conditioned to react .."You're not my Mother (or father), "Stop trying to control me!" ... "Why should I have to have Your permission for something I want to do?"... "It's my body, I'll do what I want with it"...

Every situation is different, of course.. there ARE selfish controlling spouses... don't misunderstand..
BUT what if... it really has nothing ever to do with CONTROL....but instead about "THOUGHTFULNESS"... You're being controlled when someone forces you to do something that's GOOD for HIM or her, but BAD for you.. for their selfish gain, generally.

But "Thoughfulness" is entirely different.. You're being thoughtful when you decide not to do something that's good for you but hurtful /inconsiderate to your spouse (find that middle ground as best you can)..... this gets to the heart of what Independent Behavior really is...Thoughtlessness..It's running roughshod over the feelings of your spouse so you can be a little happier, getting your cake, but they are missing theirs.

*** A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior....which benefits both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of you suffers... making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind.

...



Nice post as always, SA.

I can't speak for the general TAM populace, but when I say the words "his/her happiness is not your responsibility", it is normally in response to a situation where the person is codependent.

There is an incredibly fine line between caring about your spouse's happiness and the "must fix it", nice guy (or girl) trap.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #19 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 06:47 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Wow can I relate to this. Thank you. It's a soul killer even in friendship.


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post #20 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 07:50 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
Nice post as always, SA.

I can't speak for the general TAM populace, but when I say the words "his/her happiness is not your responsibility", it is normally in response to a situation where the person is codependent.

There is an incredibly fine line between caring about your spouse's happiness and the "must fix it", nice guy (or girl) trap.
I think this is an important point. You have to look at the specifics of the marriage. Some people do need to start caring and taking responsibility for their spouse's happiness. Some "must fix it" could go a long way in certain relationships.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #21 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 09:23 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
It varies between couples how much time / togetherness they desire from each other... I'm pretty sure myself & husband are higher on the bar in comparison to the average (beings we're both "Time" & "Touchers" , love language wise)... it hasn't been a tug of war with either of us feeling he's too busy.. or I'm too busy, showing too much independence from each other..

In "His Needs / Her Needs", this particular book about parenting - still the Parents NEED their time alone, this segment ... Click HERE speaks how a couple need a minimum of 15 hours of undivided attention a week ...for intimate affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation & recreational companionship... that could be a little over 2 hours a day if you spread it over a week's time..

We're probably not the norm...I'd rather go shopping with him over any girlfriend.. (not that I like to shop, actually I HATE it -give me Amazon & Ebay please!)....we seem to enjoy most everything together.. except he's went to Gun shows with friends, and I love a good rock concert that he'd rather not get his ear drums blown out seeing...

I'll go to his coin shows with him, he appreciates that... In our earlier years.. I'd even go to the Junk Yard with him... I wanted to help!
I think the value of 15hrs/wk was given as a goal for couples to use to try to rebuild their relationships. I think in healthy marriages this number varies significantly. It does vary from couple to couple and spouse to spouse. For us it varies over time as well.

There are times when we may spend 15-30minutes per day of quality time for days in a row. Rarely are we able to put in two hours but yet it's enough time to keep it going. I think the emphasis should be more on the quality of time spent rather than the amount. I get that Harley is trying to convince people that don't put time into their spouses to do so and giving them a goal.

For us our quality time varies like a tide chart and our independent behavior increases at low tide. At high tides we sync back our lives and emotions. The freshness and rejuvenation from independent activities is essential to a growing couple in my mind.

A few weeks ago Mrs. meson and myself went backpacking for a week where we were together 24/7 and had a blast going day to day largely unplanned until the day and sometimes changing plans at a whimsy. We began doing without talking. We saw what needed to be done and did it. Since we were alone for 98% of the time we each re-clicked on body language and reading each other.

One day we ran across a field of especially ripe blueberries and huckleberries and while we were picking some to eat I saw a great campsite with an existing fire ring and some very dry dead wood in a valley beyond the field. Normally I'm against camp fires and rarely do them because they are environmentally damaging but they are superfun to Mrs. meson. So I handed her my small nalgene and said fill this up for desert tonight and I will make a campfire. This was a great way to finish the week. That last night really filled her need.

Last weekend we were busy and the time we were spending together was a low tide section. However because I listen and monitor Mrs. mesons body language I knew she needed steamed crabs. So I searched and found a crab house close to our house that we didn't know about so I was going to surprise her by just taking her there when she got back from some independent activities. Again the crabs and beer hit her need spot on.

My point with these rambling examples is that time together can and should be targeted to maximize fulfillment of needs. They are innocuous mini-dates that continue our courtship and feed our souls. Upping the quality of the time spent means that a couple can be more and do more independantly which I think is healthy for a marriage.

Quite frankly the philosophy that we are one-flesh is a prescription for marital discontent. SA Husband doesn't spend time here like you do and that's fine because you do share your experience here with him. I wish Harley had chosen another word for this like "unilateral without regard forthe spouse" because for me and my marriage independence is what pulled my marriage back together and is essential. Becoming one flesh is what built a coffin for which we were nailing the lid on when I woke up and realized that we weren't who we married any more.

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post #22 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 10:06 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
Most of my hobbies are done alone. Like 90% of them.

My husband is fine with that.

So, although I am personally very independent; I don't do things without considering the effect on our marriage, or my husband's feelings.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The 15 hour a week thing ( the amount of time you're supposed to spend together doing "us" stuff?)

We might get 6 tops. Going to the grocery store is one. We have a lot of fun doing that; I know it sounds stupid. But even then, we'll wander around separately a bit too.

We like to watch vintage TV and classic movies together. Not much talking during the show; but we usually share our opinions about it afterwards.


But I don't think we're "independent" of one another. Even though it might sound like it from my description.
My wife and I have an agreement from what we have experienced in our personalities in our relationship... we understand that Monday through Thursday are often going to be consumed by tasks and work where interaction is going to be minimal, so up to Wednesday is a given that time together is simply going to be a tad fleeting and an interaction with another simply relaxed with dinner and sharing a glass of wine, but on Thursday it is going to be critical that we ramp up the time together or by Saturday there is a noticed difference to how we interact, a pronounced shift away from togetherness that will keep us looking away instead of inward toward another, and it is these times we notice we tend to get into more disagreements.

Taking the time from Thursday on and spending the weekends focused on us, even if with mutual chores, simply works the best... any more than three days distracted is a recipe for arguments to sprout.
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post #23 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I think the value of 15hrs/wk was given as a goal for couples to use to try to rebuild their relationships. I think in healthy marriages this number varies significantly. It does vary from couple to couple and spouse to spouse. For us it varies over time as well.

There are times when we may spend 15-30minutes per day of quality time for days in a row. Rarely are we able to put in two hours but yet it's enough time to keep it going. I think the emphasis should be more on the quality of time spent rather than the amount. I get that Harley is trying to convince people that don't put time into their spouses to do so and giving them a goal.
I can tell you .. why I love and resonate so much with Harley's stuff is... I THINK so much like the man ...even down to his "Radical honesty" stuff.. that's our marriage!!

We are a prime example of living what this man has taught.... I never even read any of his stuff UNTIL after I joined this forum.. the book I knew about & had read was the Love languages book...not Harley's ..But yeah.. I resonated with everything he said.. and I DO feel when these 10 emotional needs are lacking.. one is susceptible to an affair, as his book is titled.

I feel somehow naturally we were living most of them....of course we did miss it on 1 AREA ... that we've made up for...

But yeah...I DO crave time with my husband.... I would be annoyed.... Greatly annoyed with a man who didn't want to spend that much time with me.. and I surely wouldn't be brow beating him to do it.... I've said this a number of times on TAM.. I can not stand the idea of being a burden to ANYONE...I have a stick up my a$$ about this... I need a man's to be into it with me or it all goes to hell... I would just leave them..

So yeah...if a man wasn't wired like me.. we'd never get off the ground... but this explains why I am attracted to men who are primary family oriented, romantic , the more sensitive types...

There is clearly a reason I put a disclaimer at the beginning of this...as I know it's not true for everyone.. Look at @EllisRedding 's example.. 4 hours a week!! and it's OK with both of them!!! Admittedly, I'd never be able to stand that.. I'd deem my husband a workaholic if that was my life..

One thing I don't have is a large close knit family (maybe Ellis's wife does -this being a part of her fulfillment to make up for the hrs she doesn't have with him).... I've tried to create this - having 6 kids... I WANTED the added chaos & work... so thankful for them all...they have complete our lives....

But I have no siblings.. not close to my mother.. not close to my father.. (I probably see them less than 5 times a year).. then I didn't have a career either.. like many women today which can be demanding & she may be worn out at the end of the day too..just not thinking about time with the hubby...

There is time with girlfriends on occasion...but husband's always been my BEST friend.. the one I'd choose above all...whatever we do..

I surely get that there are TIMES we need to take a step back..other things take priority... they closed the shop where Husband works...laid everyone off but 3 guys.. he was one of those.. but he had to get a CDL to keep his job.. I wanted him to STUDY STUDY STUDY....Ignore me !@#... until he got that in his hands (this was urgent)..

I went out of my way to HELP him with this.. joining a "Truckers forum" this past month.... posting pictures I took of the school bus engine, getting a little more clarification for his "Pre-trip inspection"....(His training was from a Bus garage, they took him on -so thankful !... the lady training him didn't know all that - she got her CDL like 30 yrs ago- when Pre-trip's was maybe 3 minutes.. NOT TODAY! .. his Pre-trip took a good hour days ago, when he took the test.. he passed !@#.. we're so excited... Training on this school bus basically saved his job !



THIS took priority over EVERYTHING during this time.. Just as when we were trying to sell our house years ago....WORK WORK WORK...we had a goal, we wanted out of there!.. but still we did it all together, side by side, tool belt around my waist...

I drilled him for his Testing .. he passed everything the 1st time.. it's good... I even had a poster on the Truckers forum telling me - He should be there asking questions NOT ME -like why isn't he doing the work.. and I defended our "team work" spirit on this..

He purposely takes 2 week days off so we'd have more time together while the kids are in school (Playtime!) & I schedule my jobs, even choose jobs around his work schedule so we CAN maximize our time together..

I don't see either one of us as "Needy" in a negative way (I could do a post on what that looks like when it drags the other down & it's unhealthy)...

I can handle A LOT on my own, I "manage" our family, every detail financially, scheduling whatever....I never need his help.... it's just what we ENJOY..... we're only here so long, only so many days on this earth ...we should arrange it and manage it to where we get the most Enjoyment out of it... this saying was out of one of my books years ago...



I'd say the Larger issue is...when One marries another who has a very different idea of spending time , they should never assume it will change after the vows.. the way we were before we married has remained steadfast the last 36 yrs...

Quote:
For us our quality time varies like a tide chart and our independent behavior increases at low tide. At high tides we sync back our lives and emotions. The freshness and rejuvenation from independent activities is essential to a growing couple in my mind.
I could say here.. if this is true.. me & my husband SUCK ...we're not living up to it.. we must not be growing = stagnation... we ought to be suffering in some way.. but I don't feel this -at all.

He's never had or ever cared about outside activities , he lives for his family (these have been his words).... oh he may enjoy a few things like coin collecting, metal detecting, he took on a truck project putting it together yrs ago (more for saving $$ over enjoyment though) he also has a fascination with Lock picking.. I sometimes think he should have been a Locksmith - probably not much money in that....but ultimately what needs done around here, working on vehicles, upkeep of house / property....attending our children's activities, doing family things...this is fulfilling enough..

Maybe WE are not normal in comparison to the majority here ??

Quote:
Quite frankly the philosophy that we are one-flesh is a prescription for marital discontent. SA Husband doesn't spend time here like you do and that's fine because you do share your experience here with him. I wish Harley had chosen another word for this like "unilateral without regard forthe spouse" because for me and my marriage independence is what pulled my marriage back together and is essential. Becoming one flesh is what built a coffin for which we were nailing the lid on when I woke up and realized that we weren't who we married any more.
It sounds you both changed though, maybe in significant ways ... I can't say we've felt this.. we haven't changed much really.. I can think of a couple on my end...loosing my religion & my heightened sexual NEED...but really...I look back and more so see us growing together through whatever came....like those roots that Love quote spoke of..

But true...I missed some things years ago...I again owe my husband the world for his patience & understanding of me.. I see this completely different over you -probably because our experience has been so different..

This just give credence to the wide range of differences among us though...what we want, crave, what works for us...then factoring in some changes over the years..

So you & she were very different couple when you dated then, before kids ??

Last edited by SimplyAmorous; 08-13-2016 at 03:54 PM.
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post #24 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 01:06 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Congratulations, Mr. SA!
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One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #25 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Congratulations, Mr. SA!
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He had some tough moments @jld...see they just changed the Pre-trip Inspection to be more difficult.. like 2 months ago or something, it's on the DMV site.... the bus company even told him he's their "Guinea Pig" to see what's new & how detailed a new driver has to be -to pass...

At one point he opened the emergency exit on the ceiling, the buzzer goes off... when shutting it.. it got STUCK.. he couldn't get it off.....the guy did not seem happy...very stressful moment till he got it -thinking he's screwed ...

This wasn't the best of beginnings either...I guess the Bus company put a creeper & a hammer in the bus to use as this is how they train.... to use a hammer on the tires.. but husband KNEW from all the "You tube videos" this was a NO NO - to NOT do this (conflict of teaching!) ...but he did ask about the creeper & the guy says.. "This isn't looking good for you"...the man just didn't seem in a good mood...

This was before he even started his "Pre -trip Inspection" which was like an hour of his pointing out every little thing that it's not bent, cracked, broken, leaking, free of dirt, whatever and secured to the frame...a Tremendous amount of repeating yourself to get through this.. he also shook every seat on the bus -having to say "not loose , broken & securely attached to the floor, no damage from kids"

He forgot to say the FRAME itself was not bent or cracked and free of illegal welds.. one of the points he missed- as he did ask afterwards...

We prayed before he left.. But yeah.. he passed.. a sigh of relief.. if not he could have taken it again.. but we'd have to pay for Private testing... could be as high as $300 a pop as he needed to get this done.. and the DMV is heavily booked & school is starting.. they needed their buses !

He did Great with the driving portion & Air brakes.. they are expecting A LOT more for the Pre-Trip inspection now though..

So yeah.. we're celebrating !!

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post #26 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 08:15 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Hey SA,

I can tell this is a very cerebral discussion here (didn't read all the replies) so I am going to change up the cerebralness a bit, with your permission as the thread starter, and instead of journaling my thoughts, ask a pointed question

I think you know how much I admire your marriage and have stated that here off and on over the years (mostly off).

So, with that disclaimer, so I don't think other posters think I am openly insulting you. . .

Do you think you would be considered a "Clinger" in another relationship?

By the way, I agree that Interdependence is the goal. One of my core values I had when I had a life coach we uncovered was teamwork, a partial reason for a career change. Teamwork is another way of saying interdependence IMHO.

Good topic. . .I score "off the charts" independent on personality tests and that may be indicative of selfishness. I have given a lot of my life to helping others, many times for little to no money but that does not mean I don't have a vein of selfishness or self-centeredness running through me and you're right to call it out.

I am only calling you out a bit with the pointed question. I really don't know you from Sally but I know you well enough when I ask a good self-reflective question, oh boy do you get thinking.

And maybe I seem a bit confused. . .but maybe, I got you pegged! Ha! Don't know what to do about those tossed salad and scrambled eggs. . .they're posting again. Scannerguard has left the building.

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post #27 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-14-2016, 02:09 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I have given a lot of my life to helping others, many times for little to no money but that does not mean I don't have a vein of selfishness or self-centeredness running through me

Every human being operates out of selfishness and self-centeredness. Every last one.

But I use those terms in a neutral sense; as a description. Not a condemnation.

Really think about it. Everything we do is based on getting the best outcome for ourselves.

And when we do good deeds; it's because we feel a need to do the right thing---so that we can feel better about ourselves or the state of the world.
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post #28 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-14-2016, 11:04 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I can tell you .. why I love and resonate so much with Harley's stuff is... I THINK so much like the man ...even down to his "Radical honesty" stuff.. that's our marriage!!

We are a prime example of living what this man has taught.... I never even read any of his stuff UNTIL after I joined this forum.. the book I knew about & had read was the Love languages book...not Harley's ..But yeah.. I resonated with everything he said.. and I DO feel when these 10 emotional needs are lacking.. one is susceptible to an affair, as his book is titled.
I agree with the majority of his ideas as well. However I wish he had chosen some other word than independant along with the magnitude of the time required to feed a marriage is couple dependent not a universal.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
I feel somehow naturally we were living most of them....of course we did miss it on 1 AREA ... that we've made up for...

But yeah...I DO crave time with my husband.... I would be annoyed.... Greatly annoyed with a man who didn't want to spend that much time with me.. and I surely wouldn't be brow beating him to do it.... I've said this a number of times on TAM.. I can not stand the idea of being a burden to ANYONE...I have a stick up my a$$ about this... I need a man's to be into it with me or it all goes to hell... I would just leave them..
I think craving your spouse is a property of a good marriage. Love is based upon a neural physical addiction so the craving is natural. That's what missing our spouse is about when the travel and away for a time. I often get this at the end of a regular day as well. The point is the amount of time required differs for many. From a prescription point of view 15hrs/wk covers most.


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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
So yeah...if a man wasn't wired like me.. we'd never get off the ground... but this explains why I am attracted to men who are primary family oriented, romantic , the more sensitive types...

There is clearly a reason I put a disclaimer at the beginning of this...as I know it's not true for everyone.. Look at @EllisRedding 's example.. 4 hours a week!! and it's OK with both of them!!! Admittedly, I'd never be able to stand that.. I'd deem my husband a workaholic if that was my life..
This is an important point. The ideal is that our need for spousal time should be matched. Otherwise one spouses needs could be met while another is not. I think that going through a potential mates needs and making a determination of whether your needs could be met in addition to your ability to meet your prospects needs would be a good exercise to help ensure compatibility for marriage.


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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
One thing I don't have is a large close knit family (maybe Ellis's wife does -this being a part of her fulfillment to make up for the hrs she doesn't have with him).... I've tried to create this - having 6 kids... I WANTED the added chaos & work... so thankful for them all...they have complete our lives....

But I have no siblings.. not close to my mother.. not close to my father.. (I probably see them less than 5 times a year).. then I didn't have a career either.. like many women today which can be demanding & she may be worn out at the end of the day too..just not thinking about time with the hubby...

There is time with girlfriends on occasion...but husband's always been my BEST friend.. the one I'd choose above all...whatever we do..

I surely get that there are TIMES we need to take a step back..other things take priority... they closed the shop where Husband works...laid everyone off but 3 guys.. he was one of those.. but he had to get a CDL to keep his job.. I wanted him to STUDY STUDY STUDY....Ignore me !@#... until he got that in his hands (this was urgent)..

I went out of my way to HELP him with this.. joining a "Truckers forum" this past month.... posting pictures I took of the school bus engine, getting a little more clarification for his "Pre-trip inspection"....(His training was from a Bus garage, they took him on -so thankful !... the lady training him didn't know all that - she got her CDL like 30 yrs ago- when Pre-trip's was maybe 3 minutes.. NOT TODAY! .. his Pre-trip took a good hour days ago, when he took the test.. he passed !@#.. we're so excited... Training on this school bus basically saved his job !



THIS took priority over EVERYTHING during this time.. Just as when we were trying to sell our house years ago....WORK WORK WORK...we had a goal, we wanted out of there!.. but still we did it all together, side by side, tool belt around my waist...

I drilled him for his Testing .. he passed everything the 1st time.. it's good... I even had a poster on the Truckers forum telling me - He should be there asking questions NOT ME -like why isn't he doing the work.. and I defended our "team work" spirit on this..

He purposely takes 2 week days off so we'd have more time together while the kids are in school (Playtime!) & I schedule my jobs, even choose jobs around his work schedule so we CAN maximize our time together..
This kind work being together while helping the other to achieve goals is cool! It brings the both of you together while allowing independant achievement.

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
I'd say the Larger issue is...when One marries another who has a very different idea of spending time , they should never assume it will change after the vows.. the way we were before we married has remained steadfast the last 36 yrs...
Exactly! This circles back to my point earlier. If there is so,etching that needs changing it either needs to be changed or satisfactorily addressed. Otherwise it's time to move on and keep looking.


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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
I could say here.. if this is true.. me & my husband SUCK ...we're not living up to it.. we must not be growing = stagnation... we ought to be suffering in some way.. but I don't feel this -at all.

He's never had or ever cared about outside activities , he lives for his family (these have been his words).... oh he may enjoy a few things like coin collecting, metal detecting, he took on a truck project putting it together yrs ago (more for saving $$ over enjoyment though) he also has a fascination with Lock picking.. I sometimes think he should have been a Locksmith - probably not much money in that....but ultimately what needs done around here, working on vehicles, upkeep of house / property....attending our children's activities, doing family things...this is fulfilling enough..

Maybe WE are not normal in comparison to the majority here ??
Nothing wrong here! You enjoy and need each others time almost exclusively. You both are growing. The house project, the certification test and kids. I think this is normal.

Our needs are just more of a non-intersecting type which we accommodate in a similar but slightly different way. There is more than one combination type to completely satisfying needs of both spouses.



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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
It sounds you both changed though, maybe in significant ways ... I can't say we've felt this.. we haven't changed much really.. I can think of a couple on my end...loosing my religion & my heightened sexual NEED...but really...I look back and more so see us growing together through whatever came....like those roots that Love quote spoke of..

But true...I missed some things years ago...I again owe my husband the world for his patience & understanding of me.. I see this completely different over you -probably because our experience has been so different..

This just give credence to the wide range of differences among us though...what we want, crave, what works for us...then factoring in some changes over the years..

So you & she were very different couple when you dated then, before kids ??
I encouraged a misunderstanding here. We were who we were at the start of the marriage and that's who we were for the years we knew each other before we dated. With the complication of kids, work and aging parents we gave up essential part of ourselves to the the family. It was done out of time management necessity but it slowly changed us and me in particular to be unhappy moving towards bitter. Resentments took root. It wasn't until I withdrew and decided to work on myself that I noticed I had really given up being what I was and this was a person my wife didn't like.

My seeking out my old interests improved me and reset me back to the man my wife fell in love with. So that's where I'm coming from about this. It's a bit of a nitpick but it made a difference in my marriage.

I don't want to not live because of my fear of what could happen. - Laird Hamilton
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post #29 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-14-2016, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by Scannerguard View Post
Hey SA,

I can tell this is a very cerebral discussion here (didn't read all the replies) so I am going to change up the cerebralness a bit, with your permission as the thread starter, and instead of journaling my thoughts, ask a pointed question

I think you know how much I admire your marriage and have stated that here off and on over the years (mostly off).

So, with that disclaimer, so I don't think other posters think I am openly insulting you. . .

Do you think you would be considered a "Clinger" in another relationship?
I don't mind at all you asking this question...Here is the thing with me.. I will outright admit.. I love a touchy feely man who loves to spend time with me.. This is all my husband... I know what works for me, I know what wouldn't... This thread isn't about me though... we are all variations..

You probably missed this, it's something I said in that LONG post I did yesterday, touching on what you are asking....

Quote:
"... I would be annoyed.... Greatly annoyed with a man who didn't want to spend that much time with me.. and I surely wouldn't be brow beating him to do it.... I've said this a number of times on TAM.. I can not stand the idea of being a burden to ANYONE...I have a stick up my a$$ about this... I need a man's to be into it with me or it all goes to hell... I would just leave them."
So would I be a Clinger you ask (I know you mean this in the negative sense)...If I felt even a hint that a man didn't appreciate me for who I was, what I wanted to bring.. I'd recoil from him.. so No.. I wouldn't be an annoying clinger to anyone .... I'd find that ugly, burdensome, & hurtful if another felt this way about me... there are plenty of fish in the sea ... I'd throw those one's back... they are better suited for a independent feminist or something...but it isn't me!...

Years ago now.. me & him had a moment....went something like this....that old song "Even Though We Ain't Got Money, I'm so in love with you Honey" came on the radio... I grabbed him & we danced..... a few minutes earlier I was talking about how so many on TAM seem to get off on brow beating Nice Guys....saying they are all clingy, weak, and women loose attraction to them... my Husband listens and says back....."what's wrong with clingy?"...

When we were dancing.... he looks down at me & says "If you wasn't clingy, you wouldn't be mushy"... basically he loves me the way I am....I'm clingy with him!.... but he loves it... and I love it .... I buried my face in his chest and teared up, just so thankful for what we have with each other... There is some vulnerability there for ya..

One of my husband's lines is "Why get married if you don't want to be with the other person"... that's how he thinks.. I mean it helps we get along so well...he's the one & only person I could spend 24/7 with and them NOT get on my nerves... this doesn't mean we don't fight on occasion - we do!

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By the way, I agree that Interdependence is the goal. One of my core values I had when I had a life coach we uncovered was teamwork, a partial reason for a career change. Teamwork is another way of saying interdependence IMHO.
Yes it is Scanner !! We are both BIG on having a "team spirit" ... Been reading more of Harley's stuff... and it speaks of this "Policy of Joint agreement" thing... seems so formal wording it like this.... that's always been our "natural way".. we never had to read anything...

I WANT to know how he feels, I always ask...heck he clues me in too..I can't recall 1 tiff in all our years where one went ahead of the other , some surprise we didn't talk about...it just doesn't happen... we are informed.. we talk it all out & find what works for us both.... it almost seems this is not common with many couples ??

Quote:
Good topic. . .I score "off the charts" independent on personality tests and that may be indicative of selfishness. I have given a lot of my life to helping others, many times for little to no money but that does not mean I don't have a vein of selfishness or self-centeredness running through me and you're right to call it out.
I am admittedly more selfish, probably a lot - and less patient too, over my husband.. my thoughts on this is in the 1st line of my compatibility thread.. I said >> "Ultimately we are ALL selfish and simply want what we want, this is nothing new under the sun. Being aware of this fact of life & making absolute sure we are compatible before we marry can avoid many many pitfalls after the vows" ... I stand by that..

I am very independent minded.. I can lead .. I can take command.. I have strong opinions.. I can be persuasive.. I can even be demanding if I don't watch myself ... I feel the romantic side of me is where I long to share everything..

For me ...Life is just better being shared with someone you love (sex is great too - I'd miss that something awful! )... this has always been my ideal.. always loved the scriptures in Ecclesiastes on this.. it is about that "teamwork"..


Last edited by SimplyAmorous; 08-14-2016 at 04:28 PM.
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post #30 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-14-2016, 01:44 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Beautiful and heartfelt, SA.
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One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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