The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages. - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

I am starting this thread out with a ...these are my personal feelings... not everyone is wired like me or wants the same things in Life & Matrimony.. As with any thread.. take my views with a grain of salt.. Feel free to expand upon this, open this discussion with your variation of thoughts & feelings.. what works for You & yours...

Ever since joining this forum, it's something I've noticed said time & time again, always defended...yet it's rubbed me the wrong way.. "the spirit of it" mostly...... I would CRINGE living with it.. and frankly.. if my husband had it or I...it would cause our romance to slowly wither & DIE..

Upon reading another of Harley's books (Author of His Needs, Her Needs) .... I came upon his explaining IT... he has it listed as one of the "Love Busters" (opposite of our emotional needs, this is what will put a fork through us, losing that loving feeling) ...among those are:

1. Selfish Demands
2. Disrespectful Judgments
3. Angry Outbursts
4. Dishonesty
5. Annoying Habits.... and

6. "Independent Behavior"...

How often do we hear others argue that true happiness comes from within, that each person should be responsible for his or her own happiness...seems a shift from the 60's "ME ME ...it's all about me" generation... we no longer believe we can make or should even try to make another person happy, even the one we took vows to Love, Honor & Cherish... that just doesn't work for me..

Deep down we all know we have an affect on other people...what we do, our words, our attitude, our actions speak, giving of our time, our willingness to "be there" when it may not have been convenient even can mean a great deal to someone.. those "little things".....we've all brightened another's day ...

And we've also hurt someone.... Basically... we can also make others "miserable" with our selfishness , and thoughtlessness if we're not careful..

Questions to ask: Are you making some of your decisions as if your spouse doesn't exist...this being habitual, are they Ok with it? ...Do you ask / seek how the other feels about your plans, or just forge ahead & do what pleases you?



This Love Buster represents any activity that fails to take your spouse's feelings & interests into account..... With a lack of empathy here, it's easy to fall into "independent behavior" as we're conveniently pushing aside the other's feelings, making light of them...if they are on the passive side, they may push down their protests, but feel the pain none the less, or in due time.. a divide takes place, snapping begins....

Seems some have been conditioned to react .."You're not my Mother (or father), "Stop trying to control me!" ... "Why should I have to have Your permission for something I want to do?"... "It's my body, I'll do what I want with it"...

Every situation is different, of course.. there ARE selfish controlling spouses... don't misunderstand..
BUT what if... it really has nothing ever to do with CONTROL....but instead about "THOUGHTFULNESS"... You're being controlled when someone forces you to do something that's GOOD for HIM or her, but BAD for you.. for their selfish gain, generally.

But "Thoughfulness" is entirely different.. You're being thoughtful when you decide not to do something that's good for you but hurtful /inconsiderate to your spouse (find that middle ground as best you can)..... this gets to the heart of what Independent Behavior really is...Thoughtlessness..It's running roughshod over the feelings of your spouse so you can be a little happier, getting your cake, but they are missing theirs.

*** A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior....which benefits both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of you suffers... making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind.

...





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post #2 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 07:37 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

There should really be a balance with independent behavior. My wife and I each do things together and we do things indepentantly. It becomes a love buster when one or both spouses feel left out or neglected.

To me being independent adds to the marriage in a way that can be shared second hand. We both talk about things we do indepentantly and are fully aware of what we do.

For things like decisions we each consider what the other wants as well. It's like you said about being thoughtful. So with decisions we are not really too independent but with some activities we really are.

I don't want to not live because of my fear of what could happen. - Laird Hamilton
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post #3 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 07:38 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife. And the two shall become one.
So; they are no longer two, but one flesh".

That's the ideal. Hard to bring to realization given our culture and our own individual selfishness, but it is possible I believe to a large degree, and I think speaks positively to what you are trying to say.
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post #4 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 09:30 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

You'll note that Harley doesn't list infidelity as one of the Lovebusters. That's because it's covered by Dishonesty and Independent Behavior. In the Harley construct, independent behavior isn't a reference to having independent activities that you enjoy doing alone. Rather, independent behavior is doing things without taking your spouse into consideration.

Going out with your friends and staying out 'til all hours knowing that your spouse is waiting at home and wondering where you are. Accepting a promotion that requires tons of travel, or even a move, without talking it over with your spouse. Having friends of the opposite sex when you know your spouse isn't okay with it. Having an affair. Basically, any time you're living your life as if your spouse and their feelings/thoughts either don't exist or don't matter. Those are independent behaviors.

A hobby you do independently of your spouse isn't a Lovebuster sort of independent behavior as long as your spouse is on board with that activity. Dr. Harley is all about joint agreement in marriages.

You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view. - Obi Wan Kenobi

Last edited by Rowan; 08-10-2016 at 09:37 PM.
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post #5 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 10:09 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

For this "ideal" interdependence to occur, the Marriage must be made either in Heaven......or through blind luck.....not!

Luck is not blind nor is [our] life's main thrust...a willful choice.

A sailboat is always at the mercy of the winds of fate.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #6 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 10:12 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
I am starting this thread out with a ...these are my personal feelings... not everyone is wired like me or wants the same things in Life & Matrimony.. As with any thread.. take my views with a grain of salt.. Feel free to expand upon this, open this discussion with your variation of thoughts & feelings.. what works for You & yours...

Ever since joining this forum, it's something I've noticed said time & time again, always defended...yet it's rubbed me the wrong way.. "the spirit of it" mostly...... I would CRINGE living with it.. and frankly.. if my husband had it or I...it would cause our romance to slowly wither & DIE..

Upon reading another of Harley's books (Author of His Needs, Her Needs) .... I came upon his explaining IT... he has it listed as one of the "Love Busters" (opposite of our emotional needs, this is what will put a fork through us, losing that loving feeling) ...among those are:

1. Selfish Demands
2. Disrespectful Judgments
3. Angry Outbursts
4. Dishonesty
5. Annoying Habits.... and

6. "Independent Behavior"...

How often do we hear others argue that true happiness comes from within, that each person should be responsible for his or her own happiness...seems a shift from the 60's "ME ME ...it's all about me" generation... we no longer believe we can make or should even try to make another person happy, even the one we took vows to Love, Honor & Cherish... that just doesn't work for me..

Deep down we all know we have an affect on other people...what we do, our words, our attitude, our actions speak, giving of our time, our willingness to "be there" when it may not have been convenient even can mean a great deal to someone.. those "little things".....we've all brightened another's day ...

And we've also hurt someone.... Basically... we can also make others "miserable" with our selfishness , and thoughtlessness if we're not careful..

Questions to ask: Are you making some of your decisions as if your spouse doesn't exist...this being habitual, are they Ok with it? ...Do you ask / seek how the other feels about your plans, or just forge ahead & do what pleases you?



This Love Buster represents any activity that fails to take your spouse's feelings & interests into account..... With a lack of empathy here, it's easy to fall into "independent behavior" as we're conveniently pushing aside the other's feelings, making light of them...if they are on the passive side, they may push down their protests, but feel the pain none the less, or in due time.. a divide takes place, snapping begins....

Seems some have been conditioned to react .."You're not my Mother (or father), "Stop trying to control me!" ... "Why should I have to have Your permission for something I want to do?"... "It's my body, I'll do what I want with it"...

Every situation is different, of course.. there ARE selfish controlling spouses... don't misunderstand..
BUT what if... it really has nothing ever to do with CONTROL....but instead about "THOUGHTFULNESS"... You're being controlled when someone forces you to do something that's GOOD for HIM or her, but BAD for you.. for their selfish gain, generally.

But "Thoughfulness" is entirely different.. You're being thoughtful when you decide not to do something that's good for you but hurtful /inconsiderate to your spouse (find that middle ground as best you can)..... this gets to the heart of what Independent Behavior really is...Thoughtlessness..It's running roughshod over the feelings of your spouse so you can be a little happier, getting your cake, but they are missing theirs.

*** A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior....which benefits both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of you suffers... making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind.

...



I love this, and needed to read it. Thank you for posting this.
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post #7 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 10:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
You'll note that Harley doesn't list infidelity as one of the Lovebusters. That's because it's covered by Dishonesty and Independent Behavior. In the Harley construct, independent behavior isn't a reference to having independent activities that you enjoy doing alone. Rather, independent behavior is doing things without taking your spouse into consideration.

Going out with your friends and staying out 'til all hours knowing that your spouse is waiting at home and wondering where you are. Accepting a promotion that requires tons of travel, or even a move, without talking it over with your spouse. Having friends of the opposite sex when you know your spouse isn't okay with it. Having an affair. Basically, any time you're living your life as if your spouse and their feelings/thoughts either don't exist or don't matter. Those are independent behaviors.

A hobby you do independently of your spouse isn't a Lovebuster sort of independent behavior as long as your spouse is on board with that activity. Dr. Harley is all about joint agreement in marriages.
VERY GOOD Summary of the types of things he is meaning....we see these stories / sort of issues often here...

Appreciate you posting these examples as I really didn't give any.. ..so thank you @Rowan ...
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post #8 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 10:43 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgegene View Post
"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife. And the two shall become one.
So; they are no longer two, but one flesh".
I've experienced this. It absolutely requires that both people are participating fully; active listening, conversations with lots of "wait, can you explain what you just said" questions so that you are truly communicating intimately. If only one person is this open, then the two will never become one.

There are three kinds of business. Your business, my business and God's business. Whose business are you in? -Byron Katie
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post #9 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgegene View Post
"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife. And the two shall become one.
So; they are no longer two, but one flesh".

That's the ideal. Hard to bring to realization given our culture and our own individual selfishness, but it is possible I believe to a large degree, and I think speaks positively to what you are trying to say.
Personally I've always loved this scripture, took these things to in my own marriage...always felt this from him too.

I come across this quote on what "Love is" not too long ago.. I've read a lot of stuff in my time.. but THIS.. just really spoke it, so I felt... even without a spiritual / scriptural take on it ...

How our roots become so entwined...they start to grow together.... (this 1st isn't the full quote, so I wanted to add the 2nd as well)..

...

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post #10 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meson View Post
There should really be a balance with independent behavior. My wife and I each do things together and we do things indepentantly. It becomes a love buster when one or both spouses feel left out or neglected.

To me being independent adds to the marriage in a way that can be shared second hand. We both talk about things we do indepentantly and are fully aware of what we do.

For things like decisions we each consider what the other wants as well. It's like you said about being thoughtful. So with decisions we are not really too independent but with some activities we really are.
It varies between couples how much time / togetherness they desire from each other... I'm pretty sure myself & husband are higher on the bar in comparison to the average (beings we're both "Time" & "Touchers" , love language wise)... it hasn't been a tug of war with either of us feeling he's too busy.. or I'm too busy, showing too much independence from each other..

In "His Needs / Her Needs", this particular book about parenting - still the Parents NEED their time alone, this segment ... Click HERE speaks how a couple need a minimum of 15 hours of undivided attention a week ...for intimate affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation & recreational companionship... that could be a little over 2 hours a day if you spread it over a week's time..

We're probably not the norm...I'd rather go shopping with him over any girlfriend.. (not that I like to shop, actually I HATE it -give me Amazon & Ebay please!)....we seem to enjoy most everything together.. except he's went to Gun shows with friends, and I love a good rock concert that he'd rather not get his ear drums blown out seeing...

I'll go to his coin shows with him, he appreciates that... In our earlier years.. I'd even go to the Junk Yard with him... I wanted to help!

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post #11 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
I've experienced this. It absolutely requires that both people are participating fully; active listening, conversations with lots of "wait, can you explain what you just said" questions so that you are truly communicating intimately. If only one person is this open, then the two will never become one.
... asking for a little clarity shows you are paying attention / engaged... I've always been big on asking "open ended questions" no matter how many years a couple's been together, we're still learning... I spoke of the importance of this sort of intimate communication in this thread...

>> Intellectual Foreplay ... Deepening Intimacy & Insight with "Open Ended Questions"...
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post #12 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 02:32 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

The me me me part: it is true we tend in society for the selfish, "what am I going to get out of this" rather than what can I give to this relationship. However as a personal example, I,stopped drinking, started exercising and generally taking care of myself because I was tired of how I felt. Though it sounds selfish, I knew it would be a positive impact on my marriage as well. But, to stick to it, I needed to change my lifestyle for me to make it stick.

So, sometimes we need to change for ourselves, especially when it results in a positive for those around us. Now, of course my addictive personality means pushing my 55 year old body to extremes. My wife does think I'm crazy working out with 20 and 30 year old who are clearly stronger and in better shape. I liked being pushed to the brink. However, my stamina in the bedroom has greatly increased and at the point she never complains


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post #13 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 02:49 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

My favorite verse about marriage is:

1 Corinthians 7:27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

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post #14 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 11:29 PM
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
... asking for a little clarity shows you are paying attention / engaged... I've always been big on asking "open ended questions" no matter how many years a couple's been together, we're still learning... I spoke of the importance of this sort of intimate communication in this thread...

>> Intellectual Foreplay ... Deepening Intimacy & Insight with "Open Ended Questions"...
If your partner lacks self-esteem, then any clarifying question, "when you said xxx, were you referring to....?" comes across as an invasion of privacy.

Such open communication requires a willingness to be vulnerable. Our society teaches this out of people.

There are three kinds of business. Your business, my business and God's business. Whose business are you in? -Byron Katie
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post #15 of 149 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 04:29 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

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If your partner lacks self-esteem, then any clarifying question, "when you said xxx, were you referring to....?" comes across as an invasion of privacy.

Such open communication requires a willingness to be vulnerable. Our society teaches this out of people.
I gotta be honest Dusty Dog.. if I was met with someone who felt everything (even half) of what I was asking was an invasion of their dear privacy.. I'd be pulling my hair out...it would be frustrating... it's not something I've ever been met with -with my husband....

He opened himself up, never dissed one question from me...and I was a bit of a driller in our early years ..I was seeking to REALLY KNOW HIM, what he was about.... though 8 yrs ago we had a deep discussion about this when I was making a thread on it.. and he admitted he wasn't fully vulnerable.. it came easier if I pulled it out of him.. over him coming to me with "vulnerability" ..is how I would explain that...

But I clearly GET that we need to be very very careful WHO we are vulnerable with....many are not sincere, their intentions could be suspect, manipulative even......we need sweet time to get to know someone - to see if their words line up with their actions, are they trustworthy....

I keep throwing threads at you here.. but I did one on this too!! I feel the subject is very much misunderstood...

I will copy & paste some of my opening post :

VULNERABILITY...the FEAR, the POWER, it's PAIN, it's BEAUTY- How Vulnerable are you?

Quote:
Trenton put this link on here about a year ago- It is one I never forgot, I found its lessons profound. Brene Brown: The Power of vulnerability (this is 20 min of listening)

No woman has studied the subject of Connection / Shame / Vulnerability more than Brene Brown. She originally set out to prove "Vulnerability" is nothing but WEAKNESS - betrayal even! Her aim was to trample it . What she came to learn was such a struggle for her, this Therapist had to see a Therapist!

Quote:
"Connection is why we are here -it gives purpose & meaning to our lives".
Quote:
"Shame = Disconnected -feeling we are not worthy of connection"
With the thousands of stories pouring in to her in her research spanning 10 yrs, she decided to separate the "Whole Hearted" to the "Broken" still struggling with "connection" in Love & Relationships, and the undeniable truth was.....allowing oneself to be vulnerable is a STRENGTH, what separated the 2 was simply ...."they BELIEVED they are worthy of connection, a strong sense of belonging", this allowed them to be more vulnerable before others.

But so often we FEAR putting ourselves out there, can not bear the risk of HURT, we try to NUMB our emotions -but we can't numb our emotions, so many turn to addictions (drinking, over eating, etc). This is not our answer.


*** Brene learned this is how the "Whole hearted" live:

1. Courage to be IMPERFECT
2. Compassion to be kind to ourselves 1st
3. Connection - as a result of Authenticity- the people let go of who they thought they should be -In order to BE who they are
4. Fully embraced Vulnerability- that what makes them vulnerable makes them beautiful.

She Ended with this... "Let ourselves be seen, deeply seen, vulnerably seen, love with our whole hearts, even if no guarantee, Practice gratitude ...."can I love you THIS much"- "I'm just so Grateful" - and Believe we are "enough".

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