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Meaning of Marriage

10K views 57 replies 17 participants last post by  lisa.tubbs 
#1 ·
Just read a discussion in here about the meaning of marriage: people arguing whether gay, interracial, and consenting non-monogamous marriages were really marriages. I think they missed the point, simply because even the most widely accepted vision of what most consider a "traditional marriages" is so new and fluid. The truth is that the modern version of a marriage, one based on love, equality, shared responsibilities, monogamy, and life-long commitment are very new and novel concepts. This notion of "traditional marriage" as something passed down from generations is nothing more than a fantasy. Reality is that we are still struggling to figure out the definition of marriage.

Why is this notion of "traditional marriage" fictitious? For starters, until a few generations ago very rarely people chose their spouses based on love. Many had their spouses chosen by their parents or plain need. Potential mates were scarce and there were plenty of other more urgent considerations other than love in picking spouses. Equality among spouses was also a completely absurd concept. Men and women were expected to do very different things and their roles at home were not only very well defined but also radically different. The concept of monogamy mostly only applied to women. Men, particularly those wealthy and powerful, were not expected by anyone -including their wives- to not indulge in sexual adventures with other partners. And life-long commitments were incredibly relative as lives were usually cut very short by disease or a bad pregnancy. Reality is the average marriage lasted less only a few years. Despite our fantasies, most of our predecessors had marriages that were mostly practical, unromantic, and non-monogamous. Very much unlike what we now expect from marriage.

No wonder so many people struggle with marriage nowadays. Many people fall out of love, find themselves cheating (or being cheated on), bored, unappreciated, and just unhappy. They blame their partners and themselves. Many will blame the "media", "liberals", or just someone else. They don't realize our expectations of marriage are way beyond anything humans have faced in the past. And the reason why we struggle in defining and finding the proper rules to make it work.

My point is that there is no absolute definition of marriage or rules of right vs. wrong. We are all just trying to fit these unrealistic expectations into our lives and biological realities. Very stressful for everyone. My guess is that our definition and rules of marriage will change quite dramatically in the future. Which hopefully will happen soon.

Comments?
 
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#2 ·
I would largely agree with you. But, I had to come to this conclusion kicking and screaming after my 24 year marriage ended in divorce. However, you are correct in many of your observations.

The fairy tale is deeply embedded in our society. In fact I would say the fairy tale is probably responsible for many of the divorces we see, especially gray or silver divorces involving aging baby boomers (such as myself). Either thru marriages that never should have taken place to begin with or thru marriages that ended because one or the other felt unhappy that they were not living the fairy tale.

Another concept that needs buried is the idea of the "soul mate". It is crazy to believe that there is ONE person for you in the whole world, when reality tells us that the options are virtually unlimited.
 
#3 ·
I don't get your point really. Why does it matter if you call it traditional or not. The bottom line is as you state the modern version of a marriage, one based on love, equality, shared responsibilities, monogamy, and life-long commitment, this is what most people expect out of marriage in our world today. There can be no doubt that this is the commitment most people expect from themselves and their spouses when they say I do. Whether or not it is a new concept does really matter or absolve anyone from their responsibilities. This is the societal norm for the last 100 years or so.

If this is too much to expect then don't enter into a marriage. It's really that simple, no one is forcing anyone to get married, or be monogamous. If you enter into a marriage keep your commitments. That is basically the bottom line.

Sorry but post like this just sounds like a pseudo intellectual way to justify cheating to me. Maybe this isn't you but I always find arguments like this to come from people who don't really like the fact that 75% of the population still want to have a monogamous relationship and marriage. Despite whether they keep there commitments or not, for most this is the ideal that they strive for. Even cheaters want their spouses to be monogamous they just want to be able to cheat and be vampires. Anyway I think arguments like this (modern marriage is too damn hard) are really because it sucks for people who want open marriages that they only have about 25% of the gene pool to choose from. I get it you want more hot people on your team.

I give you credit, at least you are not pretending to be monogamous. I actually see the concept of open marriage as a very good thing for society, I really hope this will bring some of the people who would normally cheat out of the shadows I hope they accept what they are and marry each other. However I don't think there will be more then 25% of the world interested in it. The rest will still want a modern marriage as you described it and about half of them will be vampires.

Maybe we will all have chips in are brains one day that will tell us whether or not we can be trusted. Or maybe VR porn and sex bots will be so real a good portion of people won't even marry.

Oh one more thing, if you took the vows it's WRONG to cheat.
 
#58 ·
I agree with you. I liked both of their points, however your RIGHT! I just got married this year and to be honest it hasn't been easy. Men and Women are completely different. Marriage is harder than raising a son alone.
It takes effort, patience, understanding, reasoning and Love to make it work.

Sent from my SM-G900T1 using Tapatalk
 
#5 ·
@sokillme apparently you missed the fact that the definition of marriage has changed dramatically over the past 100 years and will probably change as much or more over the next 100 years. As DosXX stated the reality is that we are still struggling to define exactly what marriage is.
Without a doubt the definition you provided is what most marriages are based upon, but reality is rendering the ideal to be less than attainable in many cases. Hence the numbers of divorces, the fact that youth are delaying or forgoing marriage and yes, the amount of cheating.
The "modern" definition of marriage is under assault by the world itself for precisely the reasons DosXX stated - we are outliving our emotional attachments, the world is a smaller place now and our prosperity has made raising children and simple survival much easier without the commitment (and legal entanglements) of marriage.
It isn't making excuses for cheating, it is recognizing that society is changing and the definition of marriage is trying to catch up.
 
#9 ·
I didn't miss it, I don't think it matters. Marriage is basically a contract. When you make the contract you know what you are agreeing to, at that point for the people who signed the contract the definition is static. So it doesn't matter what societies definition is anymore.

I really don't think the definition is changing anyway. I think the definition that OP laid out is a very good definition that everyone aspires to and has aspired to for the last 100 years in western couture. No one can deny that that is what people expect, and people are still trying to and getting married. There are still songs, books, movies all about it. I just think that now a days people don't honor their commitments. They justify their bad behavior and the world is very self indulgent. We have been a me-centric society for many years, no wonder a selfless institution like marriage is too hard for most people. The problem isn't marriage it's the people. The good thing may be that there is less taboo about not being married. My point is the answer isn't lets make marriage like a very good friend that you share an apartment with (which about 75% of the world will bulk at). The answer is if you don't want to follow what most people want then just don't get married, or find someone who wants to share an apartment with their special friend while f-cking others on the side. More power to you.

Again open marriage isn't going to become the norm, mostly because it is not a very stable environment to raise children in. Most woman want stability for their children. This isn't going to change. The phenomenon of single mothers is the real consequence for woman who don't want to marry and still want children, or who marry men who want to f-ck around, it's not open marriage. Most woman reject that idea.

I just don't think your premise holds, I think if we to time travel 100 years from now people will still be getting married in similar numbers expecting the same definition that OP laid out. I will agree the getting rid of the fairy tail of soulmates and happily ever after is a good thing. marriage isn't a panacea to solve all your problems.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Marriage was not created for selfish people who don't hold themselves to any standard but their own. Marriage would be very simple, and relatively easy, if everyone was raised in a moral and Godly way. But they aren't.

It's no surprise that when rotten eggs are put into a cake mix, that it doesn't come out as intended.
 
#7 ·
I believe that marriage evolved as the intellect of the species was evolving. However, as we are now devolving, marriage cannot sustain. Children cannot be expected to make lifelong commitments, they simply haven't the intellect necessary to do so. Marriage was evolving to be a relationship between mature adults. It is no wonder that it is waning in this intellectually barren wasteland.
 
#8 ·
Why is there a need to redefine terms? How about just being upfront with the people you get involved with about what you want and what you are willing to give?

If you do that, it shouldn't matter what (if anything) you call your relationship. What you propose seems pretty similar to changing the definition of thin so that fat people can call themselves that. What's wrong with just living the life you want to live and sharing it with someone who accepts it? Why does the commonly accepted definition of marriage need to change to confirm to you?

Honestly, I couldn't care less if you want to have a completely open relationship and call it marriage. What you don't get to do is demand that everyone else modify their definition. And I still don't get why you would care enough to make the effort.
 
#16 ·
Interesting issues.

I think a major problem is that people may get married with very different ideas of what "marriage" means. There are many definitions that can work, but if expectations are different, there are likely to be problems.

Is marriage a sort of contract where effort is exchanged? Is a promise to do ones best for the other no matter what? Is it based on practical concerns or irrational love? What is the role of family and children?

I agree with others that Hollywood romance has done a terrible disservice to people by presenting an unrealistic view of relationships.
 
#20 ·
I agree with others that Hollywood romance has done a terrible disservice to people by presenting an unrealistic view of relationships.
Does it make me Crazy to actually love & thoroughly enjoy the Romances Hollywood puts out.. but be sickened by the real lives of those making the movies, what we read in the pages of People & endless magazines standing in the check out lines..those, to me, are the bad examples...

I don't know.. I have a good marriage.. I love being married, we both wanted family, to live in the country.... I am a Romantic. I married a Romantic... not in the sense of "flowers, gifts, & jewelry".. but this write up captures it...

Being Romantic means being sensitive, affectionate, and spritually-inclined.

The paramount quality of a romantic person is sensitivity. The romantic is a person who FEELS deeply, and attaches a lot of meaning to those feelings. Because of this, the romantic will express him/herself through such things as affection, verbal declarations of love, and meaningful gestures, all of which come from deep within.

A romantic will perceive a richness of detail that is lost on the non-romantic type -- such things as the fleeting expression of a lover’s eyes. In a split second, the romantic has perceived a hint of sadness there, which the lover quickly tries to hide, by pretending it was never there to begin with. But the romantic saw it, and was touched by it....This takes sensitivity, depth of feeling, as well as spiritual awareness.

Romantic people LOVE to give love! Romantic types simply want to make sure that their partners feel loved, special, and appreciated. No gesture is either too big or small to show how they feel about their beloved.

Romance involves the total involvement with another person’s inner world -- their soul, their intellect, their heart. One gives all of oneself to this person, and being romantic certainly expresses how completely one is committed to this person, to being in a relationship with them.

To sum up, being a romantic entails being sensitive, expressive, and spiritual, not only in regards to one’s beloved, but in one’s life as well, through saturating it with great beauty.
And Yes.. I wanted a man who "gets that".. feels this way about me too..We dated a # if yrs before we married...I felt it then.. as I still feel it today from him... 34 yrs later... it takes the mundane of our lives & lifts us up... we are very thankful for what we share... I still long for my husband's touch...

I can always tell by how someone talks ABOUT MARRIAGE, what it means to them.. if it's "just a piece of paper", it's irrelevant today "who needs it".... it's very telling to who we'd be compatible with..

Then too often people change after the vows.. Love & trusting another... there is always RISK here.....what can we offer but ourselves to do all we can to enhance the passion in our marriages.. to keep the flames burning at home.. but it will always take 2...we need each other...if one of us becomes selfish, cold, rejecting, spitting on the needs of the other .. it's going to shake the foundation..




Ynot: I completely agree on the concept of "soul mate". What an amazingly heavy burden for everyone to carry. And very limiting and asphyxiating for both spouses. A spouse should be a just a fellow traveler in this crazy travel through life. A friend ready to let us fly and explore and find ourselves. And we should do the same for them. No ownership or absurd expectations to "make us happy". And the blame that comes when spouses somehow fail to deliver such happiness. An easy way out from taking responsibility for our own lives. Worse, the expectation of the fairy tale many times does end up killing the beauty and pleasures we can find in our daily lives.
....On the whole Soul mate thing...this was a post I did years ago..

For many yrs I used the term Soulmate in talking about my husband.....cause I always felt I found mine....(He still uses it in regards to me- I'm not going to yell at him for this)....

But one night yrs ago now.... I caught this Christian Marriage Counselor on TV ....talking about this concept/belief..... and how it has the potential to HURT many marriages...

Because when going through a really rough patch, one may start to QUESTION if who they are with = their "Soul mate"....or they missed him or her.... they entertain that their soul mate is still out there waiting to be found... tempted to chase some Romantic rainbow - dancing in their heads .....



Instead of sticking it out & working together for a reconciliation / that hard work needed to find peace & Harmony within the marriage, they are tempted to look outside of it.

So in this way, the "soul mate" belief can lead one down a wrong path ...

The Beef of that program was...a Marriage is what we put into it, where 2 people give & share lovingly & care about one another...this can be found with MANY people around the globe, also if we loose a spouse, we can find it with another ....compatibility is helpful here....but there is no bonafide soul mate for each.

I really enjoyed that program & seen much WISDOM in it...

Yet still...me & mine still refer to each other like this on occasion... We're not perfect..no one is or ever will be -fights will come....yet we can laugh & still find great love in those very "imperfections" ...my attempt at explaining this HERE >>
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...t-but-beauty-can-found-our-imperfections.html
 
#17 ·
As long as you both shall love... how that holds is up to the participants.

Nothing more, nothing less...
 
#31 ·
This is precisely the basis of our vows, and WE - and only we - define how that works for us. Of course, if that ever ceases to be the case, we'll have to deal with the laws of the state where we reside at the time.
 
#23 ·
"Because when going through a really rough patch, one may start to QUESTION if who they are with = their "Soul mate"....or they missed him or her.... they entertain that their soul mate is still out there waiting to be found... tempted to chase some Romantic rainbow - dancing in their heads .....

Instead of sticking it out & working together for a reconciliation / that hard work needed to find peace & Harmony within the marriage, they are tempted to look outside of it.

So in this way, the "soul mate" belief can lead one down a wrong path ..."

This^^^^^^ is what I met about the idea of the "soul mate". I think it can also cause marriages to happen that shouldn't. Such as, when individuals conflate the high of sexual gratification with the idea of having found a soulmate. Once that sexual high wears off or one becomes acclimated to it, the mistake becomes very apparent. And there is just as much danger in the opposite direction, where the partners hold off sexually, finding compatibility in other non-sexual ways. This presents its own danger because what if they later find they are not sexually compatible. Either way the petals often fall off the bloom of a "soul mate". The end result being the above.
 
#38 ·
The meaning of marriage? What's the meaning of life? Both of those question have no right or wrong answers.

IMHO marriage should be a renewable contract, we set ourselves up for failure thinking it has to be for life and if not then we are failures. I have been divorced but do not consider my past marriage as a failure, it would only have been a failure if I did not learn the amazing and empowering life lessons it taught me.

To me, marriage can be in whatever incarnation you choose it to be as long as it is respectful. A couple that remain in an unhappy marriage till death, one that is full of disrespect (lying, cheating, abuse, neglect etc) are not in a successful marriage.

How other people choose to define marriage is up to them, I am in a defacto relationship which is more precious, committed and compatible than my legal marriage was. We do plan on getting legally married in the future, I look forward to that day with happiness and excitement.

In the end I think most people want to be loved, valued and respected, IMHO this can only be achieved with monogamy but it does not require a legal ceremony. In fact one of the more favoured relationship types where I live is two household monogamy. Many people, especially post divorce, choose to be in a committed relationship but not live together.

We are not God botherers here so I see no place at all for God in marriage.
 
#46 ·
I'm so happy to be getting married next year, and even though I love my fiance, and he loves me...I wonder if that will ever change. I'm sure it will deepen as time goes on, but in reading some threads on here about the difficulties that sometimes even the best marriages go through, I hope I can be a good wife to him. I want things to be as they are now: we love being together, the chemistry and sex is amazing, and we seem to be in sync with our views on life, and having children, etc. But, life will change as we know it and while I'm excited about it all, I just hope that we take our vows seriously.

I happen to think that many people care more about the meaning of a wedding, than marriage. :eek:
 
#52 ·
What a philosophical bunch we have here! The definition of marriage is always cultural. To say that marriage was always this or that is just simply wrong. You just can't say that marriage up until 100 years ago was never about love, but about other things. That is just so far off base. Plus, you do realize there are literally thousands of cultures around the world, most of which have marriage. Many of them are traditional in their own way but do not match our own traditions.

Globalization and the ability to interact in so many ways with so many people has led to the evolution of marriage as an institution. Though, there are many who still view it as a lifetime commitment to one person. I personally see it that way. Will my children? Probably, since their parents are still married and never divorced. But there is no guarantee.
 
#56 ·
Marriage should be about love, IMO - it's not just a business arrangement, sex is involved. I wouldn't want to be in a loveless marriage that was just based on an ''arrangement'' or out of convenience. Marriage actually started as a pagan ritual, mainly to give children stability. Maybe people ''grew'' to love one another centuries ago, and the initial arrangement didn't need to have love.
 
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