I read HNHN and Love Buster's waaaaay long ago, before I realized that my late husband was abusive. I thought both books had some good advice, but the advice wouldn't have been applicable to *my* situation.
Yes, without both caring to Do their part... but this is why we "need" the other person - that "INTER"... or it quickly evolves into "sacrificial drudgery" on the "giving" spouse's part....
If I suggested the Policy of Joint Agreement to my late husband, he would have LOVED it. And, he would have poo-pooed EVERY. SINGLE. SUGGESTION. I made. He would have done it because he was controlling. And 'needy'. And 'clingy'.
Can you give some examples Vega..... I am just wondering if you 2 were just terribly mismatched , and it brought out the worst
in him...the disconnect began.. and it was never recovered... or he was just a selfish man, a Dr Jekyll turned Mr Hyde after the vows?
As it was, he turned every 'want' into a 'need' because he knew that 'needs' outweigh 'wants'. A 'want' is a luxury. A 'need' is a requirement, that is necessary in order to fulfill a 'want' (aka, a desire).
By chance was one of these - his feeling Sex a "NEED" where you felt it a "WANT" ....and he pushed, & pushed & pushed some more, in his frustration, to where he crossed the line into abusive behavior... often times younger men are very antsy for sex but are not "getting" how their wives & girlfriends need lots of affection & care leading up to this...was this part of it?
Your thread > Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?
...I get this impression, is all..
Anywho, I was never a big fan of Harley.
I took his messages to encourage couples to be more dependent on each other; not interdependent.
And interdependence is key!
But Vega... . how do you see this thread as awesome (just the discussion itself) where I see Harley's writings surely not
in a negative but leading to a deeper intimacy, romance, Unity, and a shared marital happiness.. it's most beautiful form of "Interdependence"...
I found this quote somewhere..."Of course independence, in the sense that couples maintain their individuality, is healthy in any marriage. But independence at the expense of interdependence will gradually erode a relationship."
As much as I value togetherness with my man.. I would never argue this...
You've given Scanner a # of likes on this thread.. you identify with his strong sense of independence - not really caring to have a partner or if you did.. you wouldn't mind very minimal time spent with them, even just weekends would do...am I reading you wrong??
Did you see this post of his early on...this was one of his examples growing up... he's good with it !... Marriage more of a "Business arrangement
".... I wonder how many would be content with that ??
Now. . .I am NO expert by any means on this complicated topic of marriage but I looked at my grandparents. I think their marriage was about well, more "business". . .raising kids, division of domestic labor (cooking her, handy stuff him) provision for basic needs (2 incomes), SOME minor companionship (travel escort), someone to share in big decisions (weddings, funerals, illnesses), sex of course (as a grandchild pretty freaky to think about that but that's how I got here I guess, lol) . . .but. . .he went fishing and she played cards. She was involved in the UAW union and he liked to tile for his work and side jobs.
They almost DIDN"T want to spend time with each other.
They had FRIENDS for that.
They have spouses for the other list I mentioned above.
Who knows. . maybe I integrated a wrong value from that, I'm not sure.
I do feel we have placed this HUGE burden upon the institution of marriage that we (maybe esp. men) can't live up to. I mean, it's great, SO GREAT, what you and your husband have, but I am not even sure that should be the goal, the GOLD STANDARD, you know?
Do you think?
OK Scanner, getting back to your question.... if I think Harley's example (which really is ours as well) should be a "Gold standard", you feel our expectations are too high, unattainable for many..
Here is what I learned from this thread.. with your contributions & some others... Not everyone cares or wants a "Romantic marriage"... they would feel like this...
Just as some who never wanted kids would never understand why I wanted them SO BADLY... the extra work & sacrifice, I counted that ALL JOY ...I wanted them with everything in my soul.... I was miserable thinking I'd never realize my dream...
I think we each have to know WHO WE ARE and what drives us.. is it a career, is it family, is it success, is it sexual variety/ adventure, is it to love & Be Loved , to share our life with another , making memories & growing old together....what fulfills...what is your brand of happiness?
For those who have this ideal... to Love & be Loved, to be a helpmate so we can wade through the waters of life together... if one is a giver, who longs to devote his or her life to another, sharing is something they ENJOY (I do see these as the more unselfish by the way)... they would be utterly foolish to hook up with another who didn't feel as they...and this includes loving that intimacy in the bedroom! These things are "life giving" when you care about them...
I'm one of those, you'd never hear me say "I don't need a man".. sure I'm not going to die without one... but I wouldn't be AS HAPPY ....I'd long to find love again....and Sex.. Lordy be.. I need that!! ...but not just a random lay to satisfy the physical....
I also know what would leave me "hollow" inside... I care a great deal about "Intimacy", commitment, trust, a mutual affection and a shared vision..
It always comes down to this...find another compatible with our deepest wants & longings.
This is one of my favorite Christian songs.. it speaks of that awesome union between a man & his wife...I find it very beautiful... Matthew Ward: Perfect Union