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post #61 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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This was mostly tongue in cheek. No offense meant and I hope none received.
No offense at all.. I loved your post !

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post #62 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 01:00 PM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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Thank you for sharing this.

He should have spanked your bratty ass, thrown you over his shoulder and ravaged you until you couldn't walk right! LOL!

Glad you worked it out! You are a brat now and then, aren't you!?
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No offense at all.. I loved your post !
You know I think you two are an awesome couple and I love your story!

People can adapt and change a little at least.

Mrs. C and I both have.

She learned to love UFC and I watch Jane Austen movies with her and we both love it.

Have your wonderful man talk to me if he wants to.

I have coaxed more than one wonderful and passive man into a little more "alpha" without taking anything away from the beautiful man he always was.

You know my story. I was by most standards, a sensational alpha but I learned some very wonderful beta traits.

The road goes both ways. Love and peace to your family!

Your friend,
Conan.
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post #63 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 01:04 PM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

P.S. I have, in occasion, painted my wife's toenails (gasp), don't tell anyone! LOL!!!
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post #64 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 01:16 PM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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P.S. I have, in occasion, painted my wife's toenails (gasp), don't tell anyone! LOL!!!
All right, that's it, you've crossed the line. Hand over your man card, please.


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post #65 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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From SA's post:

Interesting article, and I think it has some great insight. Let me say that what some call soulmate, we call deep compatibility, and we still feel this way after 17 years.

Love at first sight = Potential Soulmates - we experienced this deep attraction (I'd say it was too soon to realistically call it love) on the second or third date. But, at that stage it only indicates that you see strong potential - it does not make it real. Only time can do that.

Love that overcomes challenges = Real-World Soulmates - again, this is a reflection of deep compatibility tested by time and troubles overcome together.

Mrs. MbH found an article yesterday about long term happy and successful relationships. There was one word that cropped up repeatedly for those couples when they described their relationship: EASY. They had a natural compatibility that facilitated communication, mutual respect, and an innate belief that they were there for each other whatever the need, and would actually do what was needed. Sure, they encountered problems, but their deep compatibility made it easier to resolve them, whether they were external or internal to the relationship.

So, when dating or deciding on marriage, ask yourself: is this relationship easy to sustain? If not, it may not be a good choice.
Glad you enjoyed the article and felt it insightful.. ..It was one that still allowed for the term to be used, while explaining it far deeper than most.. basically with strings attached...like the passage of TIME , many shared experiences, throw in a couple valleys too...

Natural compatibility will always make for a smoother ride..that and some chemistry going on! This makes it Easier.. and helps keep the spark lit..

I just found this article, touching on those 2 areas... and how they differ... COMPATIBILITY AND CHEMISTRY IN RELATIONSHIPS

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Compatibility is a natural alignment of lifestyle choices and values between two people. A priest and a stripper have a major incompatibility and I doubt many end up dating each other. That’s compatibility. Put simply, if I value women who are intelligent and educated and I meet a high school dropout who values guys who have big muscles and like to hunt deer, then we have a fundamental incompatibility that will probably never be overcome and we will never date one another.

Compatibility usually corresponds to the long-term potential between two people. High compatibility between people comes from similarities in their lifestyles and values. Educated and liberal people usually date other educated and liberal people. Hedonists usually date other hedonists. Insane religious nuts usually date other insane religious nuts. For no other reason than people of opposite moral values, quite literally, repel each other. And sometimes violently.

Specific examples of what creates strong chemistry are harder to peg. It may be the way someone laughs at your jokes, the questions they ask you about your day, the way you hold each other in bed, or how they help you decorate your new apartment. Chemistry is made up of subtle behaviors and dispositions that positively correspond with the other person. It’s a closed karmic loop. Chemistry is felt immediately and by both parties equally. The most important rule about chemistry is that whatever you’re feeling, he or she is most likely feeling it too. You almost become empaths for one another.

The artist Alex Grey once said, “True love is when two people have pathologies that complement one another.” He was only half joking. High levels of chemistry usually come from opposite yet complementary qualities in people. A girl who is high-strung, energetic and slightly neurotic will have a high degree of chemistry with a guy who is relaxed, mellow and open. Introverts usually have natural chemistry with extroverts. People who are orderly and intense planners often work best with people who are spontaneous and unorganized."

Compatibility and chemistry don’t necessarily always occur together. A relationship with high compatibility but little chemistry is likely to be a boring yet convenient series of meetings and conversations, dry and dull until both parties simply stop caring and drift apart, or they consummate their mutual convenience by getting married and promise themselves a lifetime of simple and asexual companionship. Sadly, this arrangement isn’t uncommon.

Chemistry without compatibility on the other hand, usually leads to disaster. Sometimes it can be as simple as not living in the same part of the world. But usually it’s far more complicated than that. It’s when it feels so right, but you know it’s so wrong...
We've always been on the same page in values, lifestyle, both wanted to live in the country, have kids, same vision all the way, both our fathers were blue collar Truck drivers....our friends mixed well... Probably what works for our Chemistry is - and mentioned above : I am more of the feisty hot head (isn't that obvious)... where he is the laid back easy going type... he seems to get a charge out of that.. likes making fun of me ! and I love that..
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post #66 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 01:34 PM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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Glad you enjoyed the article and felt it insightful.. ..It was one that still allowed for the term to be used, while explaining it far deeper than most.. basically with strings attached...like the passage of TIME , many shared experiences, throw in a couple valleys too...

Natural compatibility will always make for a smoother ride..that and some chemistry going on! This makes it Easier.. and helps keep the spark lit..

I just found this article, touching on those 2 areas... and how they differ... COMPATIBILITY AND CHEMISTRY IN RELATIONSHIPS



We've always been on the same page in values, lifestyle, both wanted to live in the country, have kids, same vision all the way, both our fathers were blue collar Truck drivers....our friends mixed well... Probably what works for our Chemistry is - and mentioned above : I am more of the feisty hot head (isn't that obvious)... where he is the laid back easy going type... he seems to get a charge out of that.. likes making fun of me ! and I love that..
That is great observation. Mrs. C and I have chemistry. We have had it since the instant we met. We are absolutely opposites.

We learned compatibility to make "us" work because our love and passion were too great to deny.
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post #67 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 05:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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I just do not place anyone on a pedestal. What works is some idealized version but the ability to detach and analyze. As a teen, I let all the hormones do the talking. I had two sisters pursue me and I picked the hotter one even though the other was more compatible, more sane. The hotter one was a recovering cocaine addict since 15 and let people have sex with her for drugs. All I could see was her beauty and not the inner scars and the lack of common interest. I placed her on a pedestal in the beginning and let her hurt me more than I should have. She kept pushing and then pulling me like a leashed pet depending on her whims. Sure, she cared about me, but not enough to treat me well. Luckily she was he one that let me go eventually when she moved at 18 because I could of have not.

Thinking about it, I was in love with her attractiveness, that high knowing she was the one that pursued me and gave me that initial ego boost, and sex. It was a superficial relationship without any real connection. We did not talk, we did not know each other well since we both had our guards up.

With my current partner, with communication being the number one priority, she can read me sometimes and knows my flaws. Recently my mother passed away and I was detaching unknowingly and she knows me on a deep, emotional level to know I was not handling it well and call me out on my behavior. She showed up, not leaving me alone and she grieved with me. It makes me love her even more, and yet, we will not place each other on a pedestal. If I kept neglecting her, I could of lost that because with enough pain, it would be healthy to give up and in healthy state of mind, I would want her to give up on me if it is ever detrimental towards her. She supported me, and stood by me, but I had to make the choice to help myself and accept that support. Otherwise, her actions would have been fruitless.

Some level of idealism but not lose the reality of what is real. Perception is always faulty and looking at the whole picture, of past behavior is an indication of future outcomes. Seeing whether we can learn from that or not. Unfortunately, I did not learn until my early twenties. Got hooked again by a hot cheerleader that was abused by her parents, sexually assaulted, abused by her ex-bf. Attraction only gets the foot in the door and getting to actually know the person and the constant work it takes to maintain that level of connection. It is easy in the beginning due to that initial honeymoon phase.
Thank you for sharing your experiences .....I think a lot of men have this ailment when they are young due to their insatiable sex drives.. the focus becomes pleasing the guy downstairs, an ongoing rush of those feel good hormones with a hot body... this played enough of a role in your "coming of age" situation to blind you to the big picture. I'd say the same happened with my Father, my Mom wasn't into drugs, no addictions .. but he was blinded by sex - and they had very little compatibility...it all came out after they married.

You said you didn't really talk, both had your guards up... how does one place a woman on a pedestal without knowing them emotionally...add to the fact she treated you badly and was really messed up! How is there any admirable affection towards this? This is baffling to me....just too many negatives....I guess that's why Experts say a teen brain (I assume you were very young) isn't fully developed till we reach our mid 20's...

Just another example... how Physical attraction & sex can blind people into something that has little substance.. Sounds you had options, her sister wanted you too..

As much as I may come off as someone who could get caught out in idealism to blind me.. looking back.. I was terribly level headed ... I never wavered in what would be ultimately be GOOD for me, healthy for my life... .. I had enough examples around me, from choice my mother made after the divorce with user men (all about sex, nothing more, no emotion, no care), watching a couple close friends fall pregnant to losers, never there for the baby, gone in the dust..... I met my husband very young.. but at the same time...I was cautiously open to other boys as my dear Grandma, my greatest mentor, always told me to Not marry the 1st one, but "play the field" a little (that didn't mean sex in her day)...

My husband was a little worried in our early yrs as he knew there were others who wanted me, I would still talk to them (a couple were always at my best friends house -couldn't get away from that) ... then there was one I met at a school function, he wanted to call me.. he was drop dead gorgeous, HE was very tempting!... I did allow him to call me a few times.. this is where I had to make a choice..

I remember reasoning ... "I can't let go of what we have, just cause this guy is HOT"...and many times I said this ..."no one would treat me as wonderful as my boyfriend does"....I was rational.. I believe I made the best choice for my future... I didn't know all that much about this other guy... but I'd bet he tried calling lots of girls.. He was just too good looking... I chose my best friend over him... we always had the emotional, we talked & shared EVERYTHING..... some would say this goes against passion or something.. but I feel it feeds into compatibility , where there is an assurance of it -when a couple can share every part of themselves like that.. even that I met this guy & talked to him on the phone.... I never lied to my husband about anything.. or kept things from him.. this also built our trust early on.

I ended up giving the hot guy my girlfriends # ...then the 4 of us went to the Prom together !.. Funny how that worked out.. . looking back.. I weighed everything, all the pros & cons.. this comes back to all that "thinking" I do... I also prayed along the way....it's surely kept me from some heartache or falling into things I may have regretted after the fact..


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Last edited by SimplyAmorous; 04-11-2017 at 05:51 AM.
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post #68 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 08:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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The ones listed above are not going on in my marriage. However, when you have been betrayed then you are forced to give up some of your idealisms. Reprinted below is part of a post that I made on another section of TAM

You are forced to give up some of the idealism that you may have had about marriage. Some of these ideals are:

That you can always trust your spouse to never stab you in the back.

That your spouse will always have your best interest at heart.

That your spouse has very strong integrity and strong beliefs that they will hold on to no matter what.
What you shared here.. I noticed many similar feelings in those (2) Romantic threads I did.. how people have LOST this... some felt it was a necessary maturing ... one poster said "I’d consider myself a hopeless romantic.... then I was betrayed. “It can’t be separated from who I am”... um.. Bull. It can be ripped out of you bit by bloody bit. "...

Another poster warned me to brace myself if/ when our hopeless romantic son gets dumped & has to pick it up his heart off the floor.... Boy he had that right!!.. then added this response "The only thing I did wish was that I had the opportunity to experience heartbreak earlier in dating, getting your heart broken for the first time at 22/23, I think it has longer lasting effects. How you deal with people and deal with trust changes completely."

Not that I thought all that much about these things from another perspective all through the years.. coming here, reading so many experiences has allowed me to see just how MUCH our experiences play a role in how we love, how difficult it can be to trust for some...

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Correct Idealism is a great goal to strive towards and those that can live up to the idealism make for a very huge bond in relationships; very positive!
Glad you stopped in on my thread @Mr Blunt ! I think it's all in how people interpret words too.. the word "Idealism" is associated with being unrealistic.. "dreamer" probably comes to mind too..



Then there are words like "Selfishness"...



It's hard for me to grasp @Ynot 's definition so easily ... even if there IS truth to it (not denying that we need to care about ourselves!).... I just asked my husband what comes to mind when he hears the word "Selfish".. his answered : "when people don't think of another person's feelings"... it's difficult to un-program that, and start using that word as a positive.. that's probably how many see the word "Idealism" too, they only see the unrealistic "dreamy" aspects of it..

Was reading an article this morning that started out .... "In my practice, I often treat couples who have highly idealistic expectations about marriage. Does that sound contradictory? After all, idealism is romantic, and you need romance for a great marriage. If marriage isn’t just a partnership, but a meeting of souls, then something must be deeply wrong when you have petty disagreements. Soul mates never argue about where the thermostat should be set."...I'm thinking.. seriously?.. I would laugh at such a notion.... even though I like the word "soul mates"...I have ALWAYS and forever felt the best of relationships, friendships, family members ... fight now & then!@# but they get over it - Heck yeah! ...so I never ascribed to that definition personally.. this perfection thing.. it's hard for me to imagine anyone could think like that..

I'm all for seeing the imperfections clearly and finding a way to accept them, this comes with the whole package.. we learn to love some of the quirks, would even miss these things if the person was taken from us.. I tried to explain that in this old thread..

The "Perfect Marriage" does not exist- but Beauty can be found in our Imperfections

Whenever I hear of a couple who never argues / no fighting ....I automatically think to myself ..."they must not be communicating either"... it just doesn't make sense to me...everyone disagrees sometimes.. I'm not one of those who feels it's always helpful to STUFF IT DOWN, sometimes we need to pick our battles -TRUE.. but if it is something that has the potential to cause us Resentment down the road.. NO!....it needs to be communicated and worked through for both to find some mutual peace with it...work it out..

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post #69 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 10:49 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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It's hard for me to grasp @Ynot 's definition so easily ... even if there IS truth to it (not denying that we need to care about ourselves!).... I just asked my husband what comes to mind when he hears the word "Selfish".. his answered : "when people don't think of another person's feelings"... it's difficult to un-program that, and start using that word as a positive.. that's probably how many see the word "Idealism" too, they only see the unrealistic "dreamy" aspects of it..

That is because you and your husband have accepted the "societal" definition of selfishness. If you don't think about your partners feelings you are being GREEDY not selfish. If that person is important to you and you consider their feelings you are being selfish (which is good) But if you don't consider your own feelings as well you are being selfless (which is bad).

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post #70 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 11:53 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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He suddenly got very quiet... then his face turned cold like...the wheels were turning.. he looks at me & asks with the most serious of faces...."Have I done this, has it all been a LIE.. was it all just in my head ?"..... he was processing these thoughts I unloaded on him.... the seriousness continued....his countenance almost numb... he made a few comments reasoning this out.. that if I am "nothing special", if I am just like every other woman, what is there... it was like it changed EVERYTHING , his perception of me was now TAINTED...he questioned himself / us...

I asked him if he still loved me...his answer was "I don't know"... he said he didn't know anything anymore... In all our years (35 so far)..I have never experienced this feeling , he was scaring me, like I opened a Pandora's box I could not shut again .... I start to feel sick to my stomach ...a rush of sadness / dread washes over me...
I had one of these moments to but the result was way different. I used to tell my wife I loved her all the time but she started saying stuff like "I love you sometimes".. To me that might as well been the day we stopped being married and we became just two individuals stuck living together. Since that day I have never told my wife I loved her and never will again, simply because I don't. I can't love someone temporarily or "sometimes". Maybe we were nothing more than a lie? It's saying stupid stuff like that that absolutely kills love between two people. I never wanted to know what she meant by that, as long as it came out of her mouth, that was enough for me.


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post #71 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-12-2017, 05:25 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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I had one of these moments to but the result was way different. I used to tell my wife I loved her all the time but she started saying stuff like "I love you sometimes".. To me that might as well been the day we stopped being married and we became just two individuals stuck living together. Since that day I have never told my wife I loved her and never will again, simply because I don't. I can't love someone temporarily or "sometimes". Maybe we were nothing more than a lie? It's saying stupid stuff like that that absolutely kills love between two people. I never wanted to know what she meant by that, as long as it came out of her mouth, that was enough for me.
If I said something like that to my husband, he would laugh, kiss my forehead, and say, "I love you all the time."

Not taking things personally, and responding with confidence and humor, can really lower stress.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #72 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-12-2017, 06:19 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

I don't believe in the concept of soul mates.

There's the chemistry, connection, shared outlooks and compatibility yet there's also the dynamic between us. Dynamics of a relationship is similar to dynamics of music. It provides a language that's felt and interpreted. It's what inspires intensity, playfulness, meaning, and becomes the flow. The flow my husband and I share is something I couldn't imagine experiencing with another. Although I don't doubt that rationally, it is possible for both of us.

Having one another on a pedestal is not healthy for our dynamic. Trusting one another to express our truth, is. That's where learning and growing as people, as a couple, occurs. At times we believe in each others capabilities and see each other in a light that we wouldn't see in ourselves. Viewing one another this way has inspired and encouraged both of us to try different things. Knowing the person you love, admire, trust, respect and desire believes in you and has your back, is to be cherished.

I affectionately call him Batman... acknowledging that Batman is a hero in my eyes while still being flawed. Of course it's because of his flaws that he became Batman in the first place.

Music belongs in a place with hearts beating and brains dreaming and people falling in love. - J.Buckley
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post #73 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-12-2017, 07:45 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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If I said something like that to my husband, he would laugh, kiss my forehead, and say, "I love you all the time."

Not taking things personally, and responding with confidence and humor, can really lower stress.
Maybe you're right but she did it all the time for awhile and I though it was meant to send a message. I can't just laugh off something like that. If I were more confident in our marriage, maybe I could. The truth is, our marriage was always not stable and thing like this could signal more serious things were coming as indeed they were. When she started doing this was when she changed her attitude and became very negative.

I do like what you said, it gives me a fresh perspective. I wish I could just laugh things like this off. I guess I'm just so used to her trying to make me feel horrible I over-react sometimes.

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post #74 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-12-2017, 07:46 AM
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

I have a perhaps different view on this idealism, 100 years from now, about your marriage, whom will remember? Whom will care? This is one of the realizations I have come to about marriage and a lot of other things. I firmly believe that we are here in this world to leave something behind that makes it a better place for the next, and marriage doesn't really play much into that.
Simply getting married, having children and living together till death does its part just isn't enough in my opinion. We are here to do more than that, humans are too complex to just simply drive the propagation of its species via reproduction, and evolution is just too dang slow to wait for....so that leaves us to make the world a better place than we came into it.....

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post #75 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 07:21 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?

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I have a perhaps different view on this idealism, 100 years from now, about your marriage, whom will remember? Whom will care? This is one of the realizations I have come to about marriage and a lot of other things. I firmly believe that we are here in this world to leave something behind that makes it a better place for the next, and marriage doesn't really play much into that.
Simply getting married, having children and living together till death does its part just isn't enough in my opinion. We are here to do more than that, humans are too complex to just simply drive the propagation of its species via reproduction, and evolution is just too dang slow to wait for....so that leaves us to make the world a better place than we came into it.....
I feel this way too....what else is there... hopefully we weren't born just to be a selfish prick who makes everyone else's life miserable....

I'd like to believe we make some sort of difference in other's lives... the Job I have now.. I take care of people.. it's nothing glamorous but there is a need.. Then there are those who make a profound difference...take Jonas Salk for example...the medical researcher / virologist who discovered and developed the 1st polio vaccine...then some of us have a much smaller role, it may only be a dot in our little circle .... maybe it's only family, a handful of friends, that we've made an impact, making others lives brighter...just being here..

Personally.. I just really enjoy being married.. maybe it would be better to say I just really ENJOY spending time with my husband and family ...

The 1st time I seen a portrait hanging in a store with this saying many yrs ago , I grabbed a pen out of my purse & jotted down this saying... it was very beautiful.. but I wanted to personalize it..it spoke to me how THIS IS WHAT MATTERS ..... so I blew up a family picture, myself giving 2 of our sons a horsey back ride...had my husband drill holes in a frame.. where I hung the saying with these dangling hearts, this has been on our living room wall for the last 15 yrs...

The "100 yrs from now" can be looked upon in a variety of ways....some may see Medical advances, finding a cure for cancer, be a social activist - changing the world in a profound & lasting way, these people have worked very hard, complete dedication- driven for a cause, they deserve our highest praise.... and some may have a much smaller role.. we see family, our little circle.. and we're contend with just that.. I wouldn't want to feel it is unworthy, even if our presence here is not really noticed by many...

This would describe me... that was more my dream growing up.. just to have a family of my own... Of course the Husband is a HUGE part of that, the influence he's had in our lives too..



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