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post #121 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 10:09 AM
jld
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by Anon1111 View Post
OK, you see my point though. If you haven't been on the receiving end of this kind of rejection, it's kind of nave to suggest that you shouldn't take it personally. I do my best, but there is a limit.

On the gift giving thing, it's kind of similar. I'm not going to try to convince her to give me gifts. If she doesn't want to do it on her own, then that's that. There's no point in discussing.
There is absolutely a point to discussing. Put your feelings out there. Let her know how you are interpreting her actions.

But more importantly, seek to understand her view of all this. That is what could really help you.

Open communication is essential in marriage, Anon. I cannot stress that enough.

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Taking a step back, the big picture is why would anybody think a relationship would persist when these basic relationship things are missing.

I'm not looking for a quid pro quo, or to negotiate some result.

I just expect some minimal level of an actual relationship.

I do what I can to facilitate that, but I can't make her participate and have no interest in trying to convince her to do so.
You are looking at this from your side. Share that side with her. But be open to her side of things, too.


One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #122 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 10:21 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
Anon.. what do you do to counteract the lovelessness in your marriage? Have you picked up new hobbies.. I would worry some temptations could come along.. living with this sort of void... I can easily see why affairs happen when one is dealing with this sort of rejection at home.. sorry to say..
thanks for your kind post.

For myself, I surf, I meditate, I do yoga, play a little guitar and lift weights.

Meditation has become pretty central for me and has massive spillover to these other activities and ordinary daily life things too.

"The more you search, the farther away you get, the harder you hunt the wider astray you go. This is what I call the secret of the matter."

-Lin-chi

Last edited by Anon1111; 08-19-2016 at 10:25 AM.
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post #123 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 10:23 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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There is absolutely a point to discussing. Put your feelings out there. Let her know how you are interpreting her actions.

But more importantly, seek to understand her view of all this. That is what could really help you.

Open communication is essential in marriage, Anon. I cannot stress that enough.



You are looking at this from your side. Share that side with her. But be open to her side of things, too.

thanks-- this is a helpful reminder.

I'm done complaining about my situation for now. Just had a bad day the other day but I'm over it.

Everything will be OK one way or another.
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post #124 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 10:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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SA, did you read Anon's thread in SIM last year, before he deleted it? It really is helpful to get a sense of both sides. It would be even more helpful if he would bring his wife here.
I never seen it.. what is the problem.. has he been completely silent on this to her...is she oblivious somehow??

And if so... what the hell is wrong with her.. doesn't she know she ought to please her husband once in a while , that rejection hurts ??

How is he so "the bad guy" here ...if he tried to talk to her and she rejected him again, then again.. then again.. then again..... and he's over here trying on his part, sacrificing himself for his kids..

Hell he's doing quite a bit I'd say.... remaining faithful for their welfare... What is he NOT DOING that she needs @jld.. or can I ask you outright @Anon1111 ...what are your flaws, where have you missed it with your wife ?? is she resentful towards you.. and why??

Lay it out there for me.. Unless he gained 100 lbs , isn't taking a shower, treats her like a piece of dirt (abusive), or if he's totally lacking affection... I can see why a woman would be turned off in a # of scenarios that can't all be covered here...there are some legitimate reasons to turn a man away..


So what are they?? She doesn't seem to want any part of him...does she want someone else.. is she NUMB.. is she on Meds that killed her sex drive & emotions.. if so. this is very common & it is also very hurtful to marriages...

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You are right that I am baffled by sexless marriage. Absolutely baffled.

But I don't think telling these guys it is all on their wives to make things better is helpful to them. Honestly, I think it is depriving them of hope! Why would we want to do that to them?
Doesn't sound to me he has any hope.. but to see if a flame is put under her a$$ when he walks out the door....

Sexless marriages don't baffle me...I just think those who are rejecters deserve to be divorced .. if they don't need sex.. let them be single.... I have no sympathy for them - IF they are married to caring loving giving spouses..the right thing to do -would be to let them go.. otherwise I see them as Vow breakers and selfish..
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post #125 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 10:33 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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thanks-- this is a helpful reminder.

I'm done complaining about my situation for now. Just had a bad day the other day but I'm over it.

Everything will be OK one way or another.
Good.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #126 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 10:44 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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SA, did you read Anon's thread in SIM last year, before he deleted it? It really is helpful to get a sense of both sides. It would be even more helpful if he would bring his wife here.

You are right that I am baffled by sexless marriage. Absolutely baffled.

But I don't think telling these guys it is all on their wives to make things better is helpful to them. Honestly, I think it is depriving them of hope! Why would we want to do that to them?
Hope is important, yes.

But hope built on a lie is setting yourself up for the fall.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #127 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 10:47 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

@Anon1111

Just reflecting here. I said on another thread that Dug has rejected me twice in our 23+ years together. It was surprising, and I did feel shaken up by it. I really couldn't believe it, as a matter of fact. But he explained that as it was very late at night, and he had early morning meetings.

I do think there is a difference between that rare rejection and regular rejection. If he were to continue to reject me, with no reasonable explanation, I would find that extremely strange.

I can't see myself letting it go. I would be hounding him about why. I don't think it is normal for men to not want sex. And it certainly is not normal for Dug.

Anyway, just wanted to bring this up because I said earlier that I would see his rejection as his problem, not mine. I do think it would eventually come to that, but probably not right away.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #128 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 10:48 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
I never seen it.. what is the problem.. has he been completely silent on this to her...is she oblivious somehow??

And if so... what the hell is wrong with her.. doesn't she know she ought to please her husband once in a while , that rejection hurts ??

How is he so "the bad guy" here ...if he tried to talk to her and she rejected him again, then again.. then again.. then again..... and he's over here trying on his part, sacrificing himself for his kids..

Hell he's doing quite a bit I'd say.... remaining faithful for their welfare... What is he NOT DOING that she needs @jld.. or can I ask you outright @Anon1111 ...what are your flaws, where have you missed it with your wife ?? is she resentful towards you.. and why??

Lay it out there for me.. Unless he gained 100 lbs , isn't taking a shower, treats her like a piece of dirt (abusive), or if he's totally lacking affection... I can see why a woman would be turned off in a # of scenarios that can't all be covered here...there are some legitimate reasons to turn a man away..


So what are they?? She doesn't seem to want any part of him...does she want someone else.. is she NUMB.. is she on Meds that killed her sex drive & emotions.. if so. this is very common & it is also very hurtful to marriages...

Doesn't sound to me he has any hope.. but to see if a flame is put under her a$$ when he walks out the door....

Sexless marriages don't baffle me...I just think those who are rejecters deserve to be divorced .. if they don't need sex.. let them be single.... I have no sympathy for them - IF they are married to caring loving giving spouses..the right thing to do -would be to let them go.. otherwise I see them as Vow breakers and selfish..
I think it would be best to let Anon address this, SA, as he chooses.

Thanks for the discussion, btw. It is always good to be able to discuss openly and honestly.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #129 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 10:49 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
Hope is important, yes.

But hope built on a lie is setting yourself up for the fall.
And that is where being realistic, and as honest as possible, is really helpful.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #130 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 11:22 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
Lay it out there for me.. Unless he gained 100 lbs , isn't taking a shower, treats her like a piece of dirt (abusive), or if he's totally lacking affection... I can see why a woman would be turned off in a # of scenarios that can't all be covered here...there are some legitimate reasons to turn a man away..

....

Sexless marriages don't baffle me...I just think those who are rejecters deserve to be divorced .. if they don't need sex.. let them be single.... I have no sympathy for them - IF they are married to caring loving giving spouses..the right thing to do -would be to let them go.. otherwise I see them as Vow breakers and selfish..
just so there's no doubt, I'm not fat . I'm 6'0 / 165 lbs. I've dropped down from 180 in the past 6 months or so-- intentionally because lighter weight is better for surfing. when I was 180 I had more muscle mass and was lifting more. Now I'm doing more yoga. Can you tell I'm a little obsessed with fitness?

Bad stuff:

I was probably a workaholic for many years. I worked like 80-100 hrs per week up until 2.5 yrs ago.

I told myself it was all good because I hired a live in nanny to help my wife out. Our marriage became pretty bad during this period. We had a lot of arguments.

Now I work pretty normal hrs but I make significantly less money. We downsized our house and have a more modest lifestyle. No more nanny, although we do have substantial babysitters who come by to help her out during the day.

I'm a much more involved father. I'm home every night to help with the kids and on weekends.

Other bad stuff:

I would lose my temper or become remote and pathetic after getting rejected in the past. This situation has been going on for over 6 yrs now so there have been some changes along the way.

I would say I really only got a better handle on taking rejection in the last 2 yrs. Really stepped it up in the last year so that now there is rarely a visible reaction on my part.

But there is a history of my wife rejecting me, then me having an argument with her or avoiding her and walling myself off.

At times I think our issues are the result of resentment.

On the other hand, I think I've objectively done a lot to address all of these issues and there has been no change in the relationship, so that makes me think it's not just resentment.

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post #131 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 11:26 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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On the other hand, I think I've objectively done a lot to address all of these issues and there has been no change in the relationship, so that makes me think it's not just resentment.
It almost sounds like she is enjoying the benefits of the improvements you have made without her having to actually do anything b/c as you mentioned, D is off the table?
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post #132 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 11:26 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

She is the one who wanted the marriage, right? She has always pretty much been the relationship leader?

And then when you had two autistic kids, in diapers until they were each 6, she just focused totally on them? She did tons of research, just poured her heart and soul into the best possible outcome for each child?

And you felt you had lost your prominence in her heart? The kids took all her emotional energy? And you felt resentful?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #133 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 11:27 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
Sexless marriages don't baffle me...I just think those who are rejecters deserve to be divorced .. if they don't need sex.. let them be single.... I have no sympathy for them - IF they are married to caring loving giving spouses..the right thing to do -would be to let them go.. otherwise I see them as Vow breakers and selfish..
I meant to add that I don't think my wife is selfish.

She has a hard life with kids who place extreme emotional demands on her.

I also believe in her mind she thinks I'm not great and, even though I don't think this is accurate , I realize to her this probably seems real.

All of this is to say I don't really blame her for the way things are between us.

Not blaming her is not the same thing as saying I can be cool with it forever though.
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post #134 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 11:30 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Anon, I think your wife will be stunned if/when you file.

I think that no matter what is said or done in the lead up, she believes you are never really going anywhere.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #135 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 11:30 AM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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It almost sounds like she is enjoying the benefits of the improvements you have made without her having to actually do anything b/c as you mentioned, D is off the table?
yeah, I can't D now.

it would be massively disruptive to my kids.

I'd be particularly concerned about my older son who has made significant progress in the last 2 yrs (now toileting independently, has made his first friend at his special needs school, potentially on the path to living independently one day...)

I don't want to blow this progress up with a major disruption to our home life
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