I actually referenced NG's post and said something similar to stbx last night after dropping off two wonderful, sleeping, kids.
I acknowledged that when I'm on my deathbed, it's not all this sh!t that is going on between us that I am going to remember. It will be all of the wonderful times, between us, and then with our kids that I will remember. I stated if I had it to do over, I would change some things, but that I still would have chosen my life with her - and those children.
That's great and makes me happy for you, her and your children. The dynamics between any couple are complicated.
Deejo,
I think you misunderstood me. I did not call anybody ignorant. My misogyny comment came from the underlying current in many of posts to this thread. In essence marry a woman that makes less than you, has less of an education and understands her role in a marriage so you won't feel threatened as a man. That men suddenly have their balls in a vice because women did this, not that men willingly gave them up.
Don't get me wrong, there were many many comments to the contrarary. It was just the "let's all harken back to the good old days" where a woman knew her place and a man was a man tone in some of the other posts that had me going.
That's great and makes me happy for you, her and your children. The dynamics between any couple are complicated.
I agree - even if things are working out you can still love someone. That's a good thing, Deejo.
Who is being misogynistic?
I don't like seeing the word "victim" thrown around here. I've learned a lot - both from this board and my real life - but I don't feel like a victim at all.
I often find myself thinking that the people who have good marriages - maybe they just have good marriages at this particular moment. Really does seem like the bottom can fall out on anyone at anytime. For 14.5 years I could have considered myself an expert too.
A lot of the "Nice guy" talk sounds a lot like codependent stuff - which is often associated with women (probably because the founder of that movement was a woman). But both the Nice Guy and codependent language can be easily applied to anyone who needs to strengthen their boundaries. It's gender neutral.
I agree with the poster who said we should all focus on ourselves first. I used to nod my head in agreement - but now I truly believe it and am trying to live it.
I agree we should work on ourselves. Really, I can only change me and that's hard enough. If it's hard to change myself, I would suspect it would be impossible to change my spouse.
Deejo,
I think you misunderstood me. I did not call anybody ignorant. My misogyny comment came from the underlying current in many of posts to this thread.
You didn't make the comment ;-)
I do understand. Debate is good. Exchange is good. Having women participate in this thread is good. None of us want to be cave men. We want to be better men. The focus of what MEM, and BBW contribute is what has worked for them in keeping their wives intimately attracted to them for more than two decades. Some may not care for the dynamics they outline, but results are hard to argue with.
Even more simply, there are men that aren't looking for a mother, a housekeeper, or a wh0re. We want a partner that loves and values us and yes ... wants to have sex with us ... a lot.
I don't feel threatened by women. I don't want women to feel threatened by me. I DO want to emulate behavior that makes me desirable, valuable and respectable.
Quote:
It was just the "let's all harken back to the good old days" where a woman knew her place and a man was a man tone in some of the other posts that had me going.
The discussion of the intimate details of how that happens is invariably going to ruffle the feathers of some of the fairer sex. It isn't about devaluing, it's about being aware of, and implementing what works. Some of what works is going to sound sexist.
Really sucks that the way we usually discover this is by going through a very long, and very painful process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by themrs
I agree we should work on ourselves. Really, I can only change me and that's hard enough. If it's hard to change myself, I would suspect it would be impossible to change my spouse.
Oh yes a lot of men these days need to get their balls back. Seems like their mothers crushed them while they were still little boys.
Women don't need a sissy guy who asks her for permission to go out (no offense to anyone I guess). We want men who put down rules, not in disrespectful ways that is and have lots of self respect, but not to the extent that their ego controls them to the very core. We don't want someone who cheats, abuses and disregards us. But we also don't need a maid, and a girlfriend...at least I personally don't. I never asked my husband to do laundry, iron, do dishes or any type of house work. He only helped me with heavy lifting and reaching places that were too high for me. Oh and I HATE it when men gossip in front of women. Total turn off lol
The way men were like in the older days was good, but they thought they had control and could do anything, including cheat and abuse. Today, you need to find the perfect balance by showing your wife your love in manly way and not a sissy way. I'm not gonna love you more because you folded my laundry or scrubbed the floor. You might as well wear my bra if you're gonna be acting like another woman just like me.
I like your post Cherrpie. I really do. You've put so much emotion and thought into your world and it's really very very nice. But I gotta say "perfect balance", perfection exists in nature but not in us humans. If we get close to it we're truly blessed.
I still totally disagree with the idea that a varied few know what all women want and what all men want. It's just so lame and there has to at least be flexibility.
I like nice, intelligent guys. I truly do. I think they're awesome and, contrary to the majority on this board, I think they're rare. Egotistical, testosterone males are a dime a dozen. Maybe I live in a very weird part of the country.
I do think that those speaking, including myself, about good marriages are just having good marriages now. I found these boards because I was upset with my marriage and my first post was asking for help. No one knows what's in store for us. Obviously this forum board is a very small fraction of the population. It's great for communicating, sharing and sometimes learning. I'd rather root for one another than be right. In marriage right is very relative.
I still totally disagree with the idea that a varied few know what all women want and what all men want. It's just so lame and there has to at least be flexibility.
I like nice, intelligent guys. I truly do. I think they're awesome and, contrary to the majority on this board, I think they're rare. Egotistical, testosterone males are a dime a dozen. Maybe I live in a very weird part of the country.
I do think that those speaking, including myself, about good marriages are just having good marriages now. I found these boards because I was upset with my marriage and my first post was asking for help. No one knows what's in store for us. Obviously this forum board is a very small fraction of the population. It's great for communicating, sharing and sometimes learning. I'd rather root for one another than be right. In marriage right is very relative.
If we're here there's something very wrong in our lives!!!
It isn't gospel. It is anecdotal. We are talking about a sample of two. I'm not saying they are 'right', but it is a very simple tenet for business and life. If you want to be successful, find someone who is - and do what they are doing.
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Originally Posted by Trenton
I still totally disagree with the idea that a varied few know what all women want and what all men want. It's just so lame and there has to at least be flexibility.
I like nice, intelligent guys. I truly do. I think they're awesome and, contrary to the majority on this board, I think they're rare. Egotistical, testosterone males are a dime a dozen. Maybe I live in a very weird part of the country.
I do think that those speaking, including myself, about good marriages are just having good marriages now. I found these boards because I was upset with my marriage and my first post was asking for help. No one knows what's in store for us. Obviously this forum board is a very small fraction of the population. It's great for communicating, sharing and sometimes learning. I'd rather root for one another than be right. In marriage right is very relative.
If we're here there's something very wrong in our lives!!!
Something is missing!
Bob
I know what is missing in my life, FRIENDS!
I have good conversations with my husband, but my world is very little, so I need to feel not secluded from this world. I like forums because the whole world is open to me.
It isn't gospel. It is anecdotal. We are talking about a sample of two. I'm not saying they are 'right', but it is a very simple tenet for business and life. If you want to be successful, find someone who is - and do what they are doing.
Most people are happy if other people they know have a miserable life, especially women. That's called jealousy. If there are not good examples, how can other people follow. What they said about their wives are women men want. There are still happy marriages, people just need to be more considerate and loving of others instead of themselves. But sadly to say, this world is full of selfish people, if everybody is selfish, nobody likes to give then who can get. Then the selfish people are sad because they don't get what they want. If you want to get, please give.
MEM, responding to yours on p. 2 of the posts--I agree with you. You practice give and take. When there is a disagreement, no one should have to "give" all the time. No one should have the "right" to dominate just b/c of his/her biology. In mature relationships, each of you knows when it is more important to give and to take the lead.
I don't want a passive partner, not in the living room, kitchen, car, or bedroom. I want someone willing to take a stand and never back down on something truly, essentially important just b/c he fears being alone, or having some discord. Neither of those two things is worth giving up yourself. But to insist on being dominant just for the sake of getting laid later--well, that is just plain stupid. In the long run, that is an insult to the intelligence of BOTH people involved. You've never said you do that. Just the opposite--you know when you must take a stand. You are not afraid to stand up for yourself. How any man ever came to believe that feminism meant he is not entitled to his opinions, etc., I'll never understand. He's not entitled to oppress another b/c he is a man, and she is a woman. He's not entitled to "dominate" just b/c he has a penis and she doesn't. He cannot get away with being a controlling fool. BUT none of that means he cannot be, should not be, a responsible adult. Same for women. Any woman who feels it is her "role" to abdicate her authority as a woman, wife, and mother, just b/c her husband feels otherwise, is also abdicating her responsibility to act as an adult and make the world a better place. I do not have respect for adults who choose to act as children or tyrants just b/c it suits them sexually; that does not make it right.
I like your post Cherrpie. I really do. You've put so much emotion and thought into your world and it's really very very nice. But I gotta say "perfect balance", perfection exists in nature but not in us humans. If we get close to it we're truly blessed.
Bob
Humans should not strive to be perfect, because it is impossible. Know who we are, know who our spouses are, accept their flaws, accept our flaws, if they are acceptable. Just do our best and never expect perfection. Expecting perfection will put a lot of pressure on life and that is very stressful. Living a stressful life is not good for our health.
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Re: Modern Men (Warning...long) 
