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post #106 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 06:21 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

SA, I read post # 96 a few times over... I'm undecided how I feel about what 'idealization' in that sense means and if I even understand it correctly. How do you interpret it? There's certainly a lot to be said for having and feeling joy.

My husband telling me 'now wasn't the time to nag him' as he left the house, helped me realize I was saying it for my own benefit. He was out 6-7 hours. Based on what I knew, while he was out, I considered what he might need. When he arrived home, I had a big glass of water and hot tea at his bedside. He was surprised I was still awake. He gulped the water, said it was just what he needed, appreciated the tea, and told me all about it. He looked exhausted. T-shirt covered in sweat, grey smokey streaks across his face, and smelling like smoke. He went to have a quick shower. I rolled over and momentarily closed my eyes, before realizing this was another moment that could be shared. I got up, jumped in with him. We washed the smoke away and made-out in the shower. Then collapsed into bed in a tired, romantic, heap.


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post #107 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 06:23 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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We don't hear from her, though, you know?
It always troubles when you say this, JLD.

I know there are two sides to every story, but this feels like overwhelming sympathy/empathy for his wife and little for him.

Their situation is enough to sink most people.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #108 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 07:56 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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It always troubles when you say this, JLD.

I know there are two sides to every story, but this feels like overwhelming sympathy/empathy for his wife and little for him.

Their situation is enough to sink most people.
And the bolded is what it feels like to me, in reverse, when I read certain posts, far.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #109 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 08:10 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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You are sleeping in the bed with her every night?
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I would say 50/50.

our younger son has a lot of trouble settling down at night so we often take turns sleeping with him when he can't calm down.

on the nights where he goes to sleep fairly easily, we are in the same bed.
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post #110 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 08:17 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I would say 50/50.

our younger son has a lot of trouble settling down at night so we often take turns sleeping with him when he can't calm down.

on the nights where he goes to sleep fairly easily, we are in the same bed.
I think you know why I asked. Nothing was said in the past about your younger son being a part of it.

At any rate, glad to hear you are back in the same bed.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #111 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 08:35 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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It always troubles when you say this, JLD.

I know there are two sides to every story, but this feels like overwhelming sympathy/empathy for his wife and little for him.

Their situation is enough to sink most people.
I think it's a fair point.

there are always two sides to every story. if A2 saw the world exactly as I do (or vice versa), there'd be no issue between us.

I don't think either one of us is a bad person or is intentionally doing anything to the other.
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post #112 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 08:38 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I think you know why I asked. Nothing was said in the past about your younger son being a part of it.

At any rate, glad to hear you are back in the same bed.
yeah, I'm not intentionally avoiding her like I was a while back.

I generally have zero expectations now when I'm around her, so this has lessoned the stakes surrounding any interaction.
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post #113 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 08:39 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I think it's a fair point.

there are always two sides to every story. if A2 saw the world exactly as I do (or vice versa), there'd be no issue between us.

I don't think either one of us is a bad person or is intentionally doing anything to the other.
I am sure neither one of you is a bad person, nor intentionally stressing the other. And I am very proud of you for not only staying with her, but dropping the manipulation. Shows growth, maturity.

I just wish you didn't take her rejection personally.

Did you ask her why there was no FD gift or card?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #114 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 09:05 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I am sure neither one of you is a bad person, nor intentionally stressing the other. And I am very proud of you for not only staying with her, but dropping the manipulation. Shows growth, maturity.

I just wish you didn't take her rejection personally.

Did you ask her why there was no FD gift or card?
honestly, you should try getting rejected hundreds of times by your spouse and see if you don't feel a personal twinge.

or try rejecting Dug the next 50 times he tries to initiate and see what happens.

nice idea to not take it personally, but totally unrealistic.

that said, I have come a LONG way in this department. I no longer get angry about it. I don't allow it to affect my behavior very much at all. at the end of the day, I don't want her to do anything she doesn't want to do. and the things I do for her are not conditioned on her delivering something to me.

I did not ask her why she did not get me anything for father's day. I also did not ask her why she didn't get me anything for Christmas or my birthday. I think it's pretty obvious.
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post #115 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 09:12 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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honestly, you should try getting rejected hundreds of times by your spouse and see if you don't feel a personal twinge.
That really would feel strange. I just can't see myself taking it personally, though. I would feel like he had a problem.

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or try rejecting Dug the next 50 times he tries to initiate and see what happens.
No, that would never go over. Would not even try.

And really, have no desire to.

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nice idea to not take it personally, but totally unrealistic.

that said, I have come a LONG way in this department. I no longer get angry about it. I don't allow it to affect my behavior very much at all. at the end of the day, I don't want her to do anything she doesn't want to do. and the things I do for her are not conditioned on her delivering something to me.
Excellent, Anon.

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I did not ask her why she did not get me anything for father's day. I also did not ask her why she didn't get me anything for Christmas or my birthday. I think it's pretty obvious.
If you don't ask, you don't really know, Anon. Transparency can work wonders in marriage.


One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #116 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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AWESOME thread!

I read HNHN and Love Buster's waaaaay long ago, before I realized that my late husband was abusive. I thought both books had some good advice, but the advice wouldn't have been applicable to *my* situation.
Yes, without both caring to Do their part... but this is why we "need" the other person - that "INTER"... or it quickly evolves into "sacrificial drudgery" on the "giving" spouse's part....

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If I suggested the Policy of Joint Agreement to my late husband, he would have LOVED it. And, he would have poo-pooed EVERY. SINGLE. SUGGESTION. I made. He would have done it because he was controlling. And 'needy'. And 'clingy'.
Can you give some examples Vega..... I am just wondering if you 2 were just terribly mismatched , and it brought out the worst in him...the disconnect began.. and it was never recovered... or he was just a selfish man, a Dr Jekyll turned Mr Hyde after the vows?

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As it was, he turned every 'want' into a 'need' because he knew that 'needs' outweigh 'wants'. A 'want' is a luxury. A 'need' is a requirement, that is necessary in order to fulfill a 'want' (aka, a desire).
By chance was one of these - his feeling Sex a "NEED" where you felt it a "WANT" ....and he pushed, & pushed & pushed some more, in his frustration, to where he crossed the line into abusive behavior... often times younger men are very antsy for sex but are not "getting" how their wives & girlfriends need lots of affection & care leading up to this...was this part of it?

Your thread > Is Sex The "Bottom Line"? ...I get this impression, is all..

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Anywho, I was never a big fan of Harley. I took his messages to encourage couples to be more dependent on each other; not interdependent.

And interdependence is key!
But Vega... . how do you see this thread as awesome (just the discussion itself) where I see Harley's writings surely not in a negative but leading to a deeper intimacy, romance, Unity, and a shared marital happiness.. it's most beautiful form of "Interdependence"...

I found this quote somewhere..."Of course independence, in the sense that couples maintain their individuality, is healthy in any marriage. But independence at the expense of interdependence will gradually erode a relationship."

As much as I value togetherness with my man.. I would never argue this...

You've given Scanner a # of likes on this thread.. you identify with his strong sense of independence - not really caring to have a partner or if you did.. you wouldn't mind very minimal time spent with them, even just weekends would do...am I reading you wrong??

Did you see this post of his early on...this was one of his examples growing up... he's good with it !... Marriage more of a "Business arrangement".... I wonder how many would be content with that ??

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Now. . .I am NO expert by any means on this complicated topic of marriage but I looked at my grandparents. I think their marriage was about well, more "business". . .raising kids, division of domestic labor (cooking her, handy stuff him) provision for basic needs (2 incomes), SOME minor companionship (travel escort), someone to share in big decisions (weddings, funerals, illnesses), sex of course (as a grandchild pretty freaky to think about that but that's how I got here I guess, lol) . . .but. . .he went fishing and she played cards. She was involved in the UAW union and he liked to tile for his work and side jobs.

They almost DIDN"T want to spend time with each other.

They had FRIENDS for that.

They have spouses for the other list I mentioned above.

Who knows. . maybe I integrated a wrong value from that, I'm not sure.


I do feel we have placed this HUGE burden upon the institution of marriage that we (maybe esp. men) can't live up to. I mean, it's great, SO GREAT, what you and your husband have, but I am not even sure that should be the goal, the GOLD STANDARD, you know?

Do you think?
OK Scanner, getting back to your question.... if I think Harley's example (which really is ours as well) should be a "Gold standard", you feel our expectations are too high, unattainable for many..

Here is what I learned from this thread.. with your contributions & some others... Not everyone cares or wants a "Romantic marriage"... they would feel like this...

Just as some who never wanted kids would never understand why I wanted them SO BADLY... the extra work & sacrifice, I counted that ALL JOY ...I wanted them with everything in my soul.... I was miserable thinking I'd never realize my dream...

I think we each have to know WHO WE ARE and what drives us.. is it a career, is it family, is it success, is it sexual variety/ adventure, is it to love & Be Loved , to share our life with another , making memories & growing old together....what fulfills...what is your brand of happiness?

For those who have this ideal... to Love & be Loved, to be a helpmate so we can wade through the waters of life together... if one is a giver, who longs to devote his or her life to another, sharing is something they ENJOY (I do see these as the more unselfish by the way)... they would be utterly foolish to hook up with another who didn't feel as they...and this includes loving that intimacy in the bedroom! These things are "life giving" when you care about them...

I'm one of those, you'd never hear me say "I don't need a man".. sure I'm not going to die without one... but I wouldn't be AS HAPPY ....I'd long to find love again....and Sex.. Lordy be.. I need that!! ...but not just a random lay to satisfy the physical....

I also know what would leave me "hollow" inside... I care a great deal about "Intimacy", commitment, trust, a mutual affection and a shared vision..

It always comes down to this...find another compatible with our deepest wants & longings.

This is one of my favorite Christian songs.. it speaks of that awesome union between a man & his wife...I find it very beautiful...

Matthew Ward: Perfect Union
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post #117 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 09:28 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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That really would feel strange. I just can't see myself taking it personally, though. I would feel like he had a problem.



No, that would never go over. Would not even try.

And really, have no desire to.



Excellent, Anon.



If you don't ask, you don't really know, Anon. Transparency can work wonders in marriage.
OK, you see my point though. If you haven't been on the receiving end of this kind of rejection, it's kind of naïve to suggest that you shouldn't take it personally. I do my best, but there is a limit.

On the gift giving thing, it's kind of similar. I'm not going to try to convince her to give me gifts. If she doesn't want to do it on her own, then that's that. There's no point in discussing.

Taking a step back, the big picture is why would anybody think a relationship would persist when these basic relationship things are missing.

I'm not looking for a quid pro quo, or to negotiate some result.

I just expect some minimal level of an actual relationship.

I do what I can to facilitate that, but I can't make her participate and have no interest in trying to convince her to do so.
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post #118 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 09:30 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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OK, you see my point though. If you haven't been on the receiving end of this kind of rejection, it's kind of naïve to suggest that you shouldn't take it personally.
QFT
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post #119 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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honestly, you should try getting rejected hundreds of times by your spouse and see if you don't feel a personal twinge.

or try rejecting Dug the next 50 times he tries to initiate and see what happens.

nice idea to not take it personally, but totally unrealistic.
I strongly agree with you ....how these comments would bother anyone in your shoes.... I haven't lived it ... but to me this is like someone who is fertile mertile telling me to "just relax honey" after trying to conceive for 7 years straight.. these type of "easy" comments just speak how clueless someone is to your pain, your unsatisfied longing...the emptiness.. while it was all sunshine & roses for them in THAT area.

Basically.. it's insensitive....as if you should have no feelings or care that she doesn't give a dam*... @jld .... love you ...but you drive me crazy on this .. you expect men to have no feelings.. be a stone..

Not all men are like DUG.. who wouldn't care.. but then again... you have NEVER denied the man !! .... Anon does NOT have the luxury of a wife like you - to WANTS TO PLEASE, who would never think of denying him pleasure ....this is foreign to you both...

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I no longer get angry about it. I don't allow it to affect my behavior very much at all. at the end of the day, I don't want her to do anything she doesn't want to do. and the things I do for her are not conditioned on her delivering something to me.
my husband would feel the same.. the reason I am convinced you are a GOOD MAN -even if I haven't heard your wife's side -which jld asked me about.. is from what I read in your posts.. what I pick up on....YOU SOUND like my husband.. he also wouldn't want me to do anything I didn't want to do.. that would be "hollow" for him.. he needs My WANT.. my Desire....

And he was never one to do something to "get something" either.. there was a time he wanted more ...and I was off in la la land...his feeling of it being mutual meant SO MUCH TO HIM.. that he put himself down and waited for that.. not that he had to wait long.. I always had a sex drive & initiated... but yeah.. I was kinda oblivious...

As I learned years later.. I am just like my husband.. I NEED his desire too.. or it all goes to crap.. I would spit on pity sex !@#

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I did not ask her why she did not get me anything for father's day. I also did not ask her why she didn't get me anything for Christmas or my birthday. I think it's pretty obvious.
Anon.. what do you do to counteract the lovelessness in your marriage? Have you picked up new hobbies.. I would worry some temptations could come along.. living with this sort of void... I can easily see why affairs happen when one is dealing with this sort of rejection at home.. sorry to say..
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post #120 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 10:05 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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I strongly agree with you ....how these comments would bother anyone in your shoes.... I haven't lived it ... but to me this is like someone who is fertile mertile telling me to "just relax honey" after trying to conceive for 7 years straight.. these type of "easy" comments just speak how clueless someone is to your pain, your unsatisfied longing...the emptiness.. while it was all sunshine & roses for them in THAT area.

Basically.. it's insensitive....as if you should have no feelings or care that she doesn't give a dam*... @jld .... love you ...but you drive me crazy on this .. you expect men to have no feelings.. be a stone..

Not all men are like DUG.. who wouldn't care.. but then again... you have NEVER denied the man !! .... Anon does NOT have the luxury of a wife like you - to WANTS TO PLEASE, who would never think of denying him pleasure ....this is foreign to you both...

my husband would feel the same.. the reason I am convinced you are a GOOD MAN -even if I haven't heard your wife's side -which jld asked me about.. is from what I read in your posts.. what I pick up on....YOU SOUND like my husband.. he also wouldn't want me to do anything I didn't want to do.. that would be "hollow" for him.. he needs My WANT.. my Desire....

And he was never one to do something to "get something" either.. there was a time he wanted more ...and I was off in la la land...his feeling of it being mutual meant SO MUCH TO HIM.. that he put himself down and waited for that.. not that he had to wait long.. I always had a sex drive & initiated... but yeah.. I was kinda oblivious...

As I learned years later.. I am just like my husband.. I NEED his desire too.. or it all goes to crap.. I would spit on pity sex !@#

Anon.. what do you do to counteract the lovelessness in your marriage? Have you picked up new hobbies.. I would worry some temptations could come along.. living with this sort of void... I can easily see why affairs happen when one is dealing with this sort of rejection at home.. sorry to say..
SA, did you read Anon's thread in SIM last year, before he deleted it? It really is helpful to get a sense of both sides. It would be even more helpful if he would bring his wife here.

You are right that I am baffled by sexless marriage. Absolutely baffled.

But I don't think telling these guys it is all on their wives to make things better is helpful to them. Honestly, I think it is depriving them of hope! Why would we want to do that to them?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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