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Old 09-26-2010, 11:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Modern Men (Warning...long)

Honestly, what is wrong with some of you? Treat each other like adults--no ADULT wants to be dominated. Grow up and take responsbility for your own decisions.

If you must dominate to feel like a man, then you are acting like a boy. A man can feel manly without having to dominate another. If you disrespect a man because he does his fair share at home, then you are acting like a silly little girl who thinks people are trapped in roles.

I don't like a man or woman who cries out of anger, fear, or frustration. Children cry for those reasons.

Men like sexually aggressive women just as much as women like sexually agressive men--any man who does not has some issues b/c he needs to feel "in control" to feel sexual. Seriously, how many PEOPLE actually enjoy passive sexual partners? Yuck.

I would take everything that MEM says about MEN and say women should do the same. If your man takes out his bad mood on you, stand up for yourself. Geez, it's not rocket science--it's what strong, mentally healthy adults DO. Neither men nor women should let another person "dominate" them and frankly, if you do, you are acting CHILDISHLY and really need examine the very faulty nature of your assumptions about humans, sexuality, history, and a number of other things.

I completely support the men who are tired of being pushed around by their wives and want to stand up for themselves. I have NO tolerance for the argument, however, that standing UP for one's self somehow means you must DOMINATE the other. I have NO tolerance for any argument that suggests that somehow women are "naturally" more submissive and "need" to be dominated. If you buy into that, you are woefully ignorant of all that research and history show, and you are choosing to ignore the EVIDENCE that women, dominated by men, were and are miserable. Women in equal partnerships where their man STANDS UP for himself are happy.

I think most people--men and women--continue to fear the responsibility of acting like an ADULT b/c it might mean, going it alone. When you've accepted that "alone" is not the worst thing in life and you start standing up for yourself and accepting responsibility for your choices, then you are an adult and you will find real happiness. Everything else is just an illusion and will fade.
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Old 09-26-2010, 01:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Modern Men (Warning...long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sisters359 View Post
Honestly, what is wrong with some of you? Treat each other like adults--no ADULT wants to be dominated. Grow up and take responsbility for your own decisions.

If you must dominate to feel like a man, then you are acting like a boy. A man can feel manly without having to dominate another. If you disrespect a man because he does his fair share at home, then you are acting like a silly little girl who thinks people are trapped in roles.

I don't like a man or woman who cries out of anger, fear, or frustration. Children cry for those reasons.

Men like sexually aggressive women just as much as women like sexually agressive men--any man who does not has some issues b/c he needs to feel "in control" to feel sexual. Seriously, how many PEOPLE actually enjoy passive sexual partners? Yuck.

I would take everything that MEM says about MEN and say women should do the same. If your man takes out his bad mood on you, stand up for yourself. Geez, it's not rocket science--it's what strong, mentally healthy adults DO. Neither men nor women should let another person "dominate" them and frankly, if you do, you are acting CHILDISHLY and really need examine the very faulty nature of your assumptions about humans, sexuality, history, and a number of other things.

I completely support the men who are tired of being pushed around by their wives and want to stand up for themselves. I have NO tolerance for the argument, however, that standing UP for one's self somehow means you must DOMINATE the other. I have NO tolerance for any argument that suggests that somehow women are "naturally" more submissive and "need" to be dominated. If you buy into that, you are woefully ignorant of all that research and history show, and you are choosing to ignore the EVIDENCE that women, dominated by men, were and are miserable. Women in equal partnerships where their man STANDS UP for himself are happy.

I think most people--men and women--continue to fear the responsibility of acting like an ADULT b/c it might mean, going it alone. When you've accepted that "alone" is not the worst thing in life and you start standing up for yourself and accepting responsibility for your choices, then you are an adult and you will find real happiness. Everything else is just an illusion and will fade.
The point is not dominating each other but dominating the situation. And women tend to like confident men who can take care of things. We don't want to be dominated and told what to do and when to inhale and exhale. You got it all wrong. We do want our men to be helpful but not to the point where they become doormats. They need to learn when to stop and say no instead of kissing our butts to please us.


And believe it or not roles are a good thing and even important. Everybody has their own roles be it at home, school, work, church and just wherever. It's all about roles and everyone doing their part. It would be a mess if the roles got mixed and people did each others jobs. That is how problems are caused. It's not immature at all.
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Old 09-26-2010, 02:47 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEM11363 View Post
If you are a man and you want to have a passionate relationship with your wife:
1. ALL dominance starts in-house. That means you learn to control YOUR emotions - especially the two biggest enemies fear and uncontrolled anger.
2. True control of emotions enables great self control of your behavior. Not just the words that issue from your mouth, but your body language.
3. The baseline against which you measure behavior is the golden rule. Do NOT allow people to treat you worse than you would treat them.
4. Acknowledge that without respect you have nothing. ALL respect emanates from in-house. If you don't respect yourself, well you can finish that sentence.
5. Earn respect by performing, demand respect by inflicting swift and sure consequences when treated in an unacceptable manner.
6. Be empathetic and supportive and loving when your W is hurting.
7. Be stern and firm when she is taking her bad day/bad mood out on you.
8. Be fun to be around. Playful, upbeat, fun and funny.
9. Be around less and make it clear why when you are not being treated fairly.
10. You are allowed to have needs. Express them. You are not allowed to be needy. There is a giant difference between the two.
11. Learn your W. A husband who says "no one can understand women, does not understand his wife. This lack of knowledge is often fatal to the marriage" Pay attention - she is likely fairly consistent.
12. Accept that your W will love you MORE when you assert yourself in a rational, strong, firm and consistent manner.
13. Learn to talk a LOT LESS and communicate much more and much better with body language.
MEM,

I find this to be true also.

Strange that she tells me I've been behaving "like an ass", but I can see things turning to the good.

I kissed her ass for a couple of years and looked for her to make me happy.

The answers lie within.
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Old 09-26-2010, 04:34 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Modern Men (Warning...long)

Sis,
Life just never is truly 50-50 in a marriage. If it was - perfectly 50-50 we would deadlock every single time we disagree. But that doesn't happen right?

So - sorry - but much as you hate the word - SOMEONE dominates the situation every time they get their way when the two parties disagree on how to proceed.

In my marriage it is 80-20. She gets her way at least 80 percent of the time. Fine by me. The 20 percent is the stuff that matters to me and in those cases we either do it my way or compromise in a way that I am happy with.

I have a simple and common scenario that most of the "nice guys" here simply have totally lost the ability to pull off. When I want to do something "new/different" I always give my W right of first refusal. We went on an extended family (her extended family) vacation a few summers back. I told her in advance that I was going to spend a day white water rafting. Now she has always told me she doesn't like rafting. I told her I would her company if she wanted to give it a shot, but was fine going without her if not.

She chose not to go but didn't for a moment think to try to discourage me from going - because
1. She is a good wife and
2. I would react very badly to her saying she didn't want to go and then trying to convince ME not to go

So my brother in law and I went had a great time. We came back that night and he and I were planning to go kayaking the next day. Funny thing - she asked to come - which was great. She came and we had the best time. He and I tipped over and she didn't. Quite funny really.

Back to being dominant. There are situations where you can only either go left or right. There IS no compromise in those situations. SOMEONE has to dominate. The nice guys posting - they have lost the ability to do that.




Quote:
Originally Posted by sisters359 View Post
Honestly, what is wrong with some of you? Treat each other like adults--no ADULT wants to be dominated. Grow up and take responsbility for your own decisions.

If you must dominate to feel like a man, then you are acting like a boy. A man can feel manly without having to dominate another. If you disrespect a man because he does his fair share at home, then you are acting like a silly little girl who thinks people are trapped in roles.

I don't like a man or woman who cries out of anger, fear, or frustration. Children cry for those reasons.

Men like sexually aggressive women just as much as women like sexually agressive men--any man who does not has some issues b/c he needs to feel "in control" to feel sexual. Seriously, how many PEOPLE actually enjoy passive sexual partners? Yuck.

I would take everything that MEM says about MEN and say women should do the same. If your man takes out his bad mood on you, stand up for yourself. Geez, it's not rocket science--it's what strong, mentally healthy adults DO. Neither men nor women should let another person "dominate" them and frankly, if you do, you are acting CHILDISHLY and really need examine the very faulty nature of your assumptions about humans, sexuality, history, and a number of other things.

I completely support the men who are tired of being pushed around by their wives and want to stand up for themselves. I have NO tolerance for the argument, however, that standing UP for one's self somehow means you must DOMINATE the other. I have NO tolerance for any argument that suggests that somehow women are "naturally" more submissive and "need" to be dominated. If you buy into that, you are woefully ignorant of all that research and history show, and you are choosing to ignore the EVIDENCE that women, dominated by men, were and are miserable. Women in equal partnerships where their man STANDS UP for himself are happy.

I think most people--men and women--continue to fear the responsibility of acting like an ADULT b/c it might mean, going it alone. When you've accepted that "alone" is not the worst thing in life and you start standing up for yourself and accepting responsibility for your choices, then you are an adult and you will find real happiness. Everything else is just an illusion and will fade.
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Old 09-26-2010, 04:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Modern Men (Warning...long)

CP,
Exactly right. I dominate the situation - not the person. And even then ONLY when it is important to me. Most of the time it isn't and SHE is dominating the situation.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cherrypie18 View Post
The point is not dominating each other but dominating the situation. And women tend to like confident men who can take care of things. We don't want to be dominated and told what to do and when to inhale and exhale. You got it all wrong. We do want our men to be helpful but not to the point where they become doormats. They need to learn when to stop and say no instead of kissing our butts to please us.


And believe it or not roles are a good thing and even important. Everybody has their own roles be it at home, school, work, church and just wherever. It's all about roles and everyone doing their part. It would be a mess if the roles got mixed and people did each others jobs. That is how problems are caused. It's not immature at all.
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Old 09-26-2010, 04:45 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Modern Men (Warning...long)

Here's how a guy knows he's in trouble...

He feels it necessary to apologize for his emotional overreactions AND feels it necessary to apologize for doing things that "make her" overreact.

If this sounds like you, keep reading.

Couples need to be "equally yoked". No matter how much males want to "fix things", you simply cannot own the emotional response of another person.

It will drive you insane.

JD
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Old 09-26-2010, 05:00 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Modern Men (Warning...long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sisters359 View Post
Honestly, what is wrong with some of you? Treat each other like adults--no ADULT wants to be dominated. Grow up and take responsbility for your own decisions.

If you must dominate to feel like a man, then you are acting like a boy. A man can feel manly without having to dominate another. If you disrespect a man because he does his fair share at home, then you are acting like a silly little girl who thinks people are trapped in roles.

I don't like a man or woman who cries out of anger, fear, or frustration. Children cry for those reasons.

Men like sexually aggressive women just as much as women like sexually agressive men--any man who does not has some issues b/c he needs to feel "in control" to feel sexual. Seriously, how many PEOPLE actually enjoy passive sexual partners? Yuck.

I would take everything that MEM says about MEN and say women should do the same. If your man takes out his bad mood on you, stand up for yourself. Geez, it's not rocket science--it's what strong, mentally healthy adults DO. Neither men nor women should let another person "dominate" them and frankly, if you do, you are acting CHILDISHLY and really need examine the very faulty nature of your assumptions about humans, sexuality, history, and a number of other things.

I completely support the men who are tired of being pushed around by their wives and want to stand up for themselves. I have NO tolerance for the argument, however, that standing UP for one's self somehow means you must DOMINATE the other. I have NO tolerance for any argument that suggests that somehow women are "naturally" more submissive and "need" to be dominated. If you buy into that, you are woefully ignorant of all that research and history show, and you are choosing to ignore the EVIDENCE that women, dominated by men, were and are miserable. Women in equal partnerships where their man STANDS UP for himself are happy.

I think most people--men and women--continue to fear the responsibility of acting like an ADULT b/c it might mean, going it alone. When you've accepted that "alone" is not the worst thing in life and you start standing up for yourself and accepting responsibility for your choices, then you are an adult and you will find real happiness. Everything else is just an illusion and will fade.
Agree this isn't rocket science here........people just don't truly communicate effectively that's the crux of everything imo.

My wife and I say "We bend we don't break" and fwiw I'm much much more bendable :-)
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Old 09-26-2010, 05:10 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: The rules

Maybe I am mixed up but I agree with what Mem says and I also LOVE & agree with what Sister359 is saying as well for added balance !!

"Nice Guys" often go too far to please & it backfires mercilessly, many of us wives end up only taking them for granted. My husband has always been a Pleaser, But he never whines or complains, he rarely showed anger to me in those days, he never came across as "Needy".

I like line # 10. " You are allowed to have needs. Express them. You are not allowed to be needy. There is a giant difference between the two".

My husband failed to express his needs better. That was his biggest issue as a Nice Guy.

I seriously hope though, that not all Nice Guys will suddenly turn into the sheer opposite to get the love & attention from their wives. Maybe tweek & modify some things they have been doing wrong, but in the end, I still think Nice Guys ROCK !
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Old 09-27-2010, 12:53 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Modern Men (Warning...long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEM11363 View Post
CP,
Exactly right. I dominate the situation - not the person. And even then ONLY when it is important to me. Most of the time it isn't and SHE is dominating the situation.

Perfect sense!!!
My husband lets me have my way a lot of times when it is just not a big deal, like which restaurant to go to or which department store to go to.

But, if it is something he doesn't like to do, I'd better shut up, never try more than once, because it is no use. And if it is something he wants to do, I'd better let him do, I don't want to piss him off and put him in a grouchy mood.

So for a man, you just need to know what makes you happy and what pisses you off. Don't give in to your woman if she is annoying you. Say no to her in a respectful but firm way, say yes to her when it doesn't bother you!!!
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:02 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Mem, I think you understand the dynamics of your relationship and are sharing your experience, open to suggestions, flexible and self assured. I'm sure your marriage benefits from this and you are helping others learn these same tools to apply to their marriage.

Big Bad Wolf doesn't come off as this type of character to me. He is more stringent and dominating specifically of his wife. In one post of his I remember reading that he thought all women enjoy being spanked. This sent yuck down my spine. Not because I care if his wife likes to be spanked every day of her life but because it's a very demeaning thing to assume all women like.

I like what Sister said. As it was saying that both need to speak up and care about the relationship they're in and get to know each other. It's not necessarily gender divided and it's a great injustice we do to ourselves to limit our visions of another based upon gender alone.
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:42 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Very big difference between dominating and being proactive. For me dominance has no part in my life. I do not want to dominate another human being. Never have and never will. Why? If I dominate I suppress. I will never suppress another person. I know I can dominate and I know domination is not me.

Initiate? Be proactive? I will always do that. I love that.

But oh boy Iíve had quite a few times in my life when Iíd love the love of my life to initiate and lead so I can follow and support. It never happened.

Bob
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:51 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Hereís a little story. I play squash, I love playing squash itís like physical aerial chess to me. I had a good buddy I enjoyed playing squash with. The time he could play with me was controlled by his wife. Twice even though my buddy and me had agreed the next time to play his wife changed the time.

Absolutely no way would I take a third change in time by his wife. I felt like his wife was controlling not only him but me as well by default. Neither my buddy or myself have played squash since. Women who control for the sake of control are seriously dysfunctional. They are missing a key ingredient of being a balanced human being.

Bob
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Old 09-27-2010, 04:15 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I think the word dominating may not be the right word, but aggressive and self assurance. I am a very easy going guy and I can be completely happy doing a myriad of different things. There are things though I have made a line in the sand and I have 0 tolerance for any deviation from that line. I hold myself and my loved ones to the same observance of those lines. As long as those lines are not crossed I am gentle, loving and I don't get angry easily. If someone crosses those lines though I have no problem becoming stern and as hard as nails. And no, I have never laid a finger, nor demeaned any of my loved ones or friends when angry.

I tend to be a very direct person and when my wife and I were dating, I told her the 4 things that I had to have in our relationship, there would be no discussion nor movement on my part for those 4 conditions. I also asked her at that time if there was anything she required for herself to be happy.

1. I will not tolerate disrespect to or against others. I will never belittle my wife or children verbally. I demand the same respect from them for me.

2. If you want/need something you will ask, you will not hint or poke around the edges. A perfect example was when I asked my wife where she wanted to go out to eat, she said she didn't care. I drove us to a seafood restaurant (she hates seafood with a passion) I refused to go anywhere else. And yes, if I am ever asked I will say what places sound good to me, etc.

3. If I express a deep want to do something, I expect that you will do your best to accommodate my needs. If you tell me something is important to you(like going shopping, etc) I will in turn do the same for you even if it's something I don't enjoy. It is a two way street though, I will not give you yours if my wishes are rejected.

4. A marriage is about two becoming one, a deeper relationship then just a friendship, as it involves intimacy. As a man I need and desire to be intimate with my wife. If I want just a friend, I can get a friend at any time. As my spouse, I desire you to be my friend and to be intimate with. I will do whatever it is you need I can to make sure I fulfill your emotional and other needs as a woman. I ask the same from you that you realize my physical needs as a man.

I know reading it I may come across as an aa$$hole to some. I consider it though being completely truthful with what makes me happy in life. I feel that being open about it was being kinder to her because she knew exactly what I needed from her as a wife.
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:55 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Domination in a social or political sense, I am in agreement with mostly what is being expressed, of course I am not advocating slavery or some form of it even on an emotional or psychological level, that is ridiculous.

Do not think for a minute I am surpressing or controling the personality or behavior of my wife nor would that be very likely for any man to do. ANyone who knows or would see my wife would assume in every sense she is sharp and intelligent and opinionated and not taking crap from anyone, very dominant herself and that is a fact.

But in the sexual sense, for the sexual structure to be at peak and prime, in my experience absolutely, there is one leader and one dominant partner, and sexually speaking that is the responsibility of the man, and in any relationship where sex is important then the man will strive to dominate, and the woman will strive to be dominated, even to the point where the woman, yes, will push her man to be this in some way or form.

If this is offensive to anyone then that is up to them to reconcile whether there experiences match up to their offense.

Be sure that at any time if my wife expressed she would rather be treated gender neutral and stop being turned on sexually day by day for so many years, of course I would respect such a decision but of course there would be consequences to the relationship for sure. This should not even need to be typed out but regardless here it is for anyone who really needs to see it.

In all my experiences with women, I have never seen any woman as turned on as she is when she is pursued in the dominant fashion, period. No amount of negotiation or talk or giving flowers or doing housework or any of these other 50/50 ideas have even come close. And I am saying not even in the same ballpark or even worth speaking of.

So much to say consistently seeing a woman on the verge of an orgasm often without much more than being touched, or begging her man to take her or begging her man to rip off her clothes or begging her man to allow her to do this or that to him, can you say this happens from a man doing housework? I dare anyone to compare.

It is clear there are many opinions shared that, while everyone has the right to their opinion, not every opinion is even worthwhile to be considered or replied to.

Any opinion to attempt to shame a man to "grow up" for expressing his sexual appetites or experiences will always fall under this category.

Non the less, this thread is borderline on some silly gender war, that is not beneficial to anyone and I would encourage everyone to share honestly and openly their own opinions backed with their experience, and to avoid needless accusations, as they will help no one.
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:06 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Okay, I've been a nice guy all my life. I'm still nice, but it has certainly made me a doormat more often than I'd like. Especially in my marriage. We guys do need to man up in many ways, but on the other hand I also feel that any woman (or man) who's response to someone being nice to them is to take advantage of their niceness is just sick, plain and simple.

For me, it's all about "what goes around comes around". That means if you're nice to me I will want to be nice to you. And if I'm being nice to you, I expect you will want to be nice back. I do not expect you to say to yourself "Great! Now I can get him to do even more chores and be even more submissive until he's nothing more than a child!".

This business about "we women will take advantage" speaks volumes about the character of those women. Don't you see that taking advantage worsens the situation? Can't you turn around and be a nice, decent human being right back at him instead of asserting control? I don't see why you'd want to run his life just because he won't fight back. It should be give and take from both sides.

I'm reminded of a response I read somewhere when a woman was asked what she wants in a man, and she said "I want a man who will tell me 'no', but I also want a man I can control." You want a man who will stick up for himself up to a point, but beyond that you want ultimate authority. What's so bad about losing control once in a while?

Also, how many of you women who have nice guy husbands have actually sat down and told him, point blank, that he's too submissive? If you haven't, why haven't you? And if you have, what was his reaction?

My extremely assertive wife has never, ever told me that she would love me more, be more sexual, and be a generally happier person if only I'd disregard her feelings more often. Why would anyone want that?
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