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post #91 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I think the categories aren't rigid.

At one time, I had what I thought was a "romantic" marriage. I did all sorts of corny romantic sh-t, but it was well received. We were extremely close, best friends, the whole thing.

Then, it turned into what was probably perceived by my wife to be a "sponge" relationship. The "romantic" stuff was no longer well received. There was no interest in being close. Increasing the "romantic" load did not bring us closer, it created additional tension.

Later, it turned by default into an "independent" relationship. I mainly try to let go of my desire to connect and seek happiness elsewhere. On the whole, I think I am a more complete person as a result of going through this.

However, I'm not sure there is any real "relationship" in a truly independent existence. It's like, if you expect nothing from the other person, what sort of relationship is it really? The charitable view, I guess, is that it's like a parent/child relationship in which you give but expect nothing back. The not so charitable view is that it's nothing and a total waste of any energy you apply to it.

From time to time, I still "relapse" into seeking a connection. I almost always regret this because I am almost always rejected.

I laugh at the "15 hrs per week" supposed requirement. My wife would rather read by herself or go to the gym by herself or text with her friends than connect with me on any level. I would say we spend less than 30 minutes per week total where we actually interact 1 on 1.

And then the real catch 22 is that she will tell me that she does not feel close to me because we lack an "emotional connection."

I can't even get angry over this anymore because it is all so absurd. I am doing this to myself at this point so I only blame myself for having any expectation that it could be different.
@Anon1111 it's not that I want to give you a for this.. it's just that what you have laid out here is THE OTHER SIDE of this..it's a very dark side.. a painful side... how a couple can start out one way, Romantic & full of hope..... then little by little...it can be eaten away and the 2 that felt "one" find themselves as nothing more than roommates, content to seek other people out to fill their days.. ignoring each other, blame shifting, making excuses ..and just "enduring" a marriage.

I don't know your story...it almost sounds as though you don't have a problem with Harley or what he says.. just that you're experience is SHE isn't budging......

I do believe us women can be hard nosed & hurt our men, probably easier to hurt a softer man, taking him for granted ....it always takes 2....the seed could have been started by either... then we start "reacting".. and it snowballs from there, at this point.. it's always "the other's fault".

I think it would be awful to feel your hands are tied here.. who wants further rejection..

Anytime I read something like this. ...my 1st thought is...RESENTMENT... what happened years ago... even if they were little things, maybe they were bigger TO HER .... What seed was started here that grew & grew strangling your emotional connection with each other.... there are answers to these questions.. once resentment gets so embedded.. some couples can never find their way back...this is why they need the help of a counselor to dig that up.. the grudge holding effects have to be worked through and forgiven.. basically...

I liked that you brought up the "Romantic marriage" sort of model.. I know this is what Harley speaks of, it seems very obvious from his writings (at least to me)... even if he isn't using these terms... (more in the next post on this)...

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post #92 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 12:16 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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@Anon1111 it's not that I want to give you a for this.. it's just that what you have laid out here is THE OTHER SIDE of this..it's a very dark side.. a painful side... how a couple can start out one way, Romantic & full of hope..... then little by little...it can be eaten away and the 2 that felt "one" find themselves as nothing more than roommates, content to seek other people out to fill their days.. ignoring each other, blame shifting, making excuses ..and just "enduring" a marriage.

I don't know your story...it almost sounds as though you don't have a problem with Harley or what he says.. just that you're experience is SHE isn't budging......

I do believe us women can be hard nosed & hurt our men, probably easier to hurt a softer man, taking him for granted ....it always takes 2....the seed could have been started by either... then we start "reacting".. and it snowballs from there, at this point.. it's always "the other's fault".

I think it would be awful to feel your hands are tied here.. who wants further rejection..

Anytime I read something like this. ...my 1st thought is...RESENTMENT... what happened years ago... even if they were little things, maybe they were bigger TO HER .... What seed was started here that grew & grew strangling your emotional connection with each other.... there are answers to these questions.. once resentment gets so embedded.. some couples can never find their way back...this is why they need the help of a counselor to dig that up.. the grudge holding effects have to be worked through and forgiven.. basically...

I liked that you brought up the "Romantic marriage" sort of model.. I know this is what Harley speaks of, it seems very obvious from his writings (at least to me)... even if he isn't using these terms... (more in the next post on this)...
we have a very complicated relationship with 2 special needs kids so I try very hard to give her the benefit of the doubt

I don't think her disinterest in me is at all intentional, but it is disinterest and even though I am somewhat numb after many years of this, from time to time I still feel something.

I am trying very hard to not let her or my children down despite the fact that I am completely alone in this marriage

I know I could walk out the door tomorrow and find a woman who really would appreciate me, but I have not yet made that choice.

I grow very close to acting on that from time to time because I can't contemplate a lifetime of zero love or affection.

Eventually I will act on it if I conclude there is no hope for us.

It would take so little from her to turn me in the other direction.
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post #93 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 12:21 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

I'm sorry to see that nothing has changed for you, brother.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #94 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 12:32 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

What specifically does she need to do? What exactly is the "so little"?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #95 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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we have a very complicated relationship with 2 special needs kids so I try very hard to give her the benefit of the doubt
this speaks enough right here.. I feel for you.. for her.. this wouldn't be easy .. I think only those who have been there can truly understand even...I find the parents who can love & snap back so easily.. they are special too.. it's harder for others...

I assumed Resentment so quickly.. but sometimes it's life's circumstances -they hit HARD & without warning.....I can see how it's just too much for some ..

Quote:
I don't think her disinterest in me is at all intentional, but it is disinterest and even though I am somewhat numb after many years of this, from time to time I still feel something.
this probably helps some.. that it's not intentional but still.. very painful.. alone.

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I am trying very hard to not let her or my children down despite the fact that I am completely alone in this marriage
You are a good man for WANTING the do the right thing by them.. I still very much sympathize with you.

Quote:
I know I could walk out the door tomorrow and find a woman who really would appreciate me, but I have not yet made that choice.

I grow very close to acting on that from time to time because I can't contemplate a lifetime of zero love or affection.

Eventually I will act on it if I conclude there is no hope for us.

It would take so little from her to turn me in the other direction.
It may take your leaving... for her to wake up and realize what she lost.. or is about to lose... it's a shame it often happens this way.. why are we so stupid.. allowing things to go on THAT LONG when we could have made it all so much simpler...working together, for comfort & holding each other up during the difficult... I don't know...
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post #96 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

On the Romantic Marriage model.....I mentioned this book earlier >> If you are in a good marriage, ...listing 5 examples of marriages: (Romantic, Rescue , Companionate, Traditional & Renegotiating - covered in this book)...

A few snippets from this chapter:

Quote:
It is fashionable to think that passionate or Romantic love is short lived, that disenchantment sets in after a year or 2, and that realism descends with a 9-5 job and diaper pails. We've all been told that the cold light of day is different from the enchantment f starlight. Songwriters, after all, do not pen verses that begin "Daylight becomes you...."

But even before I undertook this study of happy marriages, I knew long -married couples who had maintained a loving, romantic, and often passionate vision of each other during their thousands of days & nights together. I wondered how common such romantic marriages were . Did they happen only to the lucky few ? Were they as rare as the blue moon...

I was surprised to find that some 15% of the happily married couples in the study fell into the Romantic Marriage category.. ...after 20, 30, even 40 yrs .. such couples spoke of mutual love, passion, excitement & ecstasy...

In speaking about their relationships, the men & women in romantic marriages said that their mate had brought JOY to their lives, and when they spoke of hopes for their children, they looked at their own marriage as the richest legacy they could bestow. After 25 yrs of marriage , a man told me, "My wish for my children is that they feel the joy of loving someone that I've felt in our marriage".

Many couples in romantic marriages have a sense that they are connected by a magic that transcends time & space, they speak in mystical terms, as if their meeting were pre-ordained or the answer to a prayer.

My Observations showed clearly that idealization & fantasy are not necessarily doomed to end when the honeymoon is over.. In fact, many early idealizations translate well into reality and are even strengthened by life experiences.

In happy marriages the high expectations of courtship are modified to fit life's inevitable disappointments, but they are never entirely given up.. "I'd rather spend an evening with him than anyone I've ever met" said a wife of 30 yrs...

In the romantic marriages I studied, these idealizations are more powerful, more erotic, more closely linked to vivid memories of wonder of the 1st meeting than in other marriage types...the mutual sense of Physical & Emotional connection was evident in those memories which were filled with tingling sensory impressions & suffused with light.

Marriage without fantasy or idealization is dull & dispirited. Many of the divorced couples I've seen appear to have never idealized each other. I've learned to ask myself about a divorcing couple...was there ever love, joy, hope, idealization in this relationship? Often I'm hard to put a find on it.. Divorce does not always represent an erosion of love or high expectations; in many cases the expectations weren't high enough.

Idealization of the other is part of every happy marriage. In a romantic marriage the early idealizations remain very powerful.
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post #97 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 02:21 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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What specifically does she need to do? What exactly is the "so little"?
I want normal husband/wife stuff. Not even normal. Like a fraction of normal.

Sex once a week would be nice. We've had sex 1 time in the last 3 months and I could barely deal with the f-ing buildup it required.

Demonstrating any interest in me at all as a person would be great. Like noticing if I get a haircut or buying me a father's day gift or anything normal.

But actually, I really don't want her to do anything she does not want to do.

That is the problem. She clearly has no desire to do the things that I would want her to do.

I realize she has very high emotional demands on her from our children (I do too by the way, but it's worse for her, I admit), so I don't want to be another demand on her.

At the same time, she should just want to be nice and have an actual relationship with her husband who is dealing with this f-d up situation with her every day.

The fact that she clearly doesn't is really the issue.
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post #98 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 02:30 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Anon, she seemed more pro-active last fall, before you left TAM. What has happened since?

SA, please let me know if you don't want us to further discuss Anon's issues here, okay?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #99 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 02:56 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Anon, she seemed more pro-active last fall, before you left TAM. What has happened since?

SA, please let me know if you don't want us to further discuss Anon's issues here, okay?
it's basically the same. it's actually remarkably consistent. I keep logs, so I'm not imagining the consistency.

the biggest change is I really try to no longer push for anything from her. I also do my best not to withhold anything from her.

So for example I listen when she decides she wants to tell me some frustration or whatever. "Active listening"-- your favorite.

I also try to do nice things for her here and there without any expectation that she will return the favor or even acknowledge it (e.g., clean the house, take kids away for an afternoon by myself, get her a bottle of wine or something, etc).

It's tricky because I can't do too much of this without building resentment, so sometimes I just limit myself. Less so than I used to though. I'm getting better at this.

But it really has no effect on our relationship.

I got rejected for sex the last two nights in a row.

I rarely initiate anymore, so I'm a bit sensitive today about this.

I feel pretty dumb that I went for it last night, but we had a nice night where she was talking to me and I was listening in bed, so I thought we were feeling close to one another.

She chose to read her book instead saying she just wanted some alone time.
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post #100 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 02:58 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

You are sleeping in the bed with her every night?
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One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #101 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 02:59 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

@Anon1111 - I must say, I have no idea how you are able to keep at it, even if you do limit yourself. I would just end up distancing myself from my W which would definitely move things towards a D
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post #102 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 03:31 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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@Anon1111 - I must say, I have no idea how you are able to keep at it, even if you do limit yourself. I would just end up distancing myself from my W which would definitely move things towards a D
I did the distance thing for a while, but I ultimately realized that as long as I wasn't willing to D, that I was really being inconsistent by having this attitude

so I try to now be as "in it" as I possibly can
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post #103 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Anon, she seemed more pro-active last fall, before you left TAM. What has happened since?

SA, please let me know if you don't want us to further discuss Anon's issues here, okay?
Doesn't bother me at all. His is an example of a spouse not willing to heed helpful marital advice -like Harley's, to give our spouses that "Extraordinary care" / spending time with each other, etc ... oh what a difference it could make if she just started TRYING...baby steps even.. an "I'm sorry" if she misses it ...these little things could mean so very much.

I'm sure he'd be "over the moon" with SOMETHING, showing a renewed enthusiasm doing all he could to keep that going.. but he needs something to work with -other than rejection, and apathy at every turn....

How he holds onto hope with this.. I don't know.... men like @Anon1111 , I see as the GOOD GUYS...the one's who put themselves last, so honorable for staying - yet it's like a prison for them... It's hard to know what to say because we all need something coming back to us.. to keep our spirits up - to keep some glimmer of hope alive.. is she depressed.. is this it ??

I don't have the answers -other than it may take his leaving to awaken her to what she's lost.... it shouldn't be this way, it's so backwards & such a waste.... but I believe it IS for some people..


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post #104 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 07:13 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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doesn't bother me at all. His is an example of a spouse not willing to heed helpful marital advice -like Harley's... oh what a difference it could make if she just started TRYING.. I'm sure he'd show enthusiasm and do all he could to keep that going.. but he needs something to work with -other than rejection, and apathy at every turn....

How he holds onto hope with this.. I don't know.... men like @Anon1111 , I see as the GOOD GUYS...the one's who put themselves last, so honorable for staying - yet it's like a prison for them... It's hard to know what to say because we all need something coming back to us.. to keep our spirits up - to keep some glimmer of hope alive.. is she depressed.. is this it ??

I don't have the answers -other than it may take his leaving to awaken her to what she's lost.... it shouldn't be this way, it's so backwards & such a waste.... but I believe it IS for some people..

We don't hear from her, though, you know?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #105 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 07:14 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I did the distance thing for a while, but I ultimately realized that as long as I wasn't willing to D, that I was really being inconsistent by having this attitude

so I try to now be as "in it" as I possibly can
I think that is really good, Anon. No manipulation.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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