Why does he do this?

pigpen · 09-14-2008, 07:51 AM

I could use some help.
I don't get what my husband wants.

Let me give you just a little back ground.
We have been married for 18 years. We have always struggled in our marriage and I have thought about leaving my husband many times. He has been a jackass and I have too. So we have not been close in an interpersonal way.
We are, however, decent social companions and so if we ignore the marriage we get along mostly OK.
I have stayed because of financial reasons, because of my son and because if I dont think about my marriage as something to fix its not bad. Just not close or personal.
We have not had sex in 8 years. I tried to get him interested for 2 years after my son was born and he would sometimes be interested. But he never approached me and I just gave up even asking. I am 41.

Any way, since we have called a truce we have been closer. Not by much. We simply don't argue. We do not have sex, or kiss. We do have the occasional friendly hug. But we don't go out as a couple (have no done so in 10 years). We have agreed to do our best in our marriage and this keeps us neutral. I am happier because I am not an emotional wreck.

Any way, when we first stopped having sex altogether I was in good shape and was quite the hotty. So I know my physical appearance was not distasteful.

But I never figured out why he would not have sex and he would never tell me even though I would ask him point blank.

Here is the question -
We were discussing sex in some general and non personal way (probably some article on the web) and he says
"yeah, I have been thinking about that. How would you feel if I bought some condoms. You know, just in case the situation would ever come up".

Now I know this guy has been faithful - at least physically. I know he is not close to anyone.

But what the hell is he thinking? We don't kiss. We have no romance.

I don't want to make my situation worse than it is so I just looked at him and said "it takes a lot more work than that."

He kind of skulks off saying "yeah, I thought you would say that."

I think he is just trying to press his luck to see what he can get away with. But why in the hell is doing this now? What does he really want?

Red danger signs are flashing before my eyes and I fail to understand what is going on. Is this male communication thing?

Thanks for the help!

draconis · 09-14-2008, 05:06 PM

He was making a small effort forward before you killed it. It was a slight way to ask about sex after all these years. Maybe he has a medical issue as well. I think the only way for you to get hat you want is to communicate and both of you seem bad at it so I would suggest a councilor.

draconis

MarkTwain · 09-14-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by draconis

He was making a small effort forward before you killed it.

I beg you to put your ego to one side and apologise to him. Obviously you have built up a wall of resentment about being neglected, but he is finally wanting to do something about it. You speak of romance, but he had guts to say what he said, isn't that romantic?

pigpen · 09-14-2008, 07:19 PM

Do men think this is romantic?
To ignore someone for so long and then ask if they should by condoms?
Its not that I am resentful.

But after so long we are strangers sexually.
I think he treated the situation without thought or respect for me.

But this is good to know that men think this is OK as a line of thought. It gives me some idea what may be going in his head.

Quite frankly I found the question a bit humiliating and degrading. I thought it showed that he did not care for me but that I was conveniently available.

Do men really think all it takes is "can I buy some condoms"?

That is so low. It is worse than prostitution. Its expecting something for nothing at all.

I have nothing to apologize for. I am not resentful of past hurts. But I am working in the now. The now says we havent had sex for 8 years and there is no long a "right of demand" in place.

We are at square one in that area and its well within my right to expect the same sort of care and respect anyone would expect at square one. Just because there is a piece of paper and a child between us does not mean he has any right to just expect me to open my legs like a prostitute.

I have more respect for myself than that.

pigpen · 09-14-2008, 07:33 PM

Draconis - do you really think putting the cart before the horse is "making some small effort?" How about an intimate conversation - sweet words and some emotional closeness before we jump into sex? eh?
How about making the relationship emotionally close enough for sex to actually happen?
And THEN broaching the idea?

Your post makes me so mad!
I have no obligation to provide sex to this man who happens to live in my house. Its not about ego. Its about human respect.
I am not a prostitute. i am a human being.
Discussing politics calmly at dinner is not close enough to even discuss sex let alone do it.
Discussing some generallity of sex is not close enough to have sex.
How about some basic arrousal?
Do you think I should put my ego aside pretend that arousal is not important?
pltthhth!

pigpen · 09-14-2008, 07:44 PM

MarkTwain - I have nothing to apologize for.

draconis · 09-14-2008, 11:45 PM

Well if he can't and you will not get there by baby steps then I think without counciling you are dooming yourselves to the situation you are in. To quote you pltthhth!

draconis

827Aug · 09-15-2008, 12:01 AM

I'm sorry to say this, BUT my separated husband and I are closer than the two of you. And I complain about how distant he is towards me. By all mean, go to counseling.

pigpen · 09-15-2008, 12:21 AM

By all means baby steps are the way to go.
How about affection?
I guess I am missing something.
Counseling is a given for me.
He chooses not to go.

I dont get why you all seem to think my attitude is messed up on this one and I really would like to figure it out.

It just seems so sudden, out of place and yes, disrespectful to jump into a conversation about birth control.

Draconis - you said baby steps. This isnt a baby step. This is huge when you have been celibate for 8 years.
How is this a small thing?

What should I have said?
Sex is out of the question without more emotional intimacy.
What could I have said?
Oh do buy those condoms? I wont have sex with you right now but you never know what may happen?

That would have been an out and out lie. We need so much more than a box of condoms.

Should I have said - I will consider it if we are closer?
He would have seen this as an insult too.

There is absolutely nothing I can think of that would have been appropriate to say in this situation.

Frankly I am really disheartened that my question generated flak right off the bat. I really dont get it at all. I was shocked by his question and shocked by the few responses I have recieved so far.

What would a man have wanted his wife to say in this situation?
If you were my husband posing that question - what do you expect out of it?
What would you have wanted me to do?

Deejo · 09-15-2008, 12:31 AM

In this regard, Draconis is correct; if neither of you are open to, or capable of acknowledging the efforts of the other, to thaw the cold-war, nothing will change. If you cannot find an effective means to communicate with one another - where you are now is as good as it will ever get, and it will only continue to degrade.

That said, here is my piece, being in a similar situation:

Quote:

How about making the relationship emotionally close enough for sex to actually happen?
And THEN broaching the idea?

This is exactly what should happen. But, it is unrealistic. You aren't emotionally close. You don't even sound friendly towards one another.

His comment was stupid. It sounds more to me like he was actually setting himself up for exactly the response he got. My wife does this too. It's her way of being passive aggressive.

Ask him what he wants his marriage to be. Ask him to describe it in detail. Write it down if that makes it easier. You should do the same. Then share them, and hopefully there will be at least ONE thing in common between your lists. Decide to work at, and meet that desire or need for one another. If there is no common ground, or he refuses to even participate, you should focus your energy in another direction.

draconis · 09-15-2008, 04:45 AM

Okay I don't want to make you irate I just want a clarification here on a few things.

You are still with your husband

1) Because you are "decent social companions "
2) You have stayed for "financial reasons"
3) "because of [you] son"
4) You don't think your marriage is that bad.

Okay #1 Because you are "decent social companions " But [you] don't go out as a couple (have no done so in 10 years).

#2 You have stayed for "financial reasons" Okay I'll give you that on your word.
#3 "because of [you] son" Personally I don't see the benefit to your son other than you will know a step parent will not be treating him badly. But he will grow up in a loveles house and will fail to know how to treat a lady. Further does it change things when he moves out?
#4 You don't think your marriage is that bad. Okay so no communication, no sincerity, no intimate touch is all okay because you don't argue?
In another thread you said " I have tried hard to figure out how to make this work. but I hate every minute of it"
"Fix? That is obviously no optional at this point in the game." "I am sincerely tired of arguing and so give up."
multiple problems

You asked "Is this male communication thing? " The answer is no and to think that way is sexist. Does you husband have a problem communicating, from what you described sure. But you lack empathy "He kind of skulks off", "yes my husband is lazy." "he is a parked car facing the wrong direction with a stalled transmission" "
my husband is an a-hole" "gee you are lame, {to husband on thought} " "I now recognize that he is disrespectful" "And tells me he would get it done if I didnt nag all the time. <eyeroll>" "I think he is a prude."

The way I see it it takes two. You had the choice to engage him in a meaningful conversation about a topic that can help both of you. Instead you fired back at him knowing only worring about "you[r] situation."

You then asked for help understanding. I responded. I suggested to communicate and maybe use a councilor and I though he was trying to get back the sexual part of the relationship.

You fired back at me and MT for not being cheerleaders for you. You think you did nothing wrong and he is the only one to blame. Further you continue to use sexist remarks classifying all men together. Yet you find nothing wrong with being sexist either. You also have the same sexism in other threads, "(well I know) you can wait for infinity for your man to "get it". He wont right now."

Egoism~the habit of valuing everything only in reference to one's personal interest; selfishness.

MT may not have been going there as I think he meant ego as in protecting or thinking of oneself. Instead treating the marriage like a partnership.

So I came back at it to again help you and explain it another way.

Guess what I get blasted again! WHy because you don't understand that it will take a thousand steps to get to where you need to go. He made the first one and you blasted him back 1000 more. Then you blast everyone for not siding with you. This isn't about sides. It is about the lack of communication and empathy in your relationship.

To answer your last question

Quote:

If you were my husband posing that question - what do you expect out of it?

Frankly I wouldn't stay in a loveless relationship, I have to much respect for myself.

You know for the most part your first 24-28 posts were well balanced, helpful and insightful. Then they turned against men, against anyone that seemed not to have sympathy towards you, and anyone not against your husband. You have not painted him as a nice man. I understand that your family will not help you out, and his family gives you grief. I am sure that the relationship is stressful, and has hurt your self esteem. But the people on the forums are not against you. But we do have our opinions. That is all we have to offer.

draconis

MarkTwain · 09-15-2008, 06:57 AM

pigpen-

When I made my reply, I had not read your previous threads. Now that I have, I understand more of your viewpoint. It seem that he never took the time to warm you up even when you did have sex.

So by mentioning condoms, you probably thought, "here we go again", sex yes, but no intimacy...

However, I really want both of you to succeed, so here is a thought. A man far wiser than I taught me that people often attract other people into their lives that mirror exactly what they feel in themselves.

In your earlier threads, you mention your frustration at not having had sex for 8 years. With the "condom incident" it appears that the situation now has the possibility to come out of the deep freeze.

I thought that is what you wanted? The title and start of this thread is "why does he do this - I could use some help.
I don't get what my husband wants". Based on the mirror principle, I could well ask "Why are you doing this, I don't get what you want"

But... you are right. When you defrost an item from the freezer, it comes out just how it went in, maybe worse. So your hubby knows nothing of how to make sex tender... and his condom suggestion perhaps shows that. But you have to begin from where you are. If you are smart, (and I think you are), you could have him eating out of your hand. I am happy to suggest a few tricks to try.

I never meant to seem down on you by the way, I really like your style of writing, you have a punchy way of talking that makes me respect you, and I can see why your hubby has stuck around even though you both argue.

pigpen · 09-15-2008, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by draconis

Okay I don't want to make you irate I just want a clarification here on a few things.

You are still with your husband

1) Because you are "decent social companions "
2) You have stayed for "financial reasons"
3) "because of [you] son"
4) You don't think your marriage is that bad.

I said when I am thinking about it - its not so bad. What I I was trying to get across is that if I think about my marriage, my LIFE
isn't terrible. But I was not trying to imply that everything is hunky dory. Just not completely, insanely tense all of the time.

Okay #1 Because you are "decent social companions " But [you] don't go out as a couple (have no done so in 10 years).

"social companions" means people who can talk to one another so long as the conversation is not personal. We do not discuss finaces. I choose not to because when we do it turns ugly. We dont talk about US. Again, everything turns ugly. We do talk about our son, our families and anything neutral. When we do this we get along fairly well.
#3 "because of [you] son" Personally I don't see the benefit to your son other than you will know a step parent will not be treating him badly. But he will grow up in a loveles house and will fail to know how to treat a lady. Further does it change things when he moves out?
His house is not loveless towards him. He gets the benefit of someone always being at home. Not being raised in day care. Someone always helping with his homework and being there when he needs a friend. He is very loved by both parents and we make sure we dont fight in front of him. I dont talk about his dad to him.

#4 You don't think your marriage is that bad. Okay so no communication, no sincerity, no intimate touch is all okay because you don't argue?
No its not OK. But the alternatives are pretty grim when you are a single parent who cant earn enough to feed the family on your own. I can not afford a house on my own. My son gets stability. I dont want to drag him through what my mother put us kids through. Multiple marriages, working 16 hour days when she was trying to keep it together on her own. Leaving us without day care because she couldnt afford it.

In another thread you said " I have tried hard to figure out how to make this work. but I hate every minute of it"
"Fix? That is obviously no optional at this point in the game." "I am sincerely tired of arguing and so give up."
multiple problems
Why are you quoting this back to me? What part is not understandable?

You asked "Is this male communication thing? " The answer is no and to think that way is sexist.
By "male communication thing" i was only thinking along the lines of "men are from mars," etc. I am not sexist. But I am sincerely confused by what is expected of me.

Does you husband have a problem communicating, from what you described sure. But you lack empathy "He kind of skulks off", "yes my husband is lazy." "he is a parked car facing the wrong direction with a stalled transmission" "
my husband is an a-hole" "gee you are lame, {to husband on thought} " "I now recognize that he is disrespectful" "And tells me he would get it done if I didnt nag all the time. <eyeroll>" "I think he is a prude."
Again - why are you quoting back to me? I am honestly angry at times. But a few posts written when I am not at my emotional best does not mean I lack compassion. it means I have been and sometimes am angry.

The way I see it it takes two. You had the choice to engage him in a meaningful conversation about a topic that can help both of you. Instead you fired back at him knowing only worring about "you[r] situation."
What meaningful conversation starter could I use? That is the whole point of the original post. I did not know what to say. i did not "fire back". But I had no idea what I was supposed to say. What would have been the best thing to say?
Try as I might I just have no idea.

You then asked for help understanding. I responded. I suggested to communicate and maybe use a councilor and I though he was trying to get back the sexual part of the relationship.

You fired back at me and MT for not being cheerleaders for you.
I thought your comments were pretty insensitive. I obviously hit a nerve. I am here honestly trying to gain understanding. I am flawed but by god I am trying!

Egoism~the habit of valuing everything only in reference to one's personal interest; selfishness.
And this is exactly how I felt about the condom question.

MT may not have been going there as I think he meant ego as in protecting or thinking of oneself. Instead treating the marriage like a partnership.

So I came back at it to again help you and explain it another way.

Guess what I get blasted again! WHy because you don't understand that it will take a thousand steps to get to where you need to go. He made the first one and you blasted him back 1000 more. Then you blast everyone for not siding with you. This isn't about sides. It is about the lack of communication and empathy in your relationship.
I felt blasted for asking a sincere question. I felt on edge with my husbands question and sincerely confused by it all. I blasted back because I felt blasted upon.

To answer your last question

Frankly I wouldn't stay in a loveless relationship, I have to much respect for myself.

You know for the most part your first 24-28 posts were well balanced, helpful and insightful. Then they turned against men, against anyone that seemed not to have sympathy towards you, and anyone not against your husband. You have not painted him as a nice man. I understand that your family will not help you out, and his family gives you grief. I am sure that the relationship is stressful, and has hurt your self esteem. But the people on the forums are not against you. But we do have our opinions. That is all we have to offer.

draconis

No one can know what they would do in another's place. Its easy to say what you would or would not do. But its not sp easy to see neuances or explain 18 years of marriage on a forum.

MarkTwain-
You are right.
What I want - Instead of conversations about condoms, I want hand holding and kisses.

There is not anything wrong with wanting basic respect. And starting slow means not missing the steps.

Draconis - I see your point of view. I am thinking on these things. I am thinking on my husbands point of view too. That is why I came to the forum with my question.

Given my situation I would rather try to build love than continue as we have been. If I could afford the 150 an hour for a counselor I would be there so fast. But right now its not an option. Right now I have to make do by reading what I can and looking for help here.

I have to say that "it takes more work than that" does not have to be a conversation killer. He could have said "what do you have in mind?" or "what do you mean?"

I did not show my husband my ire or put him down because I DO recognize that to him, his question, was trying.

We have reached a companionable truce. Meaning we get along if we dont bring up painful topics. Meaning we can share a meal with our son and its not painful or tense.

But we have a long way to go.

Draconis you mentioned a "loveless marriage". I don't know that my marriage IS loveless. But is not healthy.

When we got married I had all kinds of ideas of what marriage is. i dont have those same ideas. I need new ones. I AM trying.

I have to go to work.

MarkTwain · 09-15-2008, 09:19 AM

pigpen-
What do you want right now? Do you want advice on how to get the sex thing back on the road, (with a sprinkling of romance thrown in) or not?

By the way, if ever I quote your own words back at you, it's just for clarification, not as a put down. I like you anyway.

Chopblock · 09-15-2008, 10:57 AM

---He was making a small effort forward before you killed it.---

Your pride is to blame here. Its like if he doesn't express interest in the exact words, the exact way, the exact place, and the exact time that you want him to, that he is failing.

The hostile way you are responding to people that are trying to help you, and the constant assertions that "you owe him nothing" make it seem like you have a guilty conscience.

---Do men really think all it takes is "can I buy some condoms"?---

Again, you are choosing to focus on the literal meaning, vs the "real" meaning of what he asked you. You then go on to make several defensive claims of owing him nothing, and him having no right, such as:

---I have no obligation to provide sex to this man who happens to live in my house.---

Wow... ok that "my house" is especially cold, and I suspect inaccurate since the FIRST REASON you list for staying is "financial".

Imagine him saying the same to you, but replace "sex" with "emotional support" or "financial support". I bet you are thinking "oh thats not the same". You're wrong, its EXACTLY the same.

---You think you did nothing wrong and he is the only one to blame.---

This, at the end of the day, is one of the biggest problems in this situation. You are CHOOSING to see his actions as wronging you, instead of an attempt at communication that they are.

Before you blow me off, just consider the following in entirety...

You need to go up to him, apologize for being so short, and saying that the only reason you were so short was that he caught you off guard. You should tell him that you ABSOLUTELY think that the idea of him buying condoms "just in case" is a GREAT idea, AND (and this is where you get to plug YOUR wants) that if you guys can also work on the emotional connection, "just in case" could be pretty soon.