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post #31 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 08:33 AM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

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Originally Posted by Atholk View Post
So lose the weight. All the counseling in the world won't change her lack of attraction to you into attraction.

Lose the weight.


Lose the weight.


Lose the weight.
I have lost the weight. Married at 195, gained up to 290, weight now at 213. I will never be a flat belly or body builder and frankly I should not have to be. Hard to stay motivated when you lose that much weight for your wife, and you still dont do it for her.

Would it be ok if I stopped thinking she is attractive because her hair is turning grey, or because she has gained weight, along with some wrinkles and scars over the years? I submitt to you that I would be pretty superficial if I did. She is beautiful to me, and I desire her inspite of any changes in her outer appearence. I will always feel this way because I love her in a way that is clearly different than she loves me.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe if I was dating right now there would be no one that would find me attractive. But I do not believe that. Btw, turned down last night, headache of course.

Are there women that rarely have headaches? I have about 2 a year. Maybe it is just a man thing.
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post #32 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 10:31 AM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

The point is, you are not creating the 'love' in her that makes her want to please you, whether she wants it or not. That's not a criticism, but a valid point.

Women have to CARE about their man to want to do it. They care by being in a relationship that feeds their soul. If you are Love Busting her, no amount of pleasing her will ever make her want you.

Bottom line, you have to LEARN what she is thinking. Somehow. You have to understand her. That usually requires communication.

So for now, I'd be spending my time working on communication, NOT Love Busting, meeting her Emotional Needs, and quit hyping on whether or not you get turned down. For now.

Note: If she has mental issues, such as past abuse, this won't necessarily work because she'll have demons she has to face. Again, though, it's up to you to determine this, by learning more about her.
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post #33 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 12:39 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

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The point is, you are not creating the 'love' in her that makes her want to please you, whether she wants it or not. That's not a criticism, but a valid point.

Women have to CARE about their man to want to do it. They care by being in a relationship that feeds their soul. If you are Love Busting her, no amount of pleasing her will ever make her want you.

Bottom line, you have to LEARN what she is thinking. Somehow. You have to understand her. That usually requires communication.

So for now, I'd be spending my time working on communication, NOT Love Busting, meeting her Emotional Needs, and quit hyping on whether or not you get turned down. For now.

Note: If she has mental issues, such as past abuse, this won't necessarily work because she'll have demons she has to face. Again, though, it's up to you to determine this, by learning more about her.

so she gets to sit and watch him go to work on making her feel good and then she might want to be intimate? what do you think she should do during this time?
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post #34 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 01:00 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

It depends on what HAS been going on. LIke I said, if she has mental issues, it's a whole other ball of wax. But if she has withdrawn because he's been a typical male who doesn't realize a woman has to be tended to the way a woman NEEDS to be tended to, and she now has no feelings for him, it's up to him to balance the scales.
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post #35 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 01:30 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

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It depends on what HAS been going on. LIke I said, if she has mental issues, it's a whole other ball of wax. But if she has withdrawn because he's been a typical male who doesn't realize a woman has to be tended to the way a woman NEEDS to be tended to, and she now has no feelings for him, it's up to him to balance the scales.

i'm not going to do the typical point counter point thing with you. but you have said volumes by using the term "typical male" and by stating that a woman needs to be tended to and its up to him to balance the scales, i think alot of women should learn how to tend to their husbands and quit playing the victim role.
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post #36 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 02:23 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

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It depends on what HAS been going on. LIke I said, if she has mental issues, it's a whole other ball of wax. But if she has withdrawn because he's been a typical male who doesn't realize a woman has to be tended to the way a woman NEEDS to be tended to, and she now has no feelings for him, it's up to him to balance the scales.
I dont think she is mental, but I do think she battles some depression. We have a son with special needs and two others that, though they are healthy, are much more of a handful. I wonder if she has some past issues. She has an uncle that she spent a lot of time with that is now in jail for child molesting. Several of her cousins were victims but she swears she cannot remember anything even remotely inappropriately happening.

All that said, I am not a typical male. I waited until I was married before I had sex for peats sake. I treat her like a queen. I get up with the kids and let her sleep in, I cook almost every meal, I clean the house, I am the sole provider for the family, I do not lose my temper or even get upset that often. I do it all. And yet, somehow it comes back on me to do even more. The bar is set so high that I just dont think I can do it. I cant stop drinking, or beating her, or yelling at her, or sleeping around.

There just isnt much more I can do. I tried counseling, I did everything that was suggested. She could not even send me a note or email once a week just to let me know she was thinking about me. And I understand it, if she does not feel that way toward me then sure it is going to be a chore to do. But I read all the notes she shared with another man, and all the time she made to email him and tell him how much she missed him not to mention the side of her that I did not even know existed.

I will do the LB and EN questionaires, I have them printed out. But again, it will be me trying to do that much more and she will not have it in her to do.

The thing is, this all just comes off as a giant whine fest to her and here on the boards. I love her. I do not believe she will ever be unfaithful again. She does treat me better now, and we do spend time together, quality and physical. As I said, our household is not destructive to our children in anyway, and divorce is not an option I will ever choose unless she is unfaithful again.

I just wish she would work harder at it you know? I wish she would listen to a counselor. I wish she would read the one book I asked her to read. I wish she would, even one time, whisper in my ear that she wanted me. She says she wishes I felt better about myself, but I feel great about myself. The only place I struggle is with her. She is the one that told me I am not attractive to her, but I am married to her, she is the one person that can give me that confidence. That can look over my emotional and physical needs. I am not allowed to go outside our marriage for that.

I guess that is enough for now. I really do appreciate the advise, and getting this out of my system does help. There is no one I else I can share this with.
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post #37 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 03:32 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

Ok, then, I will tell you something I see over and over and over again, when it comes to the typical female (see, okeydokie? I am not discriminating!).

Women need their man to be strong. Yes, they want him to care and help and share the load. They do NOT want him to CARRY THE ENTIRE LOAD.

Guess what happens when the man does all the work, puts her on a pedestal, spoils her rotten, and then sits back and hopes she will give him a crumb in return?

She starts hating him.

Why should she work harder? You DO EVERYTHING!

Here's what I would do.

I would get a posterboard, and sit down with her and write out everything that goes on in your household. Just list it all. Everything that has to get done in a month's time. Once you have it all listed out, ask her to pick 5 things she wants to take care of, telling her that YOU will then pick 5 things YOU will take care of. Then ask her to pick another 5. Then you pick 5. See, you're letting her pick the cream of the crop and still holding up your support.

But you ARE telling her that she needs to be responsible for half of taking care of your house/family/husband.

She needs you to be stronger, take charge, EXPECT something from her.
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post #38 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 03:36 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

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Originally Posted by okeydokie View Post
i'm not going to do the typical point counter point thing with you. but you have said volumes by using the term "typical male" and by stating that a woman needs to be tended to and its up to him to balance the scales, i think alot of women should learn how to tend to their husbands and quit playing the victim role.
Go do some research, okeydokie. You'll find volumes written about how men tend to take women for granted, how women tend to not voice their opinion, how the women make sure the man IS tended to (laundry, groceries, appointments, kidcare, etc.) but then sits back and waits for the men to notice it and reciprocate.

How the women often then build resentment because they are not being vocal about what they are lacking in the marriage, and also resentful that the man expects bedroom time whenever he wants it and gets resentful himself for not getting it, but doesn't take the time to wonder WHY she doesn't want to, or else doesn't KNOW that he should wonder why, as men really just aren't wired to be into their emotions.

Read Men Are From Mars; Women Are From Venus, and you'll get the general gist of how the differences work for or against us.
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post #39 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 03:40 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

Goodguy,
In a primate hierarchy the type of behavior you engage in only happens when one primate is WAY WAY lower in the hierarchy than the other.

So the message you are transmitting to her is that YOU think that you don't deserve her. That YOU think she is way higher on the social hierarchy than you. And that message causes her hard wired circuitry to tell her to stop mating with you.

I am NOT suggesting you act like a "bad boy." I am suggesting that if you are smart you will assess all your behavior in the context of the message it sends and stop sending her the message that you don't deserve her.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodguy View Post
I dont think she is mental, but I do think she battles some depression. We have a son with special needs and two others that, though they are healthy, are much more of a handful. I wonder if she has some past issues. She has an uncle that she spent a lot of time with that is now in jail for child molesting. Several of her cousins were victims but she swears she cannot remember anything even remotely inappropriately happening.

All that said, I am not a typical male. I waited until I was married before I had sex for peats sake. I treat her like a queen. I get up with the kids and let her sleep in, I cook almost every meal, I clean the house, I am the sole provider for the family, I do not lose my temper or even get upset that often. I do it all. And yet, somehow it comes back on me to do even more. The bar is set so high that I just dont think I can do it. I cant stop drinking, or beating her, or yelling at her, or sleeping around.

There just isnt much more I can do. I tried counseling, I did everything that was suggested. She could not even send me a note or email once a week just to let me know she was thinking about me. And I understand it, if she does not feel that way toward me then sure it is going to be a chore to do. But I read all the notes she shared with another man, and all the time she made to email him and tell him how much she missed him not to mention the side of her that I did not even know existed.

I will do the LB and EN questionaires, I have them printed out. But again, it will be me trying to do that much more and she will not have it in her to do.

The thing is, this all just comes off as a giant whine fest to her and here on the boards. I love her. I do not believe she will ever be unfaithful again. She does treat me better now, and we do spend time together, quality and physical. As I said, our household is not destructive to our children in anyway, and divorce is not an option I will ever choose unless she is unfaithful again.

I just wish she would work harder at it you know? I wish she would listen to a counselor. I wish she would read the one book I asked her to read. I wish she would, even one time, whisper in my ear that she wanted me. She says she wishes I felt better about myself, but I feel great about myself. The only place I struggle is with her. She is the one that told me I am not attractive to her, but I am married to her, she is the one person that can give me that confidence. That can look over my emotional and physical needs. I am not allowed to go outside our marriage for that.

I guess that is enough for now. I really do appreciate the advise, and getting this out of my system does help. There is no one I else I can share this with.
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post #40 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 03:49 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

Exactly!
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post #41 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 04:54 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

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Go do some research, okeydokie. You'll find volumes written about how men tend to take women for granted, how women tend to not voice their opinion, how the women make sure the man IS tended to (laundry, groceries, appointments, kidcare, etc.) but then sits back and waits for the men to notice it and reciprocate.

How the women often then build resentment because they are not being vocal about what they are lacking in the marriage, and also resentful that the man expects bedroom time whenever he wants it and gets resentful himself for not getting it, but doesn't take the time to wonder WHY she doesn't want to, or else doesn't KNOW that he should wonder why, as men really just aren't wired to be into their emotions.

Read Men Are From Mars; Women Are From Venus, and you'll get the general gist of how the differences work for or against us.
i said i wouldnt do this with you, however

when is enough enough for a woman. is there ever enough for a woman to not feel taken for granted? will her complicated and over calculating thinking process ever allow her to just say, wow this is a good guy i have here. he works, he does housework, he keeps up the yard and the pool, is completely and deeply involved in our kids lives, hes clean and neat, he listens to me and we make decisions together and he desires me and only me and still finds me exceptionally attractive. and all i really have to do to show him my affection is be regularly intimate with him (something i do enjoy when it happens).


why is this so complicated?

as always there are exceptions on both sides, bad husbands and bad wives and just plain bad people.
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post #42 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 05:44 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

As with everything, it's all about balance. If BOTH people are honestly stopping and thinking about the other person, and not just being selfish, but rather caring about the other and wanting to improve their marriage, they will find ways so that both people get what they want.

In all the threads I've read over the last 10 years or so, at least 80%-90% of the women who have left their husband have left because they tell their husband what they are missing in the marriage, and the husband ignores what they say and continues to do what he is doing. Until the wife falls out of love with him (since he is not attempting to meet her needs), and leaves. Typically after the kids graduate.

And then the husband comes online and pleads for help, how to get his wife to love him again. Most times, it's too late; she's waited and waited and waited, and finally hardened her heart to him.

IMO, it's because men are raised by women. Who DO take care of all their needs. So they expect their wife to do the same thing. They marry a woman for sex, for a family, but also for a mother.

For the record, out of all the threads I've read, maybe 20% of them include a husband like you describe - who does housework, puts the same amount of time into raising the kids as the wife, and makes an effort to have regular conversations.
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post #43 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-27-2010, 05:56 PM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

OD,
I really do think in your case it is the nice guy thing that is killing you. If a woman feels ill treated she is typically highly skilled at explaining SPECIFICALLY what she is unhappy about. It might or might not be "fair" but it is clear.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IME if you have a very unfiltered communication style in the relationship then you can avoid all the deception that goes on in these sexual conversations.

The conversation is short and airtight if you stick to a script. As the high drive spouse you need to know two things:

1. Does making YOU happy make THEM happy?
2. Do they have a sexual aversion to you?

Thats really it. The sad thing is that I think the most common answer pattern is not YES/YES. I think the most common pattern is NO/NO. Meaning they don't have a sexual aversion, they just don't get a thrill from making you happy. Which is a relationship problem not a sexual problem per se. And it is VERY OFTEN caused by their thinking two things:
- You don't deserve them AND
- You would never leave them





In a primate hierarchy the type of behavior you engage in only happens when one primate is WAY WAY lower in the hierarchy than the other.

So the message you are transmitting to her is that YOU think that you don't deserve her. That YOU think she is way higher on the social hierarchy than you. And that message causes her hard wired circuitry to tell her to stop mating with you.

I am NOT suggesting you act like a "bad boy." I am suggesting that if you are smart you will assess all your behavior in the context of the message it sends and stop sending her the message that you don't deserve her.



Quote:
Originally Posted by okeydokie View Post
i said i wouldnt do this with you, however

when is enough enough for a woman. is there ever enough for a woman to not feel taken for granted? will her complicated and over calculating thinking process ever allow her to just say, wow this is a good guy i have here. he works, he does housework, he keeps up the yard and the pool, is completely and deeply involved in our kids lives, hes clean and neat, he listens to me and we make decisions together and he desires me and only me and still finds me exceptionally attractive. and all i really have to do to show him my affection is be regularly intimate with him (something i do enjoy when it happens).


why is this so complicated?

as always there are exceptions on both sides, bad husbands and bad wives and just plain bad people.
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post #44 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-28-2010, 05:13 AM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

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i said i wouldnt do this with you, however

when is enough enough for a woman. is there ever enough for a woman to not feel taken for granted? will her complicated and over calculating thinking process ever allow her to just say, wow this is a good guy i have here. he works, he does housework, he keeps up the yard and the pool, is completely and deeply involved in our kids lives, hes clean and neat, he listens to me and we make decisions together and he desires me and only me and still finds me exceptionally attractive. and all i really have to do to show him my affection is be regularly intimate with him (something i do enjoy when it happens).


why is this so complicated?

as always there are exceptions on both sides, bad husbands and bad wives and just plain bad people.

Totally agree here. Is it impossible for a woman to be madly in love someone that loves and respects her? Again and again the saying that nice guys finish last pops up.

I cannot change who I am to a worse version of me. I am a positive person. I smile and laugh every single day. I build people up, I do not tear them down. I tell my wife and boys how much I love them, and how proud I am of them.

I listened to my mom and step dad just rip each other to shreds in screaming arguments. I saw first hand what an alcoholic can do to a family. I learned from those mistakes. I made a promise to myself that I would never do that. I would always treat my wife with respect, I would not drink, I would give my kids a family that stays together. If I have to do without having my emotional and physical needs met then so be it. But I think I will always wonder, and feel a little sorry for myself, that I will never be the guy that someone truly wanted for who he is.
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post #45 of 385 (permalink) Old 04-28-2010, 05:54 AM
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Re: Does your wife ever initiate sex?

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All that said, I am not a typical male. I waited until I was married before I had sex for peats sake. I treat her like a queen. I get up with the kids and let her sleep in, I cook almost every meal, I clean the house, I am the sole provider for the family, I do not lose my temper or even get upset that often. I do it all. And yet, somehow it comes back on me to do even more.
You sound like a pure Beta Male, devoid of Alpha Male qualities when it comes to your wife. You need to find a way to balance the two. I tend not to post her all that much anymore, I'd suggest my blog as a more comprehensive resource for this matter.

In short you are boring her to tears. That's the problem.
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