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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 10:27 AM
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

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Oh, I never gave it to him, lol. Once I read it, I realized that the issues discussed had nothing to do with him (he has no problem getting what he wants out of life, lol), I never passed it on.
She learned how to grab her own NUTS.

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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 10:46 AM
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

I read NUTS about 5 years ago, for my own knowledge.

Gives good insight into the kinds of emotionally healthy men women SHOULD be looking for.

That and NMMNG.

"If you deliberately plan on being less than you are capable of being, then I warn you that you'll be unhappy for the rest of your life."

~ Abraham Maslow
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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 03:48 PM
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

How old are you? If you don't mind telling us.
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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

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How old are you? If you don't mind telling us.
39
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 08:50 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

First session is on the books and paid up.

TL;DR - I have a lot to work on with myself and return next week.

I'm glad I wrote all that out beforehand because it helped organize my thoughts. She had trouble understanding the NMMNG psychoanalysis on myself and encouraged me to see a psychiatrist for the ADD-like behavior I called out from my history. Fortunately, my very good, high-functional ADD friend has been treated for it his whole adult life so I have a reference I feel I can trust.

I cried for a very good part of it: surprisingly, when talking about my past and the love I had for my grandfather (a real take-what-I-want-out-of-life guy who took the time to take me out 1-on-1 and have honest, man-building talks) and not so much the problems I had at home (but also not entirely dry there, either). For the record, my father wasn't absent in my life and he and my mother are still married--he put me to work for him on projects around the house or on the construction job sites he controlled. My father didn't put up with my mom's nagging or passive aggressiveness when it surfaced, not without raising his voice and scaring us with that deep voice of his. That's part of the NMMNG I'm realizing now, too. Us "nice guys" tend to try not to be like the parts about their father that they saw emotionally upset their mother but it's also likely that's what kept them together. And, yes, I see the irony in that attitude with my mom still sticking by him and what I expect from my wife when I don't stand up for myself around her.
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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 09:12 AM
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

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Ok, just failed at 180; so much for being on track for a full 48 hours.

Things were holding steady until dinner time and she came out from our room after I served dinner to the kids and asked if I made anything for us. I said no, to make something for herself and she started saying things like "good to know for next time" and other intentionally hurtful comments about how I don't care for her (she made dinner for me on Sunday night which was very nice but this was also the same night/day that I mentioned in my first post and my mind was occupied, not very hungry, and I didn't eat much of it). She used it as an example and I blew up from doing 180 into a 360. I make most dinners when we don't go out or order in. I tried to 180 back into it but I lost control. I kept calm but she didn't want to be around me. I acted pathetic again and I feel like crap. I don't know how to break out of my destructive patterns without it exploding in my face.
This sh!t is so hard.

Marriage is all about compatibility. It really is. You two are not compatible. Wow, what a genius statement this is....not!

Mid life crisis. Do I stay or do I go?

I say go.

But "I" ain't sh!t. It is your investment egg. Break it? Nope. Already broken. Make an omelet out of it? Maybe.

Finish the cooking, give the egg to another poor sap to eat. Who? Her next man.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

My last posting was meant for yesterday afternoon but I forgot to submit.

There's more:

I took my daughter and son to soccer practice and my wife stayed home and readied dinner. She had been mildly pleasant since they got home but when we returned she was cold, bitter and closed up. Not surprisingly, my copy of NMMNG arrived while we were out and she opened it thinking it might be one of the gifts she ordered for me for Xmas (she plans very, very far in advance, always had and, when ordering off my AMZN wishlist, gifts are addressed to the receiver). I wasn't upset, but I knew immediately why she was.

Did I address it outright? Definitely not. This was dinner with the family and I was more than ready to show off the "I need to think about myself first" attitude. She sat (more like crunched) at the dinner table, ignored me, ate nothing and drank red wine while keeping the conversation to a minimum with the kids. I was of course fighting that hurt but kept it shut tight and ate all my dinner, even part of hers (it was the most I've eaten in 3 days; I've lost almost 10lbs since). My son went off to get ready for bath and bed and my wife assisted him; my daughter stayed with me and finished eating. About 5 minutes later my wife comes in and calmly tells our 9yo daughter that she's not being quiet and upset because of anything "you or your brother did, you know that right?" My daughter is a sharp kid and when my wife went back to our room I looked at her with a "what can you do? life goes on" look. She pointed to me with her hand by her chest and had a deer-in-headlights look on her face, as if to say: "this is scary and I'm helpless"

When everything was cleaned up and the kids were put to bed I calmly confronted her in our bedroom (where she was working) with the book in hand and a shared a calmly-planted comment that "our daughter understood the context of your apology to her". Before letting her react I showed her the book I knew she opened and felt so hurt from the title (can you say, "don't judge a book by its cover?"). I told her I was going to read to her some selected parts, no more than 30 seconds worth, to set her straight on what a "nice guy" I really was. She wanted no part in it; she just wanted to finish her work. I told her I wasn't going to let her sleep tonight if she didn't hear what I wanted her to hear. She said, "fine, later than when I'm done". So I did what I was planning on doing anyway, next to her, while I waited for her to finish: I listened to another chapter of NMMNG. When she closed her computer I could see her reaching for the remote and I stopped her. She let me read the headlines from the first segment that outlines what a "Nice Guy" is. For the uninitiated, these are all bad, no-so-nice traits. I closed the book and explained I need to work on myself which meant being honest with her about my secreted needs. She already felt like she does too much, like buying the women in my family Xmas presents every year was her current example. I asked her what that was worth to her and if she could come up with something equivalent for me I'd tell her if it was fair trade. I think that threw her off, because she could not think of a thing.

She soon admitted she was more upset that I would jump into these lifestyle changes without any thought of her or the family and leave her to do everything (as if I'd be out drinking or fornicating instead of spending quality time with our kids)! I told her to wait and see. I got up, brushed my teeth, took a shower and went to bed.
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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 01:01 PM
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

Very nice. I would only warn you not to try to 'jump in' to new ways of doing things until you've read the whole book (and HNHN as well).
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 07:01 PM
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

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Originally Posted by 6Sticks View Post
My last posting was meant for yesterday afternoon but I forgot to submit.

There's more:

I took my daughter and son to soccer practice and my wife stayed home and readied dinner. She had been mildly pleasant since they got home but when we returned she was cold, bitter and closed up. Not surprisingly, my copy of NMMNG arrived while we were out and she opened it thinking it might be one of the gifts she ordered for me for Xmas (she plans very, very far in advance, always had and, when ordering off my AMZN wishlist, gifts are addressed to the receiver). I wasn't upset, but I knew immediately why she was.

Did I address it outright? Definitely not. This was dinner with the family and I was more than ready to show off the "I need to think about myself first" attitude. She sat (more like crunched) at the dinner table, ignored me, ate nothing and drank red wine while keeping the conversation to a minimum with the kids. I was of course fighting that hurt but kept it shut tight and ate all my dinner, even part of hers (it was the most I've eaten in 3 days; I've lost almost 10lbs since). My son went off to get ready for bath and bed and my wife assisted him; my daughter stayed with me and finished eating. About 5 minutes later my wife comes in and calmly tells our 9yo daughter that she's not being quiet and upset because of anything "you or your brother did, you know that right?" My daughter is a sharp kid and when my wife went back to our room I looked at her with a "what can you do? life goes on" look. She pointed to me with her hand by her chest and had a deer-in-headlights look on her face, as if to say: "this is scary and I'm helpless"

When everything was cleaned up and the kids were put to bed I calmly confronted her in our bedroom (where she was working) with the book in hand and a shared a calmly-planted comment that "our daughter understood the context of your apology to her". Before letting her react I showed her the book I knew she opened and felt so hurt from the title (can you say, "don't judge a book by its cover?"). I told her I was going to read to her some selected parts, no more than 30 seconds worth, to set her straight on what a "nice guy" I really was. She wanted no part in it; she just wanted to finish her work. I told her I wasn't going to let her sleep tonight if she didn't hear what I wanted her to hear. She said, "fine, later than when I'm done". So I did what I was planning on doing anyway, next to her, while I waited for her to finish: I listened to another chapter of NMMNG. When she closed her computer I could see her reaching for the remote and I stopped her. She let me read the headlines from the first segment that outlines what a "Nice Guy" is. For the uninitiated, these are all bad, no-so-nice traits. I closed the book and explained I need to work on myself which meant being honest with her about my secreted needs. She already felt like she does too much, like buying the women in my family Xmas presents every year was her current example. I asked her what that was worth to her and if she could come up with something equivalent for me I'd tell her if it was fair trade. I think that threw her off, because she could not think of a thing.

She soon admitted she was more upset that I would jump into these lifestyle changes without any thought of her or the family and leave her to do everything (as if I'd be out drinking or fornicating instead of spending quality time with our kids)! I told her to wait and see. I got up, brushed my teeth, took a shower and went to bed.
I'm no expert here and maybe I'm wrong, but I would think it would be more effective if she was sort of blindsided why you were suddenly making these changes instead of being educated about the book and the fact that you will be making them based on a book you read. It just seems that the former approach (blindsided) would be more powerful because she would be wondering, "WTF?" instead of knowing what was going on and maybe thinking it was a strategy that you were trying.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong; that was just my thought process.
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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 08:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

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I'm no expert here and maybe I'm wrong, but I would think it would be more effective if she was sort of blindsided why you were suddenly making these changes instead of being educated about the book and the fact that you will be making them based on a book you read. It just seems that the former approach (blindsided) would be more powerful because she would be wondering, "WTF?" instead of knowing what was going on and maybe thinking it was a strategy that you were trying.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong; that was just my thought process.
You're probably right, and I thought of that too, but I just couldn't let what happened in front of my daughter get away from me. My anxiety is the highest it's ever been and I'm struggling to keep me under control. My wife's condition is still stand-offish, especially because she's pretty down now after coming home from 90 minutes of traffic and no dinner for her. I feel bad for her (because I've been conditioned as such?) and trying to hold out on checking in on her. I realize how stupid all this is from the outside perspective but have trouble changing what's going on inside me.

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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 08:39 PM
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

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You're probably right, and I thought of that too, but I just couldn't let what happened in front of my daughter get away from me. My anxiety is the highest it's ever been and I'm struggling to keep me under control. My wife's condition is still stand-offish, especially because she's pretty down now after coming home from 90 minutes of traffic and no dinner for her. I feel bad for her (because I've been conditioned as such?) and trying to hold out on checking in on her. I realize how stupid all this is from the outside perspective but have trouble changing what's going on inside me.
I know, and it wasn't meant as a criticism. Maybe something to keep in mind going forward. It is all really hard.

If I may share this....

When I read your post above, my first thought was "where are guys like that when I want to find them?" Then I realized that although I have problems dealing with men who jump on me (figuratively, verbally) just for saying something in the wrong tone of voice, I really don't want the other end of the spectrum either. I would not want a man who would put up with behaviors such as cheating. I actually would not want a man who would put up with any kind of my disrespect for him.

If he puts up with me disrespecting him (especially by cheating!!!) then he is not a man to me. I want a man. With boundaries. Who won't put up with crap. Who will (within reason) put me in my place if I go outside of those boundaries. If not, he's a doormat and he's trying to "nice" me and I want an alpha man who will not put up with that crap.

I am a single female about the age of your wife. She may think like me. I think most women do. Something for you to think about.
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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

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I know, and it wasn't meant as a criticism. Maybe something to keep in mind going forward. It is all really hard.

If I may share this....

When I read your post above, my first thought was "where are guys like that when I want to find them?" Then I realized that although I have problems dealing with men who jump on me (figuratively, verbally) just for saying something in the wrong tone of voice, I really don't want the other end of the spectrum either. I would not want a man who would put up with behaviors such as cheating. I actually would not want a man who would put up with any kind of my disrespect for him.

If he puts up with me disrespecting him (especially by cheating!!!) then he is not a man to me. I want a man. With boundaries. Who won't put up with crap. Who will (within reason) put me in my place if I go outside of those boundaries. If not, he's a doormat and he's trying to "nice" me and I want an alpha man who will not put up with that crap.

I am a single female about the age of your wife. She may think like me. I think most women do. Something for you to think about.
LOL, thank you and honestly, I'll take whatever criticism you can give. I didn't post to get validation for my behavior but to get on track to understanding what it is I do that's so destructive to our relationship (hence the thread title and forum topic (we've been making it work with on-and-off happiness for 10+ years)). Your perspective is helpful and I've always felt strong enough to leave her if I learned she cheated on me - after all, getting enough sex is the most frustrating part, to me, of our marriage. Having her enjoy sex or foreplay enough to climax is right up there, too, and I say that selfishly, because I want to be a good lover. Trust me, I have done a lot of experimenting (this is how giving long foot rubs got started) over the last 10+ years to give her the same pleasure I take from it EXCEPT for changing my behavior before sexual congress is even in session. Its been a few years since I last remember her climaxing from me and there is no faking it when she does. I'm sure a therapist would try to medicate her for anxiety and get her to relax but she doesn't think her issues are that bad.
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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-19-2016, 02:24 PM
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

IMO, she doesn't trust you enough to be vulnerable enough to climax. That's just my view, anyway.
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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

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IMO, she doesn't trust you enough to be vulnerable enough to climax. That's just my view, anyway.
I would say that's accurate. She hasn't been shy telling me in the past when she doesn't trust me and that's healthier than saying nothing and being passive aggressive or self-destructive, I'm assuming.

I'm taking care of myself more than usual (read that how you will) to keep me from boiling over and I've been reading up on healthy ways to address my personal problems. I'm certain I meet the criteria for adult ADHD, so I really need to get checked out by a psychiatrist, I just haven't found anyone available for new patients in my network, yet. In the meantime I've started running and lifting again and still stepping through the exercises from N.U.T.s and NMMNG. And, of course, I'm sticking to my 2nd psychologist appointment this week. We'll see how it goes but I'm also on the lookout for a closer-to-home, male psychologist with a lot of years of experience (IOW, older than me).

It was a better weekend in the sense that we were respectful of each other and I did not go out of my way to make her feel special or show her extra attention.

The (US) holiday weekend will be an interesting test - traveling to be with the in-laws always spells higher levels of anxiety for my wife. Fortunately, we have our own hotel room while the kids stay the nights with my folks at their house. Any tips?
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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 11:19 AM
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Re: Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one

Maybe just try to imagine what a good, relaxing weekend would look like to her, and find little ways to make that happen, without any expectations. Marriage isn't all about sex. It's about being happy being together. Dating. Look at the city you're going to and find some special things you can do if you get free time. Like Saturday is Small Business Day, where we're all encouraged to shop at mom-and-pop shops instead of big corporate structures; you can have a lot of fun checking out small businesses you'd never otherwise go to.
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