"Idealism" in Marriage... always bad? - Page 2 - Talk About Marriage
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post #16 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 10:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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Idealism might be ok for some people but not for us. We ground our relationship not on some imaginary vision of the other but on who our spouse really is. We each have flaws and we understand them so that the appearance of them doesn't disrupt the marriage.

You've heard me say this before, SA, the concept of a soul mate is poison and should not be thought of as the ideal for a relationship. The reality is that there can be many people who can qualify and fulfill being a "soul mate". Once the concept of a soul mate is introduced as there can be only one true love you have set the relationship to fail if that person runs into someone else that fits the bill. This then will more likely cause them to doubt the original attachment.

I think it's better to live in reality than a fairy tail.
I hope this is not how I come off.. I have always prided myself on being a Realist.... my husband tells me I THINK too much...I lost my religion on a quest for the authentic.. I've always been a questioner... because I do value what is real...

When it comes to love, being loved.. sharing love....We feel it when we are, don't we... actions speak...our connection speaks this authenticity of emotion.

I understand fully there is a FOG in the beginning of relationships... that we often over look things seeing what we want to see, there is an iffy window of 18 months a couple should be very careful....

We could all sit here & probably fire off a small list of things we'd tweak about our spouses... couldn't we... Do you think I wouldn't have a list ? Sure I would !.. but still....what's on it, these things are so minor in nature...still our lives are so much brighter to have this person in it..

I really don't feel another could replace my husband, how many guys like to watch chick flicks with their wives & don't like sports?.. he's a rarity for sure... For me, so much is wrapped up in the memories a couple has too - I am someone who ENJOYS looking back .. some nostalgia, there is a sentimental longing , affection for the past we've shared also...

There are some people.. I've heard they have no use for that... it's all about "live for today.. never look back"... I would not be able to relate to this..

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post #17 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 04:11 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

If I could not look up to a man, I do not think I would even want to be with him.

I want to be inspired. I want to feel his presence in my life is making me a better person.

I don't mind feeling somewhat lesser in a relationship, if my vulnerability is respected and not scorned. If I did not feel loved and cherished, why would I even want to stay?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #18 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 06:26 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

EB2 is not much into idealism, she admires my strengths yet finds conflict in them for reasons still being sorted out.

She had a rough couple of weeks as her brother passed away from Leukemia (diagnosed just December 2016) and chose not to travel back to Europe for the funeral. As she was Skype-ing with our nieces, they were talking about the "Highland way" of sarcasm as a compliment... it was an interesting conversation to listen to as they talked about what was normal banter far up North in the UK was seen as rude and sarcastic down south in London and the rest of the world they traveled. In essence, if I make fun of you, it means I like you and am comfortable around you, an interesting awareness for me to consider from that moment forward and while it may be seemingly late in our almost 30 years together, is welcome for our remaining ones.

Inspirations come in many different forms... for years I expected to be inspired, as I expected a spouse in marriage should provide that one should lead, follow or get out of the way, when EB2 would provide none of the three and expectations would then seem self-sabatouging as what I saw when I placed her in any of the three roles were left unfulfilled by her and seemingly un-allowed to be filled by me. Since neither option offered inspiration, how is this resolved? It was only when I learned to accept this was how it was did the best path fall to my feet and saw other options than the one that seemingly barred our success, newly inspired.

I find us in an interesting place these days, I am "in love" with a spouse who makes fun of my idealistically "hapless" romanticism (word meant as written ) yet I know EB2 well enough to know that if she did not in her way love me and feel I was worth staying with, she would not be here... and that says a lot to me these days.

And I believe my resolve to appreciate like the reed in the wind, looking back just enough in the bend to gather what I need in my reflection of what was, to know what I choose for the present and not too much as I spring back just a little for the future while her reed remains planted firm and stoically and loudly making fun of how I flex, yet quietly accepting that I do.

Today, that is ideal.

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post #19 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 06:32 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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Selfishness is not generally a term that is a virtue.. Looking up Rational selfishness -- Ayn Rand comes up.. I never read her book - "The Virtue of Selfishness" ....I would argue I want some of this from my lover , that he selfishly wants gratified as I am being pleasured too... I've reasoned we're all selfish on my Compatibility thread, an opening line even.... that we want what we want...so better to be matched up with someone who "selfishly" wants the same things.. (lots of touch, sex, time together for example)... it sure will make for a smoother marital ride...

Somehow I could see my husband disagreeing with the word to be used like this..... I guess it's all semantics though... just as others do not like the term "soul mates" under any circumstances...regardless if a description of feeling may capture HOW we feel... or Idealism is always unhealthy...

I am confused on why it is spelled 2 different ways ...if I am using the term correctly even?

I associate Greed generally with money and materialism, CEO pay comes to mind immediately.. but true.. we can be greedy with anything obviously, like having our way...and it's very destructive in relationships..

Selfishness is not generally considered a virtue because of how society views it. In our society we are taught from an early age by parents, teachers and authority to be selfless or to put others first. Because we are taught selflessness is the ideal, we come to assume the selfishness must be bad and it is equated with greed.

At the center of every moMEnt of my life is ME!
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post #20 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 06:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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Selfishness is not generally considered a virtue because of how society views it. In our society we are taught from an early age by parents, teachers and authority to be selfless or to put others first. Because we are taught selflessness is the ideal, we come to assume the selfishness must be bad and it is equated with greed.
I think myself & you would find some disagreement on this...

You likely admire this Ayn Rand character also.. I have watched some of her videos on You tube and cringe.. though ..I don't fully GET her message... that Speaker of the House Paul Ryan is an admirer .... I can not express the disdain I feel for that man and his politics....but that's another thread...

I am admittedly MORE SELFISH over my husband.. If I don't watch myself... I can be bossy...more take charge.. thankfully we think so much alike on issues, this has never been a contention with us... but but but...

I personally tend to LOOK UP to those are LESS SELFISH ... because it's a quality that I do admire.. even if I kinda suck at it myself sometimes..

We bought chocolate bars out the other night.. I wanted his -after I ate mine.. I'm selfish.. he let me eat it... but I shouldn't have asked.. stupid example.. he'd NEVER do that to me or one of the kids.. he's a good example of someone who seems to get Joy for doing for other people.. That to me is a GOOD person..

I like GOOD people.. I don't admire selfishness in others... I feel it is the ruination of many relationships, friendships, causes problems in the work place, and on it goes.. Every situation is different though..

There IS surely a PLACE for "doing for ourselves" for our own happiness.. of course. I've never personally been the "unconditional lover" type either.


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post #21 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 07:11 AM
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Cool Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

It's just deeply ingrained within my job description that I be "idealistic" about my mate. When I love a mate ~ trust me ~ it's for the long haul, unless of course, they give me reason to ultimately doubt myself!

When I love them, I "idealistically" love very deeply! But then again, that's just me and my self-imposed expectations!

"To love another person is to see the face of God!" - Jean Valjean from Les Miserables

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post #22 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 07:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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It's just deeply ingrained within my job description that I be "idealistic" about my mate. When I love a mate ~ trust me ~ it's for the long haul, unless of course, they give me reason to ultimately doubt myself!

When I love them, I "idealistically" love very deeply! But then again, that's just me and my self-imposed expectations!
Spoken from the mouth of a true Romantic... we're just wired this way.. can we even help it ??

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If I could not look up to a man, I do not think I would even want to be with him.
I am sure we all have our internal NEEDS in a spouse ... I could not be with someone who wasn't "responsible " (this covers many areas, keeping a job, his word, etc) or wasted money... so we'd never accomplish our dreams..

In line with @arbitrator 's post... I don't think I would be satisfied if a man wasn't haplessly idealistic to some degree about the romance we share.. I don't need flowers or jewels, or anything fancy.. but I need "emotion" expressed now & then, some passion for us...
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post #23 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 07:49 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

Everyone here is selfish. And that's a good thing. Who else can see to your needs better than you?

I'm glad that there were people "selfish" enough to pursue their dreams of being musicians, or actors, doctors or civil engineers. They were "selfish" enough to follow their star; and we all profit from their "selfishness".

Selfishness is not the same as cruelty, ruthlessness or arrogance. It means living for yourself first; then others follow. A very loving parent might stand in front of a train for their kid, but that's about it. Most of us want to make sure that number one is okay.

Soulmates, as it applies to marriage, is an abomination. It doesn't exist and we can only help future generations by laughing it out of existence.

I have come across theories that we have many, many soulmates. That it refers to a group of souls that we belong to, and you might not be married to one of them. Your soulmates help you through life and vice versa. Supposedly, you agree to do this before incarnating into this world.

I can believe in that. But there being only one person that you can truly fall in love with, and that you must be 100% completely compatible, and that nothing can ever go wrong if you're with your soulmate-----is a vile doctrine that I think causes disillusionment and misery.
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post #24 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 08:34 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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Spoken from the mouth of a true Romantic... we're just wired this way.. can we even help it ??

I am sure we all have our internal NEEDS in a spouse ... I could not be with someone who wasn't "responsible " (this covers many areas, keeping a job, his word, etc) or wasted money... so we'd never accomplish our dreams..

In line with @arbitrator 's post... I don't think I would be satisfied if a man wasn't haplessly idealistic to some degree about the romance we share.. I don't need flowers or jewels, or anything fancy.. but I need "emotion" expressed now & then, some passion for us...
Yes, we do. And like you, I am pretty simple in many ways. No interest in jewelry here, either, lol.

But I absolutely need to be able to look up to a man! I have to think he is worthy of my trust, my respect and admiration. I have to want to fall at his feet in adoration! That is very deeply tied into my sexuality.

I cannot pretend or manufacture those feelings, either. If he does not inspire them, they are just not going to be there. He is certainly not entitled to them.

I am also not inspired by the idea of forced equality in marriage. To me that would be a real step down from what I have now. Not appealing at all.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #25 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 08:36 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

My husband says we are soulmates. He says we are meant to be together.


One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #26 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 08:51 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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My husband says we are soulmates. He says we are meant to be together.
If (God forbid), one of you got hit by a bus; would you ever remarry?

If you would, then you and Dug are not soulmates; because the soulmate thing is usually predicated on there being only one person in the world that could be such a perfect match for you in every way.

Of course, in a casual sense, "soulmate" has come to mean; "we get along really, really well". That just means you are highly compatible--the soulmate stuff is meaningless or irrelevant.

See, the danger of the soulmate myth, is that if you start having difficulties, or fighting more than usual, etc. etc., there can be this tendency to say, "well, this person must not be my soulmate, ...so I guess we need to break-up/see other people/divorce".

When all that is happening is that your human, fallible relationship is having some difficulties; and you're gonna have to work through them. You are *not* going to be simpatico with someone else on every issue in life.


I'm very glad that you have such an excellent rapport with your husband. I just don't think that "soulmates" has a thing to do with it.

Apologies if that gives offense in any way.
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post #27 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 08:55 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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If (God forbid), one of you got hit by a bus; would you ever remarry?

If you would, then you and Dug are not soulmates; because the soulmate thing is usually predicated on there being only one person in the world that could be such a perfect match for you in every way.

Of course, in a casual sense, "soulmate" has come to mean; "we get along really, really well". That just means you are highly compatible--the soulmate stuff is meaningless or irrelevant.

See, the danger of the soulmate myth, is that if you start having difficulties, or fighting more than usual, etc. etc., there can be this tendency to say, "well, this person must not be my soulmate, ...so I guess we need to break-up/see other people/divorce".

When all that is happening is that your human, fallible relationship is having some difficulties; and you're gonna have to work through them. You are *not* going to be simpatico with someone else on every issue in life.


I'm very glad that you have such an excellent rapport with your husband. I just don't think that "soulmates" has a thing to do with it.

Apologies if that gives offense in any way.
That's okay. We won't have any thought-provoking conversations here if people are offended by every last thing. There is way too much of that over in CWI already!

Maybe Dug can come on later and explain what soulmate means to him.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #28 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 08:58 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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Maybe Dug can come on later and explain what soulmate means to him.
Great!

But what does jld think "soulmate" means?
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post #29 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 09:00 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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Great!

But what does jld think "soulmate" means?
Not sure. It is a term that only Dug uses here.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #30 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 09:02 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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Not sure. It is a term that only Dug uses here.


Thanks for your honesty.
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