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Old 09-30-2010, 02:17 PM   #166 (permalink)
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Zammo,

Good points, and the truth is there are also many women not buying into this feminist ideas hook line and sinker as well.

The finesse for all good men, is to never assume all women are this way or that way concerning some modern way of thinking, but to let the individual woman speak for herself.

I work in my career among many high success and educated women, and can name many of them that are rejecting mostly or all these feminist stereotypes and are either in good relationships or would potentially be excellent in relationships, at least to speak of relationships as they are willing to reveal.

And of course can name many of them at my career and social circles that most men should avoid marriage with at all costs!

And even some of the more successful ones, it is clear with the conversations do drift to these types of topics, that absolutley behind closed doors they are not wanting to be with a man that is not the toe to toe match for her, and unable to make her feel as a woman.

But know this, even to interview a potential candidate or get to know a potential client or vendor or contracting engineer, if this person is a woman who one of the first things out of her mouth is how she is quick to stand up to a man, or not take anything from a man other such thing, then it is common among those of who have been around the block that there is some compensation maybe being covered up.

For in my experience, and especially noticing in the last few years as these things are peaking my curiousity, of the sevearal women who find themselves in compromised positions at our place of work and have to be reprimanded or fired (affair with boss, affair with client or vendor, sex in the workplace, et etc etc) are the ones who from their mouths are quick to spin some feminist hard line, but at their core are simply being dishonest with themselves and are unprepared when temptation or improper opportunities arise. I cannot help but wonder if this is more than coincidence!

Instead the strong and balanced women candidates will rarely need to say how strong they are in compare to men, for their resumes or experience or previous accomplishments and how they carry themselves during the interview will speak much louder on these things, and this does carry the weight.

So this is just some of my observations on these tings.
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Old 09-30-2010, 02:54 PM   #167 (permalink)
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The finesse for all good men, is to never assume all women are this way or that way concerning some modern way of thinking, but to let the individual woman speak for herself.
This is the "we are all special snowflakes" world view and is generally not successful because people act in shockingly predictable ways based on common backgrounds and consistent input.

It's also called the "Not All Women Are Like That" (NAWALT) concept in the Internet manosphere and the common wisdom of men who truly understand women is that NAWALT really doesn't apply. Women (and men, of course) are indeed quite predictable and the details of this predictability must be shared widely.

Of course, political correctness reinforces the special snowflake world view and NAWALT and to reject these is to incur the wrath of the politically correct. Not that I care.
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:14 PM   #168 (permalink)
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I agree completely with the no snowflake view.

That was not my point.

I was saying to the good men reading this, not to assume every woman they run across in life is believing the feminist ideas hook line and sinker.

There are women in this beautiful world who are looking for a good man, and will appreciate being in a relationship with such a man. On this I am very much an optimist as I see and live this belief in my own life.

I do not look at women as all demon or all angel, to either be avoided or worshipped at all, but simply that a woman is a woman.

Again on this we agree, as humans definitely patterns and habits are predictable, men behave like men, women behave like women and because of this the good man can chart his own course based on what he desires for his happiness!

Regarding this NAWALT ideas, I have not heard of this before but I will spend some time looking at what this is about.

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This is the "we are all special snowflakes" world view and is generally not successful because people act in shockingly predictable ways based on common backgrounds and consistent input.

It's also called the "Not All Women Are Like That" (NAWALT) concept in the Internet manosphere and the common wisdom of men who truly understand women is that NAWALT really doesn't apply. Women (and men, of course) are indeed quite predictable and the details of this predictability must be shared widely.

Of course, political correctness reinforces the special snowflake world view and NAWALT and to reject these is to incur the wrath of the politically correct. Not that I care.
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:42 PM   #169 (permalink)
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Perhaps it is hard to capture the spirit of our relationship but I will take a stab at it.

If either of us says "this is really important to me...." the other pays careful attention and then says "I am on the case". If we both feel that way and we disagree then we both make a good faith effort to find a compromise that is fair.

We almost never have to actually say "this is really important to me..." because we already know.

That said her list of important stuff is long. Mine is short. It feels fair to me because she handles my "short list" enthusiastically - and ummm... skillfully. And THAT makes it all work like magic.

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You have such a way with words! LOL

I don't think that my husband (Tanelornpete) has a superior intellect or is a better decision maker. I believe we have complementary intellects and we are both utterly capable of making decisions. We also both are comfortable speaking to each other honestly and being open with each other about our thoughts and feelings--that safety/protection concept is a big one. BUT at the end of the day, someone has to be the one designated to make the decision.

I can't speak for every couple but the way we do it is that he seeks out my input and then either he makes the decision outright or he decides "You choose on this one as either way seems reasonable to me." Thus if I have a preference we can choose to go with that preference. To my mind, the way and style that BBW and MEM use is a little more dominant than the way we do it, but it's darn close and the concept is right. Our personal execution is more like this: "You're the expert at this one dear so you take the lead on that project" or "We agree to tackle this or that together." It always comes back to one thing though...HE makes that determination just because someone has to be picked.

I think those who protest the man taking the lead usually have at some point experienced a man who is abusive in his leadership, and this creates a wife who is unruly and unwilling to yield to that kind of treatment. When a man is firm but also openly communicates, "I will listen; I will take your opinion into account," it makes a world of difference and puts the wife in a position of not being afraid to "let go of the reins" and let him be the leader he is.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:34 PM   #170 (permalink)
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After battling in my own marriage I read this thread with interest. It reads so true with solving my own problems and not having my needs (in the bedroom) met. I think we all need some coaching on structuring new balanced relationships that reflect the differences between men and women. As the original post points out we didn't have those strong role models, my father was as strong as an ox but turned to alcohol to resolve his disappointments in his marriage. I'm not going to deal with them the same way - I also need to demonstrate to my son how to be strong and loving at the same time.

I started a blog on the sex bit over here:
Hornyhusband's Blog

I really want to expand it as a commentary for men on how to have a healthy, balanced relationship.
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Old 10-01-2010, 02:39 AM   #171 (permalink)
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Domination in a social or political sense, I am in agreement with mostly what is being expressed, of course I am not advocating slavery or some form of it even on an emotional or psychological level, that is ridiculous.

Do not think for a minute I am surpressing or controling the personality or behavior of my wife nor would that be very likely for any man to do. ANyone who knows or would see my wife would assume in every sense she is sharp and intelligent and opinionated and not taking crap from anyone, very dominant herself and that is a fact.

But in the sexual sense, for the sexual structure to be at peak and prime, in my experience absolutely, there is one leader and one dominant partner, and sexually speaking that is the responsibility of the man, and in any relationship where sex is important then the man will strive to dominate, and the woman will strive to be dominated, even to the point where the woman, yes, will push her man to be this in some way or form.

If this is offensive to anyone then that is up to them to reconcile whether there experiences match up to their offense.

Be sure that at any time if my wife expressed she would rather be treated gender neutral and stop being turned on sexually day by day for so many years, of course I would respect such a decision but of course there would be consequences to the relationship for sure. This should not even need to be typed out but regardless here it is for anyone who really needs to see it.

In all my experiences with women, I have never seen any woman as turned on as she is when she is pursued in the dominant fashion, period. No amount of negotiation or talk or giving flowers or doing housework or any of these other 50/50 ideas have even come close. And I am saying not even in the same ballpark or even worth speaking of.

So much to say consistently seeing a woman on the verge of an orgasm often without much more than being touched, or begging her man to take her or begging her man to rip off her clothes or begging her man to allow her to do this or that to him, can you say this happens from a man doing housework? I dare anyone to compare.

It is clear there are many opinions shared that, while everyone has the right to their opinion, not every opinion is even worthwhile to be considered or replied to.

Any opinion to attempt to shame a man to "grow up" for expressing his sexual appetites or experiences will always fall under this category.

Non the less, this thread is borderline on some silly gender war, that is not beneficial to anyone and I would encourage everyone to share honestly and openly their own opinions backed with their experience, and to avoid needless accusations, as they will help no one.
I see you only as you define and design yourself in title and through word here on these forums: The Big Bad Wolf. For every big bad wolf there must be a better woodsman or woodswoman who counters and overcomes the self interests of the wolf. It has nothing to do with gender and all to do with humanity.

Although it's refreshing to know that you believe your woman is honest with you, as judgmental as I am and as sure that you are equally so, I will judge that your wife gives up more than you will ever know in order to keep you happy for whatever reason she deems fit in the bedroom.

Honesty to me is paramount and this goes beyond the sake of the relationship. Fairy tales are written by those who need to believe them and history written by those who get the chance to broadcast it with honesty being the only thing real and fitting of a soul connection.
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Old 10-01-2010, 05:38 AM   #172 (permalink)
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Article in the news today:

http://www.thestar.com/article/86781...nd-take-charge


It’s time for men to man up and take charge

by Robert Cribb
Staff Reporter

I blame Air Supply.

And the entire male cast of Friends.

As a gender, the modern man has been socialized into bumbling submission.

Doting, indecisive and generally wimpy, too many of us have lost the ancient protocols of manhood.

Consider the basic proposition posed by Toronto writer Elliott Katz in his self-help guide for the whipped male called Being the Strong Man A Woman Wants: Our fathers, bewildered by the feminist revolution, have failed to hand down the kind of testosterone-laced wisdom that defined our gender throughout history.

That breaking of the chain has blurred the male social code beyond recognition.

What remains is a kind of wishy-washy modern malehood that has left men puzzled and women frustrated, says Katz.

“We mean well. But boys have grown up without strong role models. We think we’re being nice. But we’re shirking our responsibility.”

Himself included, says Katz, a divorced father of two whose book sprang from a kind of post mortem on his own marital identity.

“I tried to please. I thought, ‘If I could do what she wants, she would be happy.’”

So, he did.

He worked hard, provided for his family and tried to be accommodating.

“She seemed to know what she wanted and I figured I’ll do what she wants.”

And there’s the rub, he says.

Too many of us have handed over decision making to our wives and girlfriends on everything from the evening meal plans to RRSP contribution levels.

We relentlessly seek approval, defer, scurry to please and compromise endlessly to gain favour or peace.

In short, we are no longer leaders.

Bad call, says Katz.

“Leaving decisions to her is very frustrating for women. We all believe in gender equality. But you’re still the man and you have to take charge.”

Clear signs of the masculinity deficit emerged in the “sensitive new age guy” (SNAG) ’80s and ’90s and advanced to a contemporary state of near androgyny.

Our balls now come pre-busted.

Turn on any number of popular culture sitcoms – The Simpsons, Seinfeld, Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, Yes, Dear, Two and a Half Men — and witness the spineless man on comedic display.

The laughs are on us.

For more biting social criticism, consider the Kevin Spacey character in the film American Beauty.

“Lester, could you make me a little later please because I’m not quite late enough,” his wife scolds condescendingly as he spills the contents of his briefcase on the way out the door one morning.

She’s the one driving the car.

“Both my wife and daughter think I’m this gigantic loser, and they’re right,” he narrates. “I have lost something. I’m not exactly sure what it is.”

Last week’s edition of Newsweek magazine featured a lengthy lament of modern masculinity summarized by this line: “To survive in a hostile world, guys need to embrace girly jobs and dirty diapers.”

New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd’s recent book title asks the excruciatingly offensive question, Are Men Necessary?

And a recent essay in The Atlantic — provocatively titled “The End of Men” — reports that after being the dominant sex since the dawn of time, “that is changing — and with shocking speed.”

This role reversal – including the female eclipse of men in universities and the professional world — is all part of the bruising being sustained by the modern male ego.

It feeds our growing deference.

The only path left is personal responsibility, says Katz.

Breaking the cycle requires a new found manning-up philosophy, finding issues that aren’t being handled in a relationship and handling them, being more decisive and, in the end, reclaiming a connection to primal manhood.

And, as an aside, it wouldn’t kill you to banish from your music library any whiny men singing saccharine dirges about lost love. That crap is killing you inside.
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Old 10-01-2010, 08:01 AM   #173 (permalink)
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BBW,

A very good article.

I am going to gossip, I don't like to gossip, it is not my nature.

But please see the comparison.

My husband used to have a friend. This friend is married to a Taiwanese woman.

In our marriage, I let my husband manage the big issues, like buying an apartment or planning a trip, or anything involved with big money. I am independent as a working woman, but at home he is my leader, he is the decision maker, we have being enjoying a happy marriage ever since we got married. I respect him as my man and he loves me as his wife.

This other friend lets his wife make decisions, for example, she asked to have separate bank accounts. The day when we got married my husband said that we have to put our money together, we can't have separate accounts, I did what he wanted. This friend of his listened to his wife. When he was making less money than she did, she would complain. She decided to buy an apartment which they can't afford, he let her do it. She decided to have fancy decoration, he went along. Do you know what kind of life they have now. They are in debt, they have difficulties making bank payments. They prolonged their mortgage from 20 years to 30 years. She has being depressed ever since they got married, he is very frustrated with her too. I wanted to buy a big apartment, my husband said NO, I listened to him. I wanted to have fancy decoration, my husband said NO, I listened to him. I listen to him. He is smart! And he is happy that I let him make decisions.

Maybe some men are not that smart, but when making a decision, a man will think about more areas, a woman just likes to show off.

I respect my husband, even though he is younger than me. I let him be my head, since I know I make impulsive decisions.

No matter how smart women think they are , they should let men be their leaders, it is just human nature!! And it is the best way to live.

Last edited by greenpearl; 10-01-2010 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 10-01-2010, 08:16 AM   #174 (permalink)
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The article mentions Kevin Spacey in American Beauty - one of my favorite movies.

"Both my wife and daughter think I'm this gigantic loser and they're right, I have lost something. I'm not exactly sure what it is but I know I didn't always feel this... sedated. But you know what? It's never too late to get it back."

"Look at me, jerking off in the shower... This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here."

Movie Spoilers - Alert!

The first 2 times I watched it, I was focused on the main story of him rebelling against his "gigantic loser" life. Was somewhat inspiring - in a hollywood kind of way.

But at the end, after he is shot and is dying, his mind is filled with the beautiful thoughts about his life with his wife, and about his daughter, and their times together. The last time I watched, I realized that there was probably a better way for him to have tried to "fix" his "gigantic loser" life than through pot smoking, working out, quitting his job, obsessing over his daughter's young friend, etc., etc. And that in the end, his mind found its way back to what really mattered to him.
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:24 AM   #175 (permalink)
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A relationship should be a partnership, about togetherness and compromise, not solely about the man taking the lead and the woman being the follower. There will be times when it will be right for the man to take the lead, and others when the woman should. That should be for the couple to work out. IMO
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:47 AM   #176 (permalink)
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This thread sparked a very genuine discussion between my husband and myself. I am very glad to have read this post.

I asked my husband how important was it to him to be the one to "call the shots" in the marriage and he said it was very important. I asked him why and he basically said it's a man thing and that men always need to feel as if they are making the decisions - not just in relationships.

We talked about it for a while and I got him to agree that if he wants to be the one calling the shots, then he has to take all of the responsibility if something goes wrong. It costs to be the boss. His reply was that he wishes more women would understand that even though men want to make the decisions, they aren't perfect and there will be mistakes. Men, my husband says, need to feel allowed to make them.

We talked and talked and it was nice. What occured to me during the conversation is that in order for a man to feel in control in a relationship, I as a wife basically have to let him choose my life. He determines basically what kind of life I will live by the decisions he makes. That is a tough pill to swallow for any human as everyone has wants and needs that are unique to them. It's very difficult to decide to give up that control in your own life and I believe that is why so many women opt to divorce. They can't find the balance between surrendering to the marriage and happiness. They come to the conclusion that they can only be happy if they have the freedom to make their own decisions.

I must admit that I often get torn between making my marriage a successful one or my own happiness. The two do not always coexist! At the current time however, I have decided to submit to my husband because I like who he is better when I do. I'm just not sure how I feel about myself because of that decision. I believe only time will tell.
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:53 AM   #177 (permalink)
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Marriage is about as perfect as the spouses in it. There are no perfect people, there are no perfect marriages.

Each marriage is as unique as the spouses in it.

There is no “one solution fits all” to any of the problems in a marriage.

Where there’s love there’s hope. Where there’s no love there’s no hope. When hope is gone it’s time to walk away.

Marriage is there to be enjoyed and invested in. And like any investment it needs watching and taken care of.

In long term marriages people change as they grow so the marriage changes. In long term marriages life’s experiences change the people, so the marriage changes. What worked yesterday no longer works today or tomorrow. To be successful in a long term marriage means to be adaptable to change because change will come. That’s guaranteed.

Bob
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:56 AM   #178 (permalink)
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Please remember, our husbands are not perfect human beings. They make mistakes. If they make mistakes, we shouldn't sit there complain and complain. Say if he has lost money from investing, your complaining won't help him feel better, your blaming him won't get the money back. Let go of the past, he does need to know he had made a mistake, learn from the mistake he made, and avoid making the same mistake again. We have to be forgiving, since mistakes will sure happen in our lives!!!
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:58 AM   #179 (permalink)
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We bought that ticket. And the ride leads to mediocrity, dissatisfaction and resentment. You are missing the point. Both MEM and BBW say it over and over ad nauseum ...

there is a difference between being a draconian control-freak, and a benevolent leader. Their wives do lead, in areas the couple has already delineated; areas that they as men defer, or just don't care about. That's what works. They are advocating exactly what you are saying - they have the partnership you outline. But somehow, and I'm not pointing the finger at you, there is always someone, who thinks they are some kind of Svengali.

Women think they want a sensitive, emotional, compassionate, romantic man that can openly express his feelings, isn't afraid to cry, wants to spend all of their time together and lives to please them.

Give them that package and they will without question eventually be bored to tears. They will not stay attracted to that man. They will instead be drawn to someone a little more 'exciting' and 'challenging'. There is no excitement or challenge in having a 'yes' man for a partner.

The kicker is even as WE (men collectively) try to step out of the doormat role - and become more practical in our partnering, more assertive, better leaders - women will test us and lament that we are not behaving as doormats. It is a fundamental tenet of the rules of engagement.

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A relationship should be a partnership, about togetherness and compromise, not solely about the man taking the lead and the woman being the follower. There will be times when it will be right for the man to take the lead, and others when the woman should. That should be for the couple to work out. IMO
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Old 10-01-2010, 10:06 AM   #180 (permalink)
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Please remember, our husbands are not perfect human beings. They make mistakes. If they make mistakes, we shouldn't sit there complain and complain. Say if he has lost money from investing, your complaining won't help him feel better, your blaming him won't get the money back. Let go of the past, he does need to know he had made a mistake, learn from the mistake he made, and avoid making the same mistake again. We have to be forgiving, since mistakes will sure happen in our lives!!!
Yeah well, wives aren't perfect either. Sometimes it's hard to keep your mouth shut once someone has made mistake after mistake, especially because the mistakes effect your life (and the lives of the children) just as much!

I agree that "I told you so" is never really productive, but sometimes people need to vent about how the situation has been f*ed up by this mistake. I mean, it's my life too.
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