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post #61 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by Ikaika View Post
The me me me part: it is true we tend in society for the selfish, "what am I going to get out of this" rather than what can I give to this relationship. However as a personal example, I,stopped drinking, started exercising and generally taking care of myself because I was tired of how I felt. Though it sounds selfish, I knew it would be a positive impact on my marriage as well. But, to stick to it, I needed to change my lifestyle for me to make it stick.

So, sometimes we need to change for ourselves, especially when it results in a positive for those around us. Now, of course my addictive personality means pushing my 55 year old body to extremes. My wife does think I'm crazy working out with 20 and 30 year old who are clearly stronger and in better shape. I liked being pushed to the brink. However, my stamina in the bedroom has greatly increased and at the point she never complains
This is a great personal example...Hopefully anytime we improve ourselves is going to be an improvement in our marriage..
Those are some great PERKS for your wife there @Ikaika !

So long as we don't grow away from our supporting spouses as we improve ourselves..

There was a guy I graduated with.. I remember him struggling with his weight all through high school... he married an over weight woman... then she had that Lipo surgery ..... she started getting attention from men like for the 1st time in her life... she was eating this up.. she started hanging with a younger crowd, partying, she suddenly wanted to re-live the youth she never had.. and left her husband...at this point he was in good shape too, thinnest he's ever been..

We only heard his side of the story mind you..but there was a situation where the ego of one got a little too inflated...felt they could do better...and it brought it all down.

I sense you have a great deal of gratitude towards your wife for standing beside you all those years, come hell or high water....this tying you to her. Bless you both..

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post #62 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 04:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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My favorite verse about marriage is:

1 Corinthians 7:27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

Ok Steve .... I read this ...but WHY ? Are you free or bound?
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post #63 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 04:25 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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This is a great personal example...Hopefully anytime we improve ourselves is going to be an improvement in our marriage..
Those are some great PERKS for your wife there @Ikaika !

So long as we don't grow away from our supporting spouses as we improve ourselves..

There was a guy I graduated with.. I remember him struggling with his weight all through high school... he married an over weight woman... then she had that Lipo surgery ..... she started getting attention from men like for the 1st time in her life... she was eating this up.. she started hanging with a younger crowd, partying, she suddenly wanted to re-live the youth she never had.. and left her husband...at this point he was in good shape too, thinnest he's ever been..

We only heard his side of the story mind you..but there was a situation where the ego of one got a little too inflated...felt they could do better...and it brought it all down.

I sense you have a great deal of gratitude towards your wife for standing beside you all those years, come hell or high water....this tying you to her. Bless you both..


She did stand by me and had ever reason to kick my ass to the curb, years ago. She did not and now we are both in a better place. Of course my loss in weight and not drinking coincides with an aging body, so I'm not looking at greener pastures, just thankful I can still workout. I'm know as the crazy old man at the gym

My wife has always taken care of herself and she is my "hottie".


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post #64 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 04:30 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

SA:

I only tease you because I know you take it good spirit. You have a sense of humor, pride and comfort with yourself I think we all aspire to.

Yeah, I can respect sacrificing the "roaming" for being a family man like your husband. That's something I will chew on with respects to myself - how much does "success" drive my decisions. And selfishness.

Good topic. I've contributed my piece on "clinging" and it's worn it's wear. It just popped into my head as I read your posts.

And maybe I seem a bit confused. . .but maybe, I got you pegged! Ha! Don't know what to do about those tossed salad and scrambled eggs. . .they're posting again. Scannerguard has left the building.
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post #65 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
Nice post as always, SA.

I can't speak for the general TAM populace, but when I say the words "his/her happiness is not your responsibility", it is normally in response to a situation where the person is codependent.

There is an incredibly fine line between caring about your spouse's happiness and the "must fix it", nice guy (or girl) trap
.
I need to fess up to something..before coming to TAM.. I've heard the word Co-dependent (I recall a woman I knew reading a book on this) but I really had no idea what it even meant.. I think it's still a little fuzzy to me -to be honest..

Isn't it about someone who can't leave or feels guilty over leaving another who basically is screwed up, takes them for granted, is an awful spouse, dysfunctional ...here they suck up all the goodness....while the co-dependent is suffering emotionally but still clings to hope or feeling they are doing the "right thing" by staying, showing faithfulness and charity...

At some point.. it becomes "Enabling"...which can do more harm over good, certainly not helping a couple find their way back to intimacy...

I should just look it up.. but that's my off the top of my head definition of what "co-dependency" is...that's not healthy.....

I've always felt one needs a healthy "give & take" for a mutual happiness... it should never be one sided.. Sacrificial loving when it's only to pamper one would get old real fast..
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post #66 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 04:54 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

SA,
You aren't clingy - you're loving. The difference is.....

Being 'clingy' is defined as: Expressing more love towards and/or more needs towards your partner - than they want you to.

It's either smothering or being needy or worse - BOTH of those things.

When two people love each other and love doing things together - there's a word for that - and it isn't clingy. The word is blissful.






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I need to fess up to something..before coming to TAM.. I've heard the word Co-dependent (I recall a woman I knew reading a book on this) but I really had no idea what it even meant.. I think it's still a little fuzzy to me -to be honest..

Isn't it about someone who can't leave or feels guilty over leaving another who basically is screwed up, takes them for granted, is an awful spouse, dysfunctional ...here they suck up all the goodness....while the co-dependent is suffering emotionally but still clings to hope or feeling they are doing the "right thing" by staying, showing faithfulness and charity...

At some point.. it becomes "Enabling"...which can do more harm over good, certainly not helping a couple find their way back to intimacy...

I should just look it up.. but that's my off the top of my head definition of what "co-dependency" is...that's not healthy.....

I've always felt one needs a healthy "give & take".... for a mutual happiness... it should never be one sided.. Sacrificial loving when it's only to pamper one would get old real fast..
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post #67 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 04:55 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

I think co-dependence involves destructive behavior.

Like I keep you housed and fed, and you look the other way about my drug habit or something, maybe protect me.

Tony and Carmella Soprano of the fictional Sopranos were co-dependent. She kept the family going while he did his organized crime. The show was pretty much about their marriage to a large degree, interspersed with Mob Voyeurism.

And maybe I seem a bit confused. . .but maybe, I got you pegged! Ha! Don't know what to do about those tossed salad and scrambled eggs. . .they're posting again. Scannerguard has left the building.
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post #68 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 05:02 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Clingyness is solely about me and my needs. About what I want from you. It's me TAKING something from you (comfort, attention, sex, affection) when it's obvious you don't want to give it.

Love is about YOU. It's me doing something that I'm confident you will like based on experience.


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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
I need to fess up to something..before coming to TAM.. I've heard the word Co-dependent (I recall a woman I knew reading a book on this) but I really had no idea what it even meant.. I think it's still a little fuzzy to me -to be honest..

Isn't it about someone who can't leave or feels guilty over leaving another who basically is screwed up, takes them for granted, is an awful spouse, dysfunctional ...here they suck up all the goodness....while the co-dependent is suffering emotionally but still clings to hope or feeling they are doing the "right thing" by staying, showing faithfulness and charity...

At some point.. it becomes "Enabling"...which can do more harm over good, certainly not helping a couple find their way back to intimacy...

I should just look it up.. but that's my off the top of my head definition of what "co-dependency" is...that's not healthy.....

I've always felt one needs a healthy "give & take" for a mutual happiness... it should never be one sided.. Sacrificial loving when it's only to pamper one would get old real fast..
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post #69 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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SA,

You aren't clingy - you're loving. The difference is.....

Being 'clingy' is defined as: Expressing more love towards and/or more needs towards your partner - than they want you to.

It's either smothering or being needy or worse - BOTH of those things.

When two people love each other and love doing things together - there's a word for that - and it isn't clingy. The word is blissful
.
You are known for breaking down definitions with an insightful clarification in the simplest terms.. this is one of those..

"Being 'clingy' is defined as: Expressing more love towards and/or more needs towards your partner - than they want you to. "

This reminds me of your thread >> The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R .... you spoke of clinginess / a temperature a couple needs to be mindful of... I remember telling you yrs ago in a post....we have no thermostat, is good - We Like ! ... there is no push back from either of us...

Still.. a really GOOD thread there !

Quote:
In an LTR the ideal emotional temperature is one that BOTH people are comfortable with. Couples often “fight” for decades over the “thermostat” setting.

He likes it really warm and constantly shows and wants to be shown love. She is likes it cooler and dislikes constantly being barraged with “love” as it makes her feel emotionally crowded. She starts seeing him as “clingy and insecure” and she withdraws. He clings harder, she pulls back further feeling ever more crowded. Sex dies and he frantically tries to raise the temperature using an ever increasing stream of love. She loses respect and ends it or has an affair.

When you overheat someone with too much love, THEIR natural reaction is to try to “cool off” by giving you less love and less OR by provoking conflict to get you to go BACK UP. And they often reduce/stop having sex with you because when they already feel overheated/claustrophobic the LAST thing they want is the intense closeness of sex. Below is an example of badly mismatched thermostat settings....
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post #70 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 07:52 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
I was wondering what Harley would consider that "one on one" Undivided attention he speaks of -to qualify for these 15 hrs he speaks of...so I looked it up...

Right now.. my husband & me is side by side on our laptops.. he is sitting on the bed.. I am on the floor...3 ft from each other.. we're not focused on each other.. we may have words here & there.. but he's enjoying some personal laptop time & I am on here doing a post.. (this would not be qualifying)... I know how to shake that up though.... just flash him my boobs!...then suddenly he'd be right over....ha ha

Harley would not approve of my marriage in any way, shape or form, I am sure

Yeah, the sitting side-by-side on devices is very common now; we sure do a lot of that.

If I flashed my husband my boobs, he'd smile then go back to what he was doing.

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post #71 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by meson View Post
I agree with the majority of his ideas as well. However I wish he had chosen some other word than independant along with the magnitude of the time required to feed a marriage is couple dependent not a universal.
Great posting @meson I figured you do as I find I love many of your insightful postings.. we may be a little off on this one.. but that's expected...

Quote:
I think craving your spouse is a property of a good marriage. Love is based upon a neural physical addiction so the craving is natural. That's what missing our spouse is about when the travel and away for a time. I often get this at the end of a regular day as well. The point is the amount of time required differs for many.
It is like a chemical addiction...Yes !

Of course this subject fascinates me, I have greatly enjoyed this book - Why We Love: The Nature and Chemistry of Romantic Love by anthropologist Helen Fisher......she speaks of it being a CRAVING, a DRIVE more than an emotion even...there is special meaning, gives intense energy.. like a rush of cocaine..she speaks of all the hormones & how they interact with each other... I can't keep all of this straight... a snippet from pg 56 says:

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Nevertheless, he distinct correlation between numerous characteristics of romantic love & the effects of these 3 brain substances led me to the following hypothesis : this fire in the mind is caused by elevated levels of either dopamine or norepinephrine or both, as well as decreased levels of serotonin. These chemicals from the backbone of obsessive, passionate , Romantic love.
You Tube : The brain in love - Helen Fisher

(4:20) speaks of the Madness of Romantic Love...parts of the brain, below the emotions even...there is a reward system.. heavily focused on 1 person, wanting, motivation, Craving, it's like a rush if cocaine , obsession..

(6:00) speaks of the pain of rejection , on an MRI scan.. it's the same region of the brain ...what a cruel thing.. the measuring we endure to what went wrong...(7:20) about deep attachment , (8:30) Romantic love is an addiction ... (13:30) who chooses who to love.. based on personality types, ratio of hormones she feels there is "biology" to this....



Quote:
This kind work being together while helping the other to achieve goals is cool! It brings the both of you together while allowing independent achievement.
It may have been an odd example but our most recent to share I suppose... I try to be helpful, active in anything related to maintaining our family...what needs done for a smooth running...all comes back to being a Team member.. there is no jealousy, only celebration , when he does well.. we all do well..

Quote:
Nothing wrong here! You enjoy and need each others time almost exclusively. You both are growing. The house project, the certification test and kids. I think this is normal.
I hope we are normal.. the kids keep things entertaining for sure... always something going on.. if we had other outside hobbies.. I think things would be a little more stressful around here..

Quote:
Our needs are just more of a non-intersecting type which we accommodate in a similar but slightly different way. There is more than one combination type to completely satisfying needs of both spouses.
I want to hear the differences in couples...as I recall your wife is a very intelligent woman with a very good career.. she sounds "very important" at work !

Quote:
I encouraged a misunderstanding here. We were who we were at the start of the marriage and that's who we were for the years we knew each other before we dated. With the complication of kids, work and aging parents we gave up essential part of ourselves to the family. It was done out of time management necessity but it slowly changed us and me in particular to be unhappy moving towards bitter. Resentments took root. It wasn't until I withdrew and decided to work on myself that I noticed I had really given up being what I was and this was a person my wife didn't like.
What you describe here is probably very common... I think I am far less relateable since having kids was like a darn utopia for me ...I became more thankful , grateful and joyous with the more babies we had !! Even if I was a little too oblivious to how I could have given HIM a little more attention.. beings I am naturally somewhat clingy.. I wasn't too bad..even then!! ha ha

Quote:
My seeking out my old interests improved me and reset me back to the man my wife fell in love with. So that's where I'm coming from about this. It's a bit of a nitpick but it made a difference in my marriage.
This is because YOU BECAME HAPPIER , finding yourself again.. some of your initial purpose & passion... getting back to climbing... ... this was part of it , right ?? With your renewed sense of self, your countenance changed.. the atmosphere in your home became better...and your attractiveness once again swooned.

I can probably relate to this.. when I couldn't have kids.. I was angry, frustrated, my husband would come home in a good mood wanting me.. a little bit frisky...and I pushed him away many times -being angry.... impatient.. I was too heavily focused on what I couldn't have.. I felt I was being cheated... when would God answer my cries...

I look back and think my husband was somewhat of a Saint to put up with me back then..he allowed me to cry on his shoulder... We need someone to see what's behind our pain .. he sympathized with me.. good thing he wanted kids too.. or he would not have been able to stand me !@# We had our 1st son there were great times too..

He waited it out, supported me through all the infertility testing-giving his sperm sample, exploratory surgery on me... and it all came to pass.. I think I can relate to you in this way... as I was out of sorts too during that time.. I felt lost, disillusioned...I wasn't who I wanted to be...I surely wasn't at my best !
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post #72 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 08:25 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

SA,
The thing about that post is that - certain behaviors are like a very rich dessert - double chocolate cake. Too much and it feels bad, maybe really bad.

And it is why it's important to pay attention to how your partner is responding to very 'hot/intense' behaviors. If they respond positively that's terrific. If however, they step away from you - verbally or physically - maybe it's just too much for them at that moment in time. Or too much in general.

Shoot me for saying this but - there's an awful lot of folks who use 'I love you' as a prompt. For those folks - it's really a question camouflaged as a statement. What they really mean is: Do you love me.

When I say it - only thing I'm looking for is whether M2 seems happy about it. Not to hear it back. If she's happy being loved - I'm good to go. I KNOW M2 loves me. Shows me all the time. Tells me now and then - but not as often as I tell her - which is perfectly fine.

And M2 - doesn't use it as a prompt either. She just asks, especially when she's being difficult in a funny way. Says: But do you love me?




Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
You are known for breaking down definitions with an insightful clarification in the simplest terms.. this is one of those..

"Being 'clingy' is defined as: Expressing more love towards and/or more needs towards your partner - than they want you to. "

This reminds me of your thread >> The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R .... you spoke of clinginess / a temperature a couple needs to be mindful of... I remember telling you yrs ago in a post....we have no thermostat, is good - We Like ! ... there is no push back from either of us...

Still.. a really GOOD thread there !
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post #73 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 09:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
Harley would not approve of my marriage in any way, shape or form, I am sure

Yeah, the sitting side-by-side on devices is very common now; we sure do a lot of that.

If I flashed my husband my boobs, he'd smile then go back to what he was doing.
There is a poster here who feels everything Harley says is out of date, him & his wife started laughing reading about the emotional needs, then threw the book out - this was yrs ago now, as he is divorced & had a few GF's since then.....he spoke how that doesn't describe him or what he needs at all..

This surprised me a bit as even if a # of those didn't fit.. surely a few did....I was tempted to ask WHAT is important to him then... what are his Emotional Wants /desires to sustain a healthy relationship .... I understand some people are put off by the term "NEED" or "NEEDS" since this isn't food, shelter, the air we breathe (that's another post) but we all have innate desires -if we care about intimacy at all ....

Well.. Harley would surely frown on myself & husband enjoying some porn together on occasion... so as much as I resonate with nearly everything he pens... I don't feel this (always) hurts marriages.. it solely depends on the couple.. but he's a Christian man... those are his beliefs, his boundaries... I respect it..

We're just not that wholesome & have no desire to be !!

So @notmyrealname4 ... forget Harley.. do you approve ....or do you long for some changes -to bring you closer together ??

I'm assuming you had a different username before we got our passwords reset with your higher poster count here ....I'm wondering who you are , maybe I know more of your story ?
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post #74 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 10:07 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
There is a poster here who feels everything Harley says is out of date, him & his wife started laughing reading about the emotional needs, then threw the book out - this was yrs ago now, as he is divorced & had a few GF's since then.....he spoke how that doesn't describe him or what he needs at all..

This surprised me a bit as even if a # of those didn't fit.. surely a few did....I was tempted to ask WHAT is important to him then... what are his Emotional Wants /desires to sustain a healthy relationship .... I understand some people are put off by the term "NEED" or "NEEDS" since this isn't food, shelter, the air we breathe (that's another post) but we all have innate desires -if we care about intimacy at all ....

Well.. Harley would surely frown on myself & husband enjoying some porn together on occasion... so as much as I resonate with nearly everything he pens... I don't feel this (always) hurts marriages.. it solely depends on the couple.. but he's a Christian man... those are his beliefs, his boundaries... I respect it..

We're just not that wholesome & have no desire to be !!

So @notmyrealname4 ... forget Harley.. do you approve ....or do you long for some changes -to bring you closer together ??


I don't think human needs can be broken neatly into categories.

At the same time, if this book (HNHN) draws people together and improves their marriage; I'm all for happy humans.

lol, you would have made a good counselor yourself you love researching and understanding human needs and behavior.


I have given up on being closer together. I am trying, instead, to be content with what I have. Being disappointed once in a while is bearable; constant disappointment is acidic to the soul.

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post #75 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 10:35 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by Scannerguard View Post
Now see, speaking to the travel aspect of a relationship and independence, I would like my second career to be a traveling job M-F and I would like to meet a partner who was cool with that. Essentially I would travel Monday through Friday and spend my time teaching healthcare professionals and in my off time, during the week, I hope to exercise and write. I would be well paid for this with benefits.

Fly back in on Friday and be with her/family. Vacations, holidays. . .all in there. . .being self-employed I never had any of this. I"m single now so I can choose this lifestyle unencumbered.

But, I have had women scold me saying "Well, you'll never have a relationship that way!!!"

So maybe this is too unrealistic on how people are wired (wired, to well, "cling". . .darn. . .there goes that negative word). I can't be shaking a Simplyamorous-like SO loose at the airport every week, holding my ankle as I try to board .

I am not sure I can handle these dramatic partings every week. (what an ego, lol - yes I'm teasing you SA)

A guy has gotta roam dear.
But see....someone with your lifestyle would be PERFECT for someone like me!

I also love exercise and I have no problem doing this alone. And since my *third* career is writing, I would have the time to do this M-F while you were gone, or even when you were home. Even if we traveled together occasionally (new city I've never been too, for example), I could easily entertain myself while you were working.

Would *we* still be able to have a decent relationship?

Of COURSE!

I think it's just a matter of finding someone who has a similar outlook on life.

Last edited by Vega; 08-16-2016 at 10:41 PM.
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